Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Of course we all know it is only a coincidence that this inflammatory (and highly dubious) "potential range map" appears at the same time as the USFWS proposal....

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1875&from=rss_home
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

These people have obviously never maintained a burm. Most will succumb to respiratory diseases if kept at temps in the low 70's!
Not to mention the humidity factor. This is absurd!
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

That range map is just another example of Governement incompetency.

I copied this quote from the USGS map page. Global Warming? They are basing climate matches for these snakes on computer models of global warming?

"The maps show where climate alone would not limit these snakes. One map shows areas in the U.S. with current climatic conditions similar to those of the snakes' native ranges. A second map projects these "climate matches" at the end of this century based on global warming models, which significantly expands the potential habitat for these snakes."

OH I FORGOT Computer Models are ALWAYS Accurate and never flawed. All scientists in the world agree that global warming is happening( i am being sarcastic there is ALOT of disagreement on whether or not global warming is happening and the evidence I have seen show that it isn't).
These people are f^%$^%$%^ morons. But hey, you must Love our disgusting, bloated, rotten carcase of government, or you aren't right in the head!!!!
LOVE YOUR GOVERNMENT AND YOU WILL WANT FOR NOTHING!!!!!
yeah right .....

www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article/article?f=/c/a/2008/02/21/MNABV5PP3.DTL

Some highlights from this article:

Love this line...
>>>The giant snakes are slithering from Florida toward the Bay Area, very slowly to be sure, but inexorably. And they can strangle and eat an entire alligator.
All those alligators in SF Bay better watch out!

And this...
>>>Another python made it as far as Vero Beach, Fla., on the Atlantic coast. Vero Beach is the spring training site for the Los Angeles Dodgers, but the team has not reported any casualties,

And my favorite...
>>>At 20 miles a month, a determined Burmese python from Florida could arrive in San Francisco as early as August 2020.

Another great line...
>>> As for other potential prey, human beings - like rodents, beavers and deer - are mammals, government scientists confirmed.
So, it's official. The pythons plan to take over the southern US and eat us all

The SF Gate article from above has a wide assortment of entertaining, frustrating, and REALLY stupid comments.

Here is my favorite:
>>>Our greatest concern should be the inter-species breeding that will occur between these pythons and the rattlesnakes that live in the high deserts and in the Sierras. The largest verified rattlesnake measured was six feet long. After inter-breeding with these pythons, we will have rattlesnakes twenty feet long. N.B.: The pythons lay 100 eggs at a time. If only ten of these pythons are successful in crossing the Sierras and inter-breeding with the native rattlesnakes, there will be 12,000 giant rattlesnakes invading San Francisco in 12 years. For more details, see Laurence Klauber's "Rattlesnakes: Their Habits, Life Histories, and Influence on Mankind." UC Press, 2nd edition, 1972.

Ha! Ha! Now, that was hilarious! Thank you so much for posting that! I knew there was a pony somewhere in all this horse sh-t.

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I'd love to type a witty remark, but i am do busy lmao. I hope you understand.
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-Jacob

Why do people say .02 cents??? So, what, your opinion is only worth a 50th of a cent?

This is a prime example of irresponsible journalism. I am sure that the author and editor of this took the story and tried to pump it up with some humor but in the process they have some very misleading “facts”. They make it sound like these animals will make it to the bay area one way or another with enough time and nothing can stop that. It is also pointed out that humans would be a source of prey. Gordon Rodda should not be allowed to talk about this stuff and Steve Rubenstein should not be allowed to write about it… they both seem to be making up crap as they go... beavers will speed them along to the bay area? This seems like it was all done in order to install a sense of fear in the uninformed public, they will believe this crap. In fact we should all email Steve Rubenstein using the link on his article to let him know what we think of this kind of junkalism. I mean he is even advising that everybody run to the hills to avoid the python migration with the only problem being not enough room up in the higher elevations for everybody.

Leave comments on his article
Send him your opinion in an email
And send an email to Gordo using my link below…

Have a good time

Profile for Gordo

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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

Haha... Great article. I love the Onion. Oh, wait a minute... The SFGate? Yeah, we certainly need to send in our comments. Ask them for proof and point out their comments and statements of fact are pure speculation.

Journalist goes down south and reports that all is quite. Newspaper man Hearst replies, "Send me some pictures and I'll make the war!" Enough said.

The media is a powerful weapon and unfortunately, it works against us right now.

before everyone gets bent out of shape about the article, does anyone know if this is typical stuff from the author? Does he always do these way-over-the-top stuff for fun, or is he normally serious? Granted, no matter how he meant it, there will be people quoting from it till they die now, so it can't help anything, but at the same time there's a lot of writers out there that write outlandish stories in an attempt to show people how dumb their society really is!
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)

but at the same time there's a lot of writers out there that write outlandish stories in an attempt to show people how dumb their society really is!

Problem with that approach is that those same stupid people you are trying to make fun of with that over the top story read it and then the get wide eyed over things that will not happen.... they just believe every word and demand that they be protected, this then leads to more stupid laws to protect stupid people because of stupid ideas / comments in stupid articles. And with herps in general most people are way behind the learning curve (ie stupid).

No good can come from this... right now there are people contacting thier elected officials demanding something be done less they die of mortal fear of the marching invasion of 20 foot snakes that this study has "promised" them by 2020.

With this kind of sensational article - If you print it they will believe...

Lance
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

I agree; like I said there are some out there that will now be quoting from this article (like it's a bible) until the day they die! But if this is typical writing for the guy, then that kind of response will be limited...knowing the writer and his/her background and who this writers typical audience is is important. I would be really pissed off it this was from a well respected, nationally trusted writer who is known for representing the truth (are there any like that or is it just a dream??). But you're right...any bad press about herps will hurt our cause, no matter how purposely stupid it is...remember "Snakes on a Plane"? I know some who are scared to fly now lol
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)

in line with what I said, it's stuff like these BS maps from a person who is surposed to know these things that causes the most problems! People will see this and think "oh, he works for the goverment, and this is his area of expertise, so he HAS to be right!". No offense to anyone here who IS a government employee, but we have a saying at my company...if you can't make it in the private sector, you work for the government...if you can't make it there, you work for VDOT lol. (btw, I'm not saying this applies to every person, but if you DO work for the government, you should know the people I speak of). I don't know much about this guy who created the maps...tried to google him and saw something about concern with wind farmers...couldn't find enough to tell for sure, but it sounds like another self-righteous freak who abuses their position to push their personal agendas...either that or he's too stupid to understand his own mistakes. If anyone can find more info out about him, and about his history with this type of issue, please post it!
It doesn't take long (I toggled between weather.com(look at the avg temps tab down on the page and on the right) and google maps) to see the problem...he obvious only went by peak summer temps and neglected the colder months. I couldn't find a single city with data from the burms native home "range" that had a month where the avg high fell below the low 80's....even New Orleans has 6 MONTHS where the avg high is lower then 80 (even goes as low as 62!) Could a burm survive for a few months in Alabama? Sure, if it's summer! But they couldn't survive the winter months, and that's the key...they would never make it through a winter in most of the country.
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)

I live in North Central Florida halfway between Orlando and Ocala. In addition to working with reptiles I also work with fruit trees from S.E. Asia (you know where burms come from. I can tell you from first hand experience they won't last a month outside here in the winter and I have been arguing all along that I have doubts that they are really living year-round in the everglades. Anyway I can tell you that without the help of green house type protection most S.E. Asian fruit trees will die here very quickly in average night-time winter temps. One of the few notable exptions however is the Star-fruit or Carambola (Avverhoa carambola) it can take down into the mid-twenties for a few hours before you get signifigant damage (dead limbs etc.) I lost about 90-95% of my star fruit crop this year due to a cold snap that put temps into the upper 20's at the wrong time (GLOBAL WARMING MY ALGORE) If you are working with any burms that are capeable of withstanding such temps please let us know as they would be a great breeding project. I suspect what you would actually have is a big brown popsicle. Wich might taste good with a side order of slightly frozen not-quite-ripe star fruit.

That humans are mammals. Those are some wing ding government scientists there. I'll bet we could find some 6th grade dropout who majored in shop class and whose goal was to get on the Jerry Springer show and HE could confirm that humans are in fact mammals He could also probably inform these "Government Scientists" that burms don't usually eat people as he probably has one for a pet and is still here to tell about it.

Wow, the government really is keeping on top! They are always the first to come out with new information! I mean, humans are mammals??? FASCINATING, i would have never guessed!!!

Those stupid government scientists must have been asleep during 1st through 9th grade science class...
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-Jacob

Why do people say .02 cents??? So, what, your opinion is only worth a 50th of a cent?

I know when I have a question about an animals biology the first person I run to is a geologist...

The USGS has been pushing the invasive burmese issue in Florida for quite some time, and it can be assumed they have had a hand in pushing the USFW RFI as well. For anyone to even remotely suggest that burmese pythons could survive, much less propagate, in the arid deserts of the Southwestern border, shows that their conclusions are seriously flawed and not based on the known biology of the species.

In regards to the SF Chronicle article, it appears to have been done somewhat tongue in cheek to say the least. I would recommend that readers keep that in mind if they choose to respond. I don't feel that the author actually believes what the USGS is trying to sell either, or the article would have been much less humorous, and it wouldn't have used such a flawed data set or factless news release as supporting documentation.

That said, the USGS is a serious issue and their statement needs to be addressed and the flaws in their map, their projections, and their statement need to be shown for what they are.

This does show that there are serious forces aligned against boa and python keepers, and certainly in the long run we are in for more than just a response to an information request.

The SFGate article may be tongue in cheek, but here was his response after a friend wrote him:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thanks for your letter. I just write what they tell me. As far as I know, I didn't get anything wrong, at least not based on the information the government is putting out. But I appreciate the feedback.

All best,

Steve

If ignorance is bliss, this guy must be the happiest man on earth...then again, i could take any 3 of my old classmates, put them in a line, and you could bet that 2 of them would be idiots...Probably smarter than this guy though, except for this one girl, the day i brought my little lovebird to class, she got within 20 feet of him, stared at him, screamed really loud, then ran and hid in the girls bathroom until i left.
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-Jacob

Why do people say .02 cents??? So, what, your opinion is only worth a 50th of a cent?

JeffB Wrote:
>>In regards to the SF Chronicle article, it appears to have been done somewhat tongue in cheek to say the least. I would recommend that readers keep that in mind if they choose to respond. I don't feel that the author actually believes what the USGS is trying to sell either, or the article would have been much less humorous, and it wouldn't have used such a flawed data set or factless news release as supporting documentation.

In fact we could have written the very same article in an effort to show how rediculous the USGS information is. We'd have done it better and differently but that article COULD be seen as a rip on the USGS. Imagine those words said out loud by a comedian to an audience. They'd all be roaring.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

I talked to one of the authors today and at this point about the only thing I can say is he seems like a nice guy who never expected this much negative feed back. The first question I asked is “ Are you getting many phone calls?” His answer was “ only one every 2 or 3 minutes.” We talked about how they had arrived at the conclusions they did in publishing their map. I believe he and his co-authors really believe what they have written, misguided, as it seems to be. I explained to him that I had caught Burmese pythons in the wild, bred them in captivity and spent almost 40 years in the field working with reptiles and amphibians and that there was no way any of the Burmese could survive once they left central and south Florida. His answer was that there was data showing a population in northern India and Pakistan that could survive the low temperatures outside central Florida. I pointed out that the data for boa constrictors would probably show the same thing but in 40 years looking for reptiles in southern Arizona and New Mexico I had not only never caught one there but hadn’t heard of a sighting. I also explained that I had caught boas within 100 miles of the US border and that even thought the habitat looked the same that there was some reason they has never crossed. He did tell me that their findings would be published soon. I think the best thing to do at this point is to look at their data and come up with a strong response. Another point is that the Burmese from northern India and Pakistan haven’t been brought into this country in 25 years or more and I doubt there’s any chance of them coming in again.
Michael Luhrs

Here's a summary of a post I made on another forum that expresses my view based on personal experience.

What we are dealing with are academics and political business men. These guys earn their PhD's in the classroom it's all done on paper not via real life. Then they go out in the field and try to apply their classroom knowledge to life. The problem is they don't know about real life so they fall back on what they understand. Hypothesis, theory's etc. The stuff that got them passing grades in school. Their field research gets reduced to a science project conducted by individuals who do not have a working knowledge of the subject. They look for textbook answers in constantly changing equations.The highly flawed conclusions are then passed on to people who know even less for a final evaluation. The USGS map is a perfect example of how the system works. A major problem is academics are very resistant to being proven wrong and the people who enlist them are looking for validation. In these situations known facts take a back seat to theory.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

I don't really agree with you...you sound very bitter towards those with educations! (did one steal your job??) The problem with many government agencies is that they hire people for positions OUTSIDE their range of expertise. Keep in mind there are millions of educated people who properly use their knowledge and apply it appropriately. And there's a good reason why academics are somewhat resistant to outside input...the outside input is usually very tainted by fear and/or religious views and/or plain ignorance (like the milksnake storys "they drink milk from cows!".
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)

I don't really agree with you...you sound very bitter towards those with educations! (did one steal your job??) Superdave

No super I'm not bitter at all. I actually had very nice PhD fellow working at my place for good while. He learned quite a bit. Not mention a number of different collage kids who wanted to learn about reptiles from someone who's actually done something. You can know all there is about arm speed , release , ball rotation , velocity but when you go out and throw a pitch to a real a batter, it's not the same as it was on the test a paper. As far as my own education go's with out bragging it's a safe bet I can get "a job" if I ever feel the need to go punch a clock for someone else. So far I'd say things have gone ok.

"The problem with many government agencies is that they hire people for positions OUTSIDE their range of expertise"

No kidding. The deal is these people who are hired OUTSIDE their range of expertise are put in positions of authority that are also OUTSIDE their range of expertise . So they SOMETIMES turn to people who are PERCIEVED as experts. The academics . At this point their fed information such as the USGS map etc. The job of the academics is to prove other people wrong and to be right. All thru school they learn to debate. In winning debates they raise questions and make points not on fact but by using speculation. This might be a good way to win in the classroom but in my opinion it's no way to determine the laws governing our society.

' academics are somewhat resistant to outside input...the outside input is usually very tainted by fear and/or religious views and/or plain ignorance (like the milksnake storys "they drink milk from cows!" ' Superdave

I'd say that door swings both ways. Again someone with real life experience can easily separate the wheat from the shaft. And once again that brings us back to the academics use of speculation as means of validation. The same people that told us the sun go's round the earth , the world is flat or that diverting the Kissimmee River in Fl. would be OK are now telling us that monsters could take over the nation.

For many years pythons and boas have been brought in to the US. Old carnival pictures dating back to the thirty's can found featuring these animals being handled by "snake charmers". For decades exotics were imported into the US completely unchecked . It was a total free for all. Thousands upon thousands. To date the only place pythons have been able to establish is in the Southern tip of Fl. No where else can a population be found . After all this time and decades of going completely unchecked no mass take over has occurred . This is not even taking into account the endless stretches of undeveloped land and waterways connecting the various locations during the many years that went completly un regulated . These highly favorable conditions for population expansion no longer exist. In this age of vast developmental pressure, laws governing importation , sales and private ownership the possibility of the giant snakes taking over a third of the US is now being projected by PERCIEVED experts and supported by special interest groups.

Who's side is very tainted by fear and/or religious views and/or plain ignorance ?

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

wstreps: "No super I'm not bitter at all. I actually had very nice PhD fellow working at my place for good while. He learned quite a bit. Not mention a number of different collage kids who wanted to learn about reptiles from someone who's actually done something. You can know all there is about arm speed , release , ball rotation , velocity but when you go out and throw a pitch to a real a batter, it's not the same as it was on the test a paper. As far as my own education go's with out bragging it's a safe bet I can get "a job" if I ever feel the need to go punch a clock for someone else. So far I'd say things have gone ok."

I agree that actual experience with something is important, but so is education! You complain about people using their education without actual experience, but it goes both ways!! A lot of people simply think that they can get experience in something and they suddenly know everything! You can learn how to break an engine down and rebuild it by watching someone, but without the background education, you couldn't duplicate all the parts! And I see it all the time...people with "experience" don't really have a clue what they are really doing! The quality of the experience is also based on how good the "teacher" is. It's like my wife's stepfather...he's an electrician and he thinks he knows everything about it...he claims all the time that "engineers screwed up the design" ...he has no knowledge that different localities have different requirements that must be followed, or why in different situations a different guage wire is specified...from his "experience" he simply thinks he knows what works in all cases. I see it often in my field, civil engineering...contractors who "know how to do it" won't go by the details provided cause they've "been doing it for 20 years"...they don't understand different materials require different treatment and they have caused mass structure failure. Doesn't happen all the time, but almost ALL of these failures are due to the contractor, not the design.
And don't forget that most modern technology (that many take for granted) that makes our life simpler was created by those in academics...without their advanced knowledge on subjects, things wouldn't advance (in most situations, people with "experience" can maintain a level of technology, but they seldom advance it)

wstreps: "No kidding. The deal is these people who are hired OUTSIDE their range of expertise are put in positions of authority that are also OUTSIDE their range of expertise . So they SOMETIMES turn to people who are PERCIEVED as experts. The academics . At this point their fed information such as the USGS map etc. The job of the academics is to prove other people wrong and to be right. All thru school they learn to debate. In winning debates they raise questions and make points not on fact but by using speculation. This might be a good way to win in the classroom but in my opinion it's no way to determine the laws governing our society."

all through school they learn to debate?? Either you didn't go to school, or you went to a bad one!! I'm an engineer, and ALL my teachings where about science, and utilizing facts, and applying them, not "debating" everything.

In short, both experience AND education (aka academia) are needed...to simply bash academics as the source of problems shows ignorance (and also shows which of the two you have! Obviously not both) I don't mean to bash on those without an education (my best friend is a brick mason and didn't even finish high school), ONLY those who are dumb enough to think academics is the problem.
The real problem is individuals (on both sides) who act like they know what they're doing, when they really don't...I guess they have egos and won't admit they are not competent in that area. There is a lot that can be learned from experience, and there is a lot that can be learned from education
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)

Not to argue but Sorry Super again your way off base. Are you saying that I don't have much formal education or perhaps a poor one at best, that I believe formal education is of no use? Pretty brash comments. I have to say that your analogy's across the board as well as your conclusions show a lack of both education and experience with regards to the biological world and it's accompanying politics. You might want to strive to increase your understanding of both before directing judgmental criticism at those who are far more educated and experienced then you in these areas.

Dr Rodda , presented maps that he admited were complied with few facts and a of lot of guess work. Lets look further at a couple of statements.

"Keep in mind that Python molurus occurs in extremely arid areas of Pakistan (both the Lower Indus Valley and Upper Indus Valley, but not the middle Indus!)" Dr. Rodda

After review he first claims knowledge of molurus over a broad range in Pakistan then backs it up with ,

"There are some pretty big unknowns out there; for example, we have very little accurate information on the range of P. molurus in Pakistan or west central China." Dr Rodda

He then draws the conclusion that Python molurus occurs in extremely arid areas of Pakistan . Maybe you can explain why Dr Rhodda`s conclusion is incorrect .Lets look at his formula ,

A. Molurus in found in the Indus Valley .
B. The Indus Valley has hot temperatures and little rain fall
A B the pythons live in the desert !

Dr. Rhodda would be the first to tell you he did not investigate many important factors but that didn't stop him from turning in his project map along with a companion map that is basically a fiction piece as a completed project. This statement from him " Python molurus occurs in extremely arid areas of Pakistan " is one he presented in his defense when the validity of poorly conceived work came into question. The above formula is what he deemed rationalized.

" all through school they learn to debate?? Either you didn't go to school, or you went to a bad one!! I'm an engineer, and ALL my teachings where about science, and utilizing facts, and applying them, not "debating" everything. " SuperDave

I guess Dr Rhodda also went to a bad school .

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

"Not to argue but Sorry Super again your way off base. Are you saying that I don't have much formal education or perhaps a poor one at best, that I believe formal education is of no use? Pretty brash comments. I have to say that your analogy's across the board as well as your conclusions show a lack of both education and experience with regards to the biological world and it's accompanying politics. You might want to strive to increase your understanding of both before directing judgmental criticism at those who are far more educated and experienced then you in these areas."

far more educated and experienced? LOL whatever dude...I'll let you think you know everything, if that will make you happy lol
but just for fun, explain your superior education and experience...this should be interesting! lol
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)

I have a few questions, hopefully someone here can answer them. Where are the areas that he is talking about in northern India and Pakistan? Is he going by actual data from the exact location? Much of that area appears to be rugged terrain...is it possible the environment is like Hawaii? (for example: is he looking at maps that show general range, and doesn't exclude small areas of diverse environments? It's very possible in mountainous areas that a city be high in elevation and have very cool temps, compared to the very low valley half a mile away where the burmeses live! Is this the case, or are these snakes actually surviving in areas where they do experience the drastic seasonal changes we experience in America?
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)

We won’t know till we see the data when it’s published. He said it was at the printers so hopefully it will be soon. Just for information I know of a pyro that is found in the Egan Mt. just a few miles south of Ely, Nevada. Four of them were found in 1949 & 1950 in just two canyons. Two other guys and myself went there in the early 70’s a number of times and found a total of 9 of them but only in the two named canyons. This local is a couple of hundred miles north of the closest locality. By their logic the range of this pyro would thousands of sq. miles bigger than it is.
Michael Luhrs

Habitat fracture and modification by man will prevent any LARGE snakes from making significant inroads, by extending invasive feral exotic populations.
Reptile species no longer grow to sizes once reached, population density and and ranges dwindle, and individual lifespans decrease; due to the effects of man on his environment here in the U.S.
There might be opportunities for bottle and can recyclers to branch out into the python skin market with all the roadkill, though.
Ya never know.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Sure what he says may have a way to fit on paper with a few facts to help hold up all the guesswork... but will it happen in the real world? Reality and hypothesis do not always work together.

I really look forward to what happens to this under peer review once the data is published and challanged... and from what I have seen it will be challanged from many angles by many people. He had no idea what kind of mess this would be when his boss told him to do this research and publish these results in the media.

Lance
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

Unfortunately we live in an America where facts and reality mean little, where political correctness and formality carry the day.
In other words, in my skeptical mind, I'm concerned that intelligent evaluation may come in second to emotions and fear.
The current administration's agenda has gotten a lot of mileage with that fear factor, now hasn't it.
Lets hope that doesn't happen.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer