Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all! I'm new to the forum and I was just wondering about morph genetics. if we have hypo brb's, and we have anery brb's, why don't we have ghosts yet? seems like somebody should have done it already? or am I getting my in-crossings mixed up? until I saw the brb morphs, most have not really thrilled me. mostly I guess because colubrids are not really my thing, and I don't care what they're doing with corns. (and regualr phase balls have always been good enough for me!) I've searched through the forum for(what seemed like hours) and haven't found mention of an in-depth genetic explaination about morphs. (what crosses with what to make what?) if you guys have already covered this, by all means, don't take the time to write a new one! please just direct me to what page they're on as far as the forum is concerned. part of me hates to ask this without having read all the posts, but I've just got frustrated looking through the 'posibles', and looking at you're post shed snakes(beautiful though they may be... and they are!! I'm jealous) thank you ahead of time for any help you may give me. someday I hope to have a brb project.(or several... c'mmmmooooon lotto!)

Jim

Someone sounds a little impatient. Just kidding... kind of. There isn't a whole lot written on BRB morphs because they're fairly new. Same reason there are no ghosts...yet. Here's some light reading:

www.tooscaley.com/reptiles/BrazilianRainbowBoas/Hypomelanistic%20Lineage.html

Let me know what you think and please feel free to ask any further questions.

-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

it take at LEAST 2.5 years for a male to mature and the same for a female so there is no breeding with 14 month males so you have to have double hets, then you have to raise them so assuming you buy a baby anery and baby hypo you have 6 years at LEAST til you see a ghost, just time consuming then again most things in life are too
Bob

Mike, sorry for seeming impatient, that was not my intention. you said that you were thinking that anery is a dominant gene. does this mean that any hypo blood mixed into a het anery/hypo is lost?(as fa as continuing for ghost) I'm also assuming that they look like a normal phased brb. does this mean that the following cluch is like 25% likely to be double het? it's been a while since I did the mendelian sqares in biology... and I don't even remembe rhow double hets work. it seems like they'd look like plain-jane(if that could be said about brb's) snakes? so, yeah Bob, I'm seeing how this could take nearly forever considering half the time you ay not even know what you're working with! all this is making me think my project should be just for high-red, with straight anery to follow, should I win the lotto. thanks for the word, and thank you guysfor whatever headaches you may suffer from, and all the lack of sleep to boot! these double hets sound pretty complicated.

Jim,

Don't want to speak for Mike, but hypo and anery are separate mutations, independent of each other. One doesn't dominate the other. I believe what Mike means by dominant is that only one
of the anery gene pair needs to be the anery mutation in order for the snake to look/be anerythristic. I believe Mike proved hypo to be simple recessive, meaning that both of the hypo gene pair must be the mutation.

Time to dust off the old biology books...

Thanks,
Ed

>>Mike, sorry for seeming impatient, that was not my intention. you said that you were thinking that anery is a dominant gene. does this mean that any hypo blood mixed into a het anery/hypo is lost?(as fa as continuing for ghost) I'm also assuming that they look like a normal phased brb. does this mean that the following cluch is like 25% likely to be double het? it's been a while since I did the mendelian sqares in biology... and I don't even remembe rhow double hets work. it seems like they'd look like plain-jane(if that could be said about brb's) snakes? so, yeah Bob, I'm seeing how this could take nearly forever considering half the time you ay not even know what you're working with! all this is making me think my project should be just for high-red, with straight anery to follow, should I win the lotto. thanks for the word, and thank you guysfor whatever headaches you may suffer from, and all the lack of sleep to boot! these double hets sound pretty complicated.

brought up much but it has to be the number one topic of the hard core brb fanatics (even the guys who only own a indigo) That is not only 6 years but that is even if they can put on the size for you and want to breed (female), and hopefully once the male smells those pheromones then he wants some but the keyword is hopefully. Some the next time you have a brain fart, just post that puppy and high reds are very nice and truely hard to come by
Bob

Hey, I used to own a BRB, so please don't kick me out of the club!

>>brought up much but it has to be the number one topic of the hard core brb fanatics (even the guys who only own a indigo) That is not only 6 years but that is even if they can put on the size for you and want to breed (female), and hopefully once the male smells those pheromones then he wants some but the keyword is hopefully. Some the next time you have a brain fart, just post that puppy and high reds are very nice and truely hard to come by
>>Bob

Hey Jim,

I was only kidding about the impatient thing. You're asking some really good questions. Unfortunately, I can't answer most of them yet. I'm hoping to prove anerythrism is a recessive trait in 2009 or 2010. At the same time, I'd like to produce the first ghost BRBs. So far, I have produced two clutches of what may be "double hets" (Each snake is carrying one copy of the heypo gene and one copy of the anery gene). You are correct, these animals look like "normal" Brazilians. I believe Ed is also correct in that anery and hypo are two separate genes. Hypo melnism wouldn't be lost in an anery. It would combine with it to produce something new (fingers crossed).

Again, excellent questions. Keep them coming!
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Brian Sharp only done a het x het breeding

TC in the ads has done a het x het breeding from WC stock and Jeff Serrao animals

how does Seib do his breeding Mike, anery mother x het father??

so only a visual x visual left to breed together from the same line correct?

How many lines are there Mike of anerythism? Sharp, Seib, yourself (hypo male #2 compatible with the Seib line) and TC.

sorry for all the ?'s but it happens when I get excited how's school going for you btw?
Bob

is another thing altogether but cool though, very cool

ok, that's what I though originally. genes that can be passed on in the same gamete. I'm still kinda cofused why there'd be any questin whether anery is a recessive trait. wouldn't that be proven in the f1 outcrossing? or have you just not got to that point yet?

and yeah, I've shopped for the high reds, and I know that 'hard to come by' is a euphemism for 'you'll pay out your nose for these'. but Brian Hummel has some(crossed Tim Frazier) het hypos that he says are really red. he does good stuff, so as soon as I have the scratch, I think he's my guy.(or maybe I should have kept that to myself?) anyway, if somebody beats me to it, that's the name of the game, right?

again, thanks for the word guys!

Jim

Hey Mike,

Sorry if you've covered this already, but I'm curious what changed your mind about the anery mutation (ie ,from being dominant to being recessive.) Assuming it is simple recessive, that would mean the hypo you cited on your web page (7/31/06 update) was het for anery, correct? Given there seem to be
several "lines" as well, maybe whatever is causing the anerythrism isn't all that uncommon??

Anyway, good luck figuring it out, sounds like a lot of effort and time is needed to do that.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Hey Jim,
>>
>>I was only kidding about the impatient thing. You're asking some really good questions. Unfortunately, I can't answer most of them yet. I'm hoping to prove anerythrism is a recessive trait in 2009 or 2010. At the same time, I'd like to produce the first ghost BRBs. So far, I have produced two clutches of what may be "double hets" (Each snake is carrying one copy of the heypo gene and one copy of the anery gene). You are correct, these animals look like "normal" Brazilians. I believe Ed is also correct in that anery and hypo are two separate genes. Hypo melnism wouldn't be lost in an anery. It would combine with it to produce something new (fingers crossed).
>>
>>Again, excellent questions. Keep them coming!
>>-----
>>Mike Lockwood
>>www.tooscaley.com

Jim,
..Excellent questions and super good replies so far. A couple other things to consider. People breeding Balls and Cornsnakes often breed them at 18 months of age. With Brazilian Rainbow Boas most are not mature until 30 to 42 months. This makes the multi generational turn around time for producing combination morphs such as ghosts way longer. Also, with Cornsnakes you can almost be certain that a healthy adult will breed for you and produce good eggs. With Rainbow Boas there are some that never seem to breed. I have CB Rainbow Boas that are over 10 years old and doing great but have never produced a baby. Also, anerythristic BRBs have been unlike anerythristics of other species. There seem to be several lines of anerythristics and most have not been proven as heritable yet and also babies that look totally anerythristic often grow up and slowly change to looking somewhat normal.
Jeff

>>Hi all! I'm new to the forum and I was just wondering about morph genetics. if we have hypo brb's, and we have anery brb's, why don't we have ghosts yet? seems like somebody should have done it already? or am I getting my in-crossings mixed up? until I saw the brb morphs, most have not really thrilled me. mostly I guess because colubrids are not really my thing, and I don't care what they're doing with corns. (and regualr phase balls have always been good enough for me!) I've searched through the forum for(what seemed like hours) and haven't found mention of an in-depth genetic explaination about morphs. (what crosses with what to make what?) if you guys have already covered this, by all means, don't take the time to write a new one! please just direct me to what page they're on as far as the forum is concerned. part of me hates to ask this without having read all the posts, but I've just got frustrated looking through the 'posibles', and looking at you're post shed snakes(beautiful though they may be... and they are!! I'm jealous) thank you ahead of time for any help you may give me. someday I hope to have a brb project.(or several... c'mmmmooooon lotto!)
>>
>>Jim

that makes a whole lot of sense. the perspective I was coming from is that I was thinking that breeders have had a longer time to deal with this, and I wasn't factoring in the sheer amount of time it is taking. I sold off all my herps over ten years ago when I went to college, and I haven't been paying much attention since. I've just decided to pick it up again, and durring the course of expanding my collection again,(and having to choose from a buffet of breeding projects) it just seemed like the hobby/industry would be leaps and bounds ahead of where I left it. I've noticed some HUGE changes in availability, but inother places I guess I was just expecting too mch. but I very much like the fact that there are over half a dozen cage/rack manufacturers now. we've come a long way since the days of me trying to make a home made incubator for my sinolans(I guess I have too) I'm just glad the days of the 'selfaddressed, stamped envelope' days are over to get your california zoological supply catalog!
Jim

Jim,
...It is pretty neat that we have come so far in recent years compared to the time before that. I was sending self addressed stamped envelopes from the 60s thru the early 90s to the importers and they were mostly selling the same stuff in all their price lists. Most of the animals for sale today were not on those price lists.
Jeff

>>that makes a whole lot of sense. the perspective I was coming from is that I was thinking that breeders have had a longer time to deal with this, and I wasn't factoring in the sheer amount of time it is taking. I sold off all my herps over ten years ago when I went to college, and I haven't been paying much attention since. I've just decided to pick it up again, and durring the course of expanding my collection again,(and having to choose from a buffet of breeding projects) it just seemed like the hobby/industry would be leaps and bounds ahead of where I left it. I've noticed some HUGE changes in availability, but inother places I guess I was just expecting too mch. but I very much like the fact that there are over half a dozen cage/rack manufacturers now. we've come a long way since the days of me trying to make a home made incubator for my sinolans(I guess I have too) I'm just glad the days of the 'selfaddressed, stamped envelope' days are over to get your california zoological supply catalog!
>>Jim

this much is certainly true!

another thing I was just musing over is remembering the days when I'd have to ask mom if I could hang ANOTHER shelf in my room for a few more ten gallons! "really mom, three more kingsnakes will really be the last ones, I promise.) it never was, of course.

and about what's availible today... well, I decided to strictly focus on small to medium boids for future projects. and after a little research I almost hypervenelated when I realized I -MAY- eventually find someone with ringed pythons!(although I haven't been very lucky in that respect yet) another example is woma's are a bit more within reach as far as cost is concerned. yes, these are very exciting times!

Jim

I was totally unaware of CB BRB's not breeding. While you have many more adults than I have, I've not come accross any that didn't breed.

Current experience limited to 6.10 animals 2004 and older all bred for me.

I also have another 1.2 2004's 1.1 were not even attempted to breed and 0.1 was in a breeding group but did not breed.

One other odd one I have is Boo, Born in 1994, she's now pushing 14. Her first breeding was in 2001 at 7 years old (before and even then I didn't know what I was doing - as if that's changed). For her first 3 breedings she gave mostly slugs with a few stills. Then in 2004, 31 babies followed by 26, 26 and 23. She's taking this year off, well deserved rest.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Sorry to jump in late, was away on vacation....

Looks like all the details were covered already, only one point to add....

There are several cutting edge, not-yet-proven, not generally available morph projects being worked..

Albino - self explanatory
Calico - scattered white scales
Pearl - Side patterns full crescent color
Stripe - Connected patterns either sides or dorsal

Also a few pattern "phases" yeah genetic but not simple genetic, more of a line or look

Walsh clown phase - none produced that I know of after the original animals
Bullseye - crescents stretched around to become circles
Blush - Crescent color speckled into side patterns
Eclipse - Lack of crescents
Abberent - mixed up patterning

-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

yeah, I was thinking thatSOMEBODY had to be working on some of those! for instance the stripe brb, it's a no-brainer. should be a matter of simple line breeding, assuming it's just a recesive trait. all good stuff, thanks for the word!

Jim

LOL, everyone already knows I have and am working with these and many more.....

Genevieve, side striped

Zoe, dorsal striped

Ziggy, Dorsal striped

Lon - Blush

Wacko - aberrent

Ozzy - aberrent

Hook, bullseye (have several others as well)

Apricot - Pearl

Baroque - Pearl

Fluffy - Calico

-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

OOOOOOH YEEEAAAH, I've been to your website. although I don't think you have any 'boroach's(I knew I'd forget how to spell it, although I had to learn the word in art history class!) posted on your website. that's amazing stuff, man! well done!

I just intend to pursue the high reds. it's frustrating to me that most people now are going for the oranges, and they just don't do it for me. to each their own, I guess. but yeah, you're doing incredible things! wish I had the space to have several different projects at once, but right now I live in an apartment. I'm cnsidering moving into a two bedroom though, just so I could have a dedicated snake room. we'll see how it goes.

thanks for the pics, by the way!

Jim

I like them both, red and orange and have both, not enough red ones yet but am working on it.

Baroque is on the collection - BRB page, next to last male along with Pistachio, the other pearl male.

Thanks for the kind words, there should be some amazing animals coming out of my house in the next several years!!!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

heck yeah man! good luck!

Dave, I was just looking at your collection page and was jsut wondering whether Pistachio and Aubergine are from the same litter? also I'm wondering if you're going to pursue a line of pearls that have broken, or non exhistant lateral circles. I know you seem to prefer to go for cresents or the nice white circles... just wanted to know if you're going to make a divergance into something else as well.

sorry about the late post and all, just suddenly became very curious. thanks
Jim

All 8 of the parles are littermates, I bought the whole litter. Not sure exactly what you mean but first plan of order is to make more just like them. Then will mix with my other animals and see what can get. Something cool pops out, I'll make more of that as well!!!

I already have some of what I call eclipse phase where there is little or no crescent.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats