Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hiking in cent. fla. I found five reds and three 17" kings, not bad for 2 hours of hunting...too bad it me 6 hours to find them, I think we will have two inches of rain before I go do that again, the ground is too dry to get them up into the tree stumps in my opinion. I was in S fla the other day and found the fla.kings in clewiston are not moving possible due to lack of rain or it's just still to soon.

Not too bad. I noticed the corns were small. Did you find them in the same type locations as the SK's? What type of cover...tin, boards, sandbags?
Bob

heck of a herp day for February, awesome stuff! any worries concerning the kings eating the corns?

Never happened at least not in my bags been huntin 20 years, but the reds are bigger than even a 20 king and I think the fact that their all stressed from being bagged keeps them content.JB

All were found between 9am and 3:30 pm in pine tree stumps, in a normal winter season I'd find a red in every 8-12 treestumps and a king in every 15-25 stumps, the dry ground keeps them content underground...we need rain!

That's a nice score, but why are they all in that bag? Are you really going to keep 6 Scarlet Kings plus those corns?

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

I think I've been through this too many times... you probaly think we should stop driving to stop killing snakes. or you are just goofing off and playing dumb, because I know that you are smarter than that Chris....you know damn well why their in that bag...you silly! come on! those snakes pay for the gas that I spent looking for the snake that I would like to see in twenty years AT LEAST in captivity, the Florida Pinesnake. I only hunt lands taged for developtment so if you all want to sleep oK the snakes in the bag were due to be terminated. and yes I saved them... and lets have this conversation in the near future when you'll see zoos anxious for some kid to come in with some snake they haven't seen in twenty years. do you think they'll tell him to let it go or try to propagate? don't start trouble with me ya all, I'm as sickened by the fact that were are loosing snakes too but swallow the pill...thousands of species have met their demise before we were born and in a hundred years from now I'd be astonished if we are still here... JB

I have to agree. Growing up in Fla I saw alot of habitat destroyed. Example is Tree Tops park in Davie. Before that "park" was built, I found everything from Indigo's to EDB's. Where their parking lot is located covered my "magical sk spot". So go figure. I could go on and on...same story. Once upon a time, I found a magical spot, only to return and find it developed. It is saddening when you return to such a place, knowing you did not take any of the herps you saw...which impressed you...and now it cannot hold those creatures...and you know they are dead and gone without hopes of offspring.
Just my take on it.
Bob

We judge ourselves by our intentions...others judge us by our actions.

Michael Coone
Conover, NC

so you actually make a point to avoid even the most prime habitat if it's not posted for development?right....
god knows how much microhabitat had to be trashed for that take,esp. in those less-than-ideal conditions you described.....between all that stump peeling/ripping and the cruising for a mugitus-how do you find the time,no day job?
i can hardly think of a more inefficient way to pay for gas than selling small wild caught colubrids,esp. species now bred so much in captivity that they're inavoidable online....
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Beleive it or not we Humans are also "naturel" and part of NATURE. you'll disagree but the Wind makes Trees fall and destroys the TALL Tree used by BIRDS to nest "Damn the wind, do we J ?" then the tree lays on ground and rots and a snake moves into the DESTROYED? tree and I find it before some OTHER NATURAL predetor like fire ants or a racoon, ...last I checked we were inhabitants of earth too, that makes us like the wind...but many more small snakes are NOT found, and in my opinion we will always have small snakes around the wild parts of the state it's the big snakes we should worry about and in fact "We should be amazed not that the snakes are disappearing but that we still have any left! I'm not the Monster that you think I'am and your probaly not the sissy tree hugger I picture you as but, anyway I do put the change I make in the tank, since work IS very slow, and I do pay the state to collect and sell wildlife so don't give me a hard time, and I post here for the kind people whom DO WISH to see what is STILL out there, not to be harassed by booksmart crybabies, I'll say this again, The snakes don't stand a chance, the "one per person" policy is only increasing the loss of future chances of propagating the already rare Mugitus, lots of people breed Indigos in CA. but my problem is it seems no one breeds the south Florida color variant Pines, and my generation will surely be the last to still see wild Pinesnakes south of Tampa. J try not to be so damn negative, all the things you found so hard to beleive in my previous post are 100% true and I obay all laws and have welcomed Game Officals into my house before and would again anytime, so relax...JB

I have to side with JD here. Granted, if you're gassing hidey holes or ripping every last piece of bark within grasp just to make a buck....someone needs to whack you on your peewee head. But if you're collecting a few animals to finance your quest and you're successful, more power to you. I'm sure JD has had a few of those days in his quest where nothing was found and it was all out of pocket for nothing. I am still, and always will be a believer that...in good habitat, collectors will never be able to do the damage development and pollution can do. In fact, with good habitat shrinking everyday, just as deer hunting culls the population and helps to keep the herd healthy, some collecting most likely helps to keep populations in check. A good example would be the cornsnakes in the Okeetee area of S. Carolina. That area has been heavily collected for over 80 years, yet, today you can still go there in springtime, and under good conditions find 10 adult Corn's in a single day.
Just my 2 cents,
Bob

The kings (G.floridana) in clewston are still common too, I seen 11 males in one morning last year, and yellow rat snakes are also everywhere. Sometimes I hunt the same trees year after year like on roadsides,I can get a snake out of the same tree every year. also I do often approach a tree stump intending on checking it out and have to focus to realize I had checked it out previously just moments beforehand, I only remove the loosest pieces of bark and leave as much as possible. and also stack discarded bark in layers on the flatwoods floor so as to provide the same multi layered micro habitat I also pull up evasive trees like Brazilian peppertree and cogon grass.I would also carry fire ant killer if it was not so heavy.

"i'm amazed we have any snakes left!"-said the man with a sac-full-o-snakes...lol
...but i stand by my first remarks.your philosophical explanation as to why you do what you do is just that-an explanation,not a justification.but hey you've got your opinion,i have mine.innocent until proven guilty,etc...agree to disagree...however,what you can't prove is that the specimens you collect don't hurt that local population of the species;nor can i prove that it does,but simple mathematics is on my side...
i did't call you a monster tough guy,but this 'sissy tree hugger' will be down your way soon enough,and could debate this matter face to face-unless the weather's too nice......some advice-save up,and buy yourself a camera(if that's not too sissified for you),chances are you'll want to collect memorable images more and collect specimens less....btw i don't know this s. florida strain of mugitus you mention but lots of folks including myself do breed the subspecies....

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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

That Pine looks like panhandle variant, I say that because of the black anterior, and just so you know I'm not mad at you J remember you poked me...I only said sissy tree hugger because of your super sencitive comments to me. collecting on the level that I do dosen't affect population counts anyway. some of the places I hunt other than pre-developments are in the paths of hurricanes where there are no less tham a million pinetrees laying down in the flatwoods for thousands of acres, and roadsides where snakes wadger their lives for food,I'm sure you would reconcile with me,and I'll bet you'd be quieter with one of those nice yellow scarletkings in you hand too...JB

you not to put detailed info on a website on how/where to find. You were pretty vague about location, which is good, but a little more specific than I would like about the how to. You may be going about things legally, but my experience tells me that 90% of the guys who head out in the woods looking for snakes (especially the inexperienced field herpers) do not get the appropriate permits and do not respect the environment the way the experienced guys do. Newbee's will read your initial post and head out in the woods in scores in an effort to tear every stump apart in hopes of scoring scarlet kings and corns without giving thought to the fact that there are much more efficient and less destructive means to find these animals. I have learned this the hard way...giving people knowledge of sites and methods and watching them come back...year after year...bring different people with them each time...all of them collecting and tearing up everything they find...only to take them back to either grow tired of them and let them waste away or sell them to someone who will usually do the same. Kind of makes me sick.

I'm not judging you bro. I have caught snakes in the wild and sold/traded them on occasion...I've had permits to do so in NC for the past 5 years...maybe done this with half a dozen snakes in that time...so I'm no different/better than you.

I do not think that one person can make a huge negative impact on a population of animals that spend the majority of their time underground, especially if that person lets a code of ethics guide his decision-making as to where he collects from and what he collects, BUT I do think that by giving knowledge out to an infinite number of people, you take the risk of those people making a negative impact on the population. At the same time, we want to share our successes and experiences...what's a man to do?

Good luck out there. I want to see photos of those pines when you find them...Just be careful about how much info you give out as to where and how you found them...

Michael Coone
Conover, NC

Micheal, Good post. Yes, I too have shared locations and methods only to find them trashed by people who apparently have no wish to ever visit that spot again. Even for those who collect what they find, it's disappointing to see folks who lack the understanding that if you put things back the way you found them, you will most likely find something the next time you visit. Not to mention, the worst of the lot are the gassers...those that will gas stump holes, tortoise burrows, rock crops...etc. It is sad to return and see not even insects will live in these once bountiful herp holes.
Bob

NOT A STORY! I swear I seen an albino indigo's tail, maybe 20" or so going down a hole (big orange smooth scales) and could only contemplate comming back year after year to see if I could spot it again, but you can't imagine how many creditable snake people have suggested gassing the hole...I only wanted to see it not kill it! and btw I have only seen indigos in the spot in ten years and am convinced that indigos have consumed all the other species,and I think that is common where ever they do dominate the habitat. JB PS Imagine gassing the only albino indigo.

Jo, I think you are right, indigos will eat the herps out from under them, fortunately for them, frogs are ever abundant in most of their habitat. That is my findings here in south Texas.
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Todd Hughes

What is the problem if he wants to keep them?is he breaking the law?Maybe he is a licensed commercial collector and that is how he makes money.Way to many people jump all over a guy because "HE" thinks they are doing something wrong.

if the area was to be developed in the near future, i have no problem legally taking all the animals found. if the area is NOT being developed in the near future, i think the commercial collectors going there are like bounty hunters, anything for a buck. just my 2 cents.

I have been breeding eastern coachwhips and releasing them on my beaches where they used to be common, now all I see are rats cross those trails and I never sold one of them. My focus now is finding Southern Pinesnake to propagate, the Kings and Reds are just a way of paying for it. And I am licenced to sell wildlife although its not my trade, I'm a self employed Craftsmen. But I do think the Pinesnakes are pretty much gone from Tampa-south and I spend alot of free time hiking, and driving...Its a passion not a business...I'm not in this for money and I only hunt for four months a year. JB

This one is from kissimmi st.cloud area and they get even cleaner and lighter in the south where I hike.

I also believe in take what you need,leave the rest.and once breeding groups are established or single specimens are found and added to your group or collection leave the rest.only put on your plate what you are gonna eat.using animals to fund other projects is nothing new and i see nothing wrong with it.And i feel that new blood needs to get into these breeding groups for a little diversity.

By the way that pine is stunning.I have always been fond of pituophis,especially pines.it is a shame that they are disappearing.much luck with reestablishing them.

john

The last good place to find southern pine snakes in the Tampa Bay area has just been razed for the new fair grounds. I lived there for 33 years and saw four live ones in hillsborough county. They all were high white animals with very little markings on them.

Dan

.....looking for something more like this...

:Mark

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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Congrats on the photo winning. classic! that pic will be around forever but too bad the gene won't.

Oh well.
I saw someone (non-herper of course)post a pic elsewhere of a 3'er from the same area last month. Looked pretty nice.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Wow Mark...that is an awsome pine. Was it wild caught or captive bread? Lightest one I seen in the Tampa Bay area wasn't quite that nice...but it was close.

Dan

It was found by a friend north of the Bay area.
Very little color at all. I like 'em with the red/rust tails.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

JB...Having spent 30+ years living in Florida, I've had the pleasure to find many herps from the Keys to Appalachicola. Pituophis is more common than they seem, due to their pref to live underground. For some reason, I've found them above ground most frequently in Orange and Polk Counties. However, the lightest colored animals I've found were in Indian River and St. Lucie County. I also found a white animal in Broward County near the PB line. But that was in the mid 80's. Just something to think about in your quest to find them.
Good Luck, Bob

Thanks Bob for the info...I know that people don't keep track of pines like they do indigos or the EDB (I mean officals) But I have found snake carcases in hog rut in open fields with holes and the carcases are big enough to pines, and since they stay in shallow tunnels and the pigs sence of smell is 500 times greater than a dogs they dont stand a chance even the fire ants find eggs and I see eveidence I a place I concider a pine hot spot whwer I would find big sheds every year and see pines poking their heade up in fields and In those same ares today... no sheds and no heads poking up in the grass...

That is really interesting. It is amazing to me what different expreinces people will have in the field. Like you Bob, I have over 33 years of exprience in Florida too, and in that itme I have seen hundreds of indigos, and only 4 pine snakes (alive). I've seem another 12 DOR. I guess it is where and how we hunt. I've spent alot of time in Polk county and have never seen a pine there. It would seem to me though, that a snake that has such large babies would have a high survival rate. You're going to have to share your secret with me one day.

Dan

Dan, I have so many stories about herping in Fl., I've threatened to write a book. The irony of Pituophis in Fl. is, with the exception of a yearling found road cruzin' at night in Appalachicola, almost all of my finds were animals out crawling in the heat of the day late spring and early summer. Like you, I've seen 100's of Drymarchon all over the state. Like the Pines, I've always encounterd them out and about during the day, exceptions being like the pine above, and an indigo that lived in the wall of a pump shed, prob waiting to eat unsuspecting Elaphe...haha. Then there was the pine I was called out to by Animal Control in Hobe Sound that was inside a screen porch. That shouldn't count as a "natural" find. But it was an awesome animal....very little brown..mostly all patternless and white. Go figure.
Bob

By the way...since this started as a L.t. elapsoides post, bringing back memories, I remember finding in Hollywood Fl an SK that was solid black and yellow. No red at all. This was in the late 70's and at that time wasn't thought to be much more than a neat looking morph...no $ signs for potential breeding. Ahh how times have changed!
Bob

Bob, that has been my exprience also. I'm sure you are like me and have spent alot of time in the field and not just road cruising. Of the four live ones that I have seen in my 33 years of living in Florida, three of them where seen in early afternoon and one in early morning coiled on a rodent hole sunning itself. The one found in early morning was found in 1973 in a place where florida kings were abundant. Also, they were all spotted in spring. I seen a DOR in Baker county with swamp on both sides of the road and one on I-75 going through Paynes Praire! Couldn't beleive my eyes and turned around and went back...and sure enough it was a 5' pinesnake squashed on the road in the middle of Paynes Prairie! I guess those pines just never read the book and didn't know that they were in the wrong habitats. The funny thing about two of the pines that I did see that were alive....I told my wife those mornings before I left, that I was going to go find a pine snake...and did. But...thinking about it...I've told here hundreds of times that I was going to go do that and well...you know how pinesnakes are....they are where you find them.

Dan

......unless you're just relocating them,your adding to the problem
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Actually, relocating is a very bad idea. Most populations of animals are considered it be isolated units living on shrinking islands of habitat. Those populations have evolved to be resistant to specific environmental hazards, from parasites, pollution, weather, food availabilty..the list goes on. Releasing an animal into an area other than where it was found, just because others of the same species exist there can be a death sentence to both the released animal as well as to the local population. Check out some of the blunders that "Operation Rattler Rescue" had in the New England States back in the 80's and 90's. So you're right, "this ain't the 70's". We have learned alot more.
Bob

I have only released the Eastern Coachwhips so far on beachs where I'm confidant they have been totaly whiped out during the construction era 1960's-1990's but now rats are all thats common and the building is complete... Oh and just so you know your information was notated for WC Adults being released not fresh hatched neonates, newly hatched pinesnakes will also do fine released in land tracts and wildlife parks where the ferrel hogs are reduced or absent. JB

JB, I have to agree...with a bit of reservation, about releasing cb neonates. However, I would still be hesitant to do so because, one....if there are ANY of the native population still in existance, the efforts may be futile for the animals released...and two, (and I have had this argument with the bio guys who work for the State of Fl) it is against the law to release any exotic or NATIVE animal into the wild according to the Fl. Game Comm. folks in Tallahassee. I could tell this story here..it's a bit long...(and the last reason they gave me was absurd)...but I'd rather not bore the folks on this forum. If you are interested, email me at Herpdoc133@yahoo.com.
Bob

That law is in place to prevent people from collecting the Gopher Tortoise and infecting other coloneys by releasing into different locations but the same law PREVENTS knowledgeable individuals with the resources they (the lawmakers) lack to preform these most nobel of intentions, and with only the snakes wellbeing at the forefront, I'm breaking the law? People that breed and release native species are not the same people that unknowingly capture and release adults into the wrong type or un suitable or unsustainable habitat. and when the baby boomers are out of commission and new thinkers are appointed in their positions breeders will be paid by the state for their efforts. JB

Don't count on it JB. Most state positions are held by people that didn't quite make the cut in the private arena. State government...Fed as well, doesn't pay enough to capture the really good graduates.
Bob

...we can only hope the findings of those lower ranking(in terms of prestige and $$$) individuals on the front line/in the field ultimately do find their way up to those in positions of more power sooner than later while the clock ticks...
one bright spot-those in the know can often get granted permission for important relocation(or reintroduction) projects but the law may help discourage too many others from doing so,esp. those good-intentioned but less informed ones....btw i hear this concern voiced often but rarely do i hear mention of specific cases as examples of proof why not to do so.not saying i doubt the reality of such concerns over introducing harmful pathogens/parasites/critters,etc. to unsuspecting populations, but i am curious to hear of some specific cases if anyone can name some.i would suspect most of the time such health-compromised individuals don't survive long enough in new/foreign surroundings,being outcompeted by the healthier native individuals.

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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

definitely some important points you bring up herpdoc but comparing montane,communal-denning horridus to either of the solitary coastal plain species pictured-elapsoides or guttata-is just comparing apples to oranges.....generally speaking,when enough factors are taken into proper consideration relocations can be successful.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Just an aside to the debate -- I'm actually in possession of the bagged SK's and I must say thanks to Joe's help in the matter I have an entire new locality to incorporate into my growing elapsoides groupings. By the way they all shed out and frankly that pic does them no justice! They are some of the nicest freshly caught WC snakes I've had the pleasure of coming across in a while! I'll get some pics up on the milk forum soon enough... amazing animals Joe.... thanks alot!

Chris

Dude that second one is killer!

D.E.

Damn! the yellow on that one is too much did you probe them yet they may be two females?

That one is very unique. I'd like to see a picture of the vent side of that one. I've never seen one like that.

Those are some others I've got laying around... haven't gotten pics of yours' yet and no I haven't probed them either -- going to try to assess their feeding this week and go from there. The second female in particular is from Lake County... and I haven't really ever seen anything quite like her myself. Just got word literally this morning that I have male locale counterparts to work with... good week SK-wise!

Chris

yeah ...you never thought that it may not be good to take that many out of the wild though your 2o years or collecting....definately not herping .thers a dfference .one involve a respect for nature and what lives there ....thats herping
just my opinion
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1.0 Amelanistic greatplains ratsnake
0.1 Greatplains ratsnake
0.1 Amelanistic Cornsnake
0.1 Virginia cornsnake
1.1 Everglades Ratsnake
0.1 Greenish ratsnake
1.1 Texas Ratsnake
0.1 Black ratsnake
1.1 Speckled kingsnake
1.0 abberant northwestern garter
0.1 Oregon Red sided gartersnake
1.0 Leopard Gecko
1.0 green iguana
and a bangin @ss drumset

In my State The FWC or Florida Wildlife Commission has created WMAs or Wildlife Management Areas, these are typicaly the largest areas of Unurbanized Lands available (All Snakes last standing ground!) and also where the NON native Spanish Hog is allowed to feast on large and small Snakes and their Eggs at will, these Hogs sence of smell is known to be 500 times greater than that of a Dogs, which brings to mind the phrase I keep repeating ...that "The Snakes Don't Stand A Chance!" in Florida. Not to mention what is being done to combat the Fireant or Cogongrass, Major Roadways that penetrate these WMAs don't even have at least Siltscreen for Barriers. My 20 years in the field as a Class III Collector have throughly convinced me that "The Snakes numbers in Florida are declining at a rate of 0 to 60 MPH and started in the 1950's" If I had to guess where we were right now I'd say approaching 55 MPH, Time is short either Kill off the Ferral Pigs or Take HUGE advantage of the numerous Citizens qualified by Passion and Experience only (No Certificate Required!) Maybe just register with the FWC as Breeders, ...but these Citizens like myself would more than happy to feed and breed the Indigo and Pinesnake... and out of my own pocket all year long! and I further still would NOT have a problem with NOT being allowed to sell these animals, all hatched would or could be registered and donated to Zoos and Parks and other Enthusiast. Imagine seeing abundant Indigos for the first time in Florida Parks and another Park could have Pinesnakes and Diamondbacks and no indigos, ...but I also want to state that it is my profound belief that releasing native snakes into New Designated Lands IS actually VERY viable and that the Officals at the FWC have truly in-sufficiant Data showing Desease speading and could have asked Breeders whom have mated wild snakes to other localities for years without problems and ask people like me whom have seen the Eastern Coachwhip disappear on Beaches and been Replenished by a few clutches of a different locality (years before it was illegal) submit! and it might take a miracle! because time is short if we all stopped catching wild snakes right now in twenty years from now all we will have will be albinos or some morph with eight eyes and two heads because of all the crossing going on right now, or on the other hand we could have many Breeders pumping out native snakes for all the Parks and places where nature is way out of balance. Personally I'd kill off all wild boar and let the snake breeders go nuts! but the State want's Revenue/Funds from the Hog Hunters and from permit holders like me, but after issuing my permit I'm told I can't collect anywhere but on Private lands...so I have to treaspass? to make a liven...? sorry FWC and Mr.Rodney Barreto no disrespect but are we thinking like a Baby Boomer, I have good intentions and one other thing Mr. Barreto, the folks that do breed snakes out of passion for fear of loosing them are not the type of folks that need to be governed by a law implicated to insure survival of the species that they breed, and if you could ask the snake he'd say I'm with Joe... sincerley, Joe Bernardo Sarasota, Florida. "Perhaps we should be amazed not that the snakes are disappearing but that the snakes are still here at all!"