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Check this out:

LINK TO ARTICLE

If link doesn't work, cut and paste:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-02-20-burmese-pythons_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

Nothing like propaganda to start your morning. Last time I read anything from USA Today.

Thanks,
Ed

I always figured that burms would get us in trouble one day. we have a dedicated reptile petstore here(near chicago) and last time I went in there there was a highschool aged guy and his girlf in there shopping for, by the questions he was asking, what would be this kids first snake. and the two that were on his short list? red tails and burms. here, if that snake got out into the wild, it'd be no big deal, but I'm sure kids think the same in warmer climate... and I've got proof now. I have to start worrying about my childrens pythons being considered illegal thanks to a decade long glut of burms on the market? rediculous. I wish they showed that map though. and then legislated accordingly. but, like always, I'm sure the politicians are gonna end up painting too broad a brush.

what bothers me most is where does the ultimate accountability rest? I would argue that breeders who are getting these HUGE clutches of eggs have nothing but dollar signs in their eyes. that coupled with the nature of the market not letting you know all the people you're giving this 'cute' snake to is, and has always been, a recipe for disaster.

I realize that nobody with a burm project would agree with that whole thing, because THEY on an individual basis are the 'good one'. but seriously, -where does the buck stop?- so to speak. irrisponsible pet owners have always been a constant.

the thing that comes to mind is when I got my dog, a rotty. the hoops I had to jump through were incredible, because I got him from a reputable breeder. nice german blood, champion bloodline, ect. the difference is that she(my breeder) only had a litter of five to deal with, instead of fourty, and she was selling them for several hundred dollars, instead of fifty.

now considr the converse. some kid saves up fifty dollars from his first job at mcdonalds somewhere in southern florida. he goes to the local swap. he maybe, or maybe not, gets five minutes of tutorial from his burm breeder, and all of a sudden he's got himself a timebomb. he likes to seeit feed, so he power feeds it and in three years that snake is ten feet! he cna't afford ANOTHER new cage because he's dating now, he's got his car, and the swamps just a mile away...

I don't mean to tick people off here, but even those who do get a little frustrated with me can't deny that this (exact) story has happened. I'm reading a lot of posts and hearing a lot of talk about how people are shocked tht somebody would want to legislate snakes? you didn't see this coming?

and I realize that they do make fantastic pets. mine was so tame at twelve feet that I could introduce him to people with no fear of mishap. but the fact is, I only got him because at eight feet he decided his cage wasn't big enough and split 4x4's LENGTHWISE to get himself a little more room.

I promise you that I did not intend for this to turn into a rant. I'll get off my soapbox now.

what bothers me most is where does the ultimate accountability rest? I would argue that breeders who are getting these HUGE clutches of eggs have nothing but dollar signs in their eyes

that is the type of world we live in. anybody who has 2 ugly snakes have to mate them just to see if they get ugly ones lol and figure the "pet shops" will take them but breeding is going downhill very rapidly and I haven't even started yet
Bob

judging by your posts, Bob, you should probably start, so more responsible people can stand shoulder to shoulder with the lessers and show the market that there ARE some good breeders out there!

but I only intend to breed the stellar ones and the ones that didn't quite make it and don't look as good will still be given a good home but I got a couple of years left but I'm in no hurry and I only buy babies (raising them is the best part) so that doesn't help my cause but I'm not getting into to make money, I just to buy more snakes and caging
Bob

so -hopefully- you're in good company. yes, whatching them grow is the best part. and I'm in no hurry either, except to get my stables filled. I will profoundly enjoy the rest!

Jim

what you holding over there hmmmmmmmmlol

I got could be wrong cuz I don't keep count of my snakes, I just feed them and take care of them but rarely ever count so I think I got

BRB
1.1 het hypo (male from Mike Lockwood and female from Dave Colling)
0.1 hypo (Mike Lockwood)
1.2 brb from Will Bird and Dave Colling (have several others that I have no intention to breed)

BCI
0.0.1 Colombian (my favorite and ugliest too)
1.1 double het lipstick from John Martino
0.1 Possible jungle het lipstick from Steve Ihrig

I plan to pick up 3 or so really nice normals this year from Dave Colling and Bryan Hummel but if I can't get nice ones then I ain't buying so I'll get my 1.5k-2k super cherry salmon male from Rich and John at Salmonboa this year and just try again next year and that's all I can do. nice chatting with you
Bob

wow, you've got some great stuff! currently, and unfortunately, it's ever so much easier for me to count. right now I have 1.1 childrens pytons. I intend on another female. I've gotta line on 1.1 calabar burrowers for next month, and 2.2 candoia aspera's at the same time.(eeeewww, W/C, we'll see how it goes, I'v gotta microscope and a good vet for what I can't figure out) I intend to have at least one ringed python by the end of next month as well. I've gotta line on a male that's TOPS! I will fill that project out with two females pending availibility.

after all that, we'll see where the spirit takes me. my focus is on the small to medium sized boids, as I've said in another post. the 'niche snakes' very much interest me, as you can tell. I also like the idea of doing cbb's that few else are doing.

in order to fit into theis forum, I should mention that I have always loved brb's. I owned one shortly before college, but when that time came, I got rid of my entire collection(ooh, it hurt) due to the fact that my dorm room was small, and they had 'a thing' with pets, specifically the ones that I had... I intend to get more, and have been shopping for them as well. I need to invest a significant amount of money with the brb's, so it'll be a while.

the college thing was ten years ago, and I haven't been involved since. I just recently realized that life is better when you've got snakes around, so I've jumped in with both feet to get back on track.

I also have a trio of hatchling cherry heads, but they don't count in a snake forum...

so that's my story, and it will be at least three years till I have another breeding project. back in the day I did mostly milk snakes. now I'm graduating to boids!

Jim

having snakes around is a good thing but when you go to sleep at night knowing you are truely happy then that is immeasurable in my book. take care and definately post pics of anything that is cool cuz I like cool
Bob

Jim,
...Ring Pythons are towards the bottom of my wish list. I used to want them because babies are so pretty and they were very rare in US collections. They are now very common in US collections and after handling several adults and talking to lots of people who have kept them they do not impress me. Adults just do not seem to like to be held and though some are very tame there seem to be a failry high percentage that are unpredictable. You mentioned Womas and they seem like the MUCH better choice.
Jeff

>>wow, you've got some great stuff! currently, and unfortunately, it's ever so much easier for me to count. right now I have 1.1 childrens pytons. I intend on another female. I've gotta line on 1.1 calabar burrowers for next month, and 2.2 candoia aspera's at the same time.(eeeewww, W/C, we'll see how it goes, I'v gotta microscope and a good vet for what I can't figure out) I intend to have at least one ringed python by the end of next month as well. I've gotta line on a male that's TOPS! I will fill that project out with two females pending availibility.
>>
>>after all that, we'll see where the spirit takes me. my focus is on the small to medium sized boids, as I've said in another post. the 'niche snakes' very much interest me, as you can tell. I also like the idea of doing cbb's that few else are doing.
>>
>>in order to fit into theis forum, I should mention that I have always loved brb's. I owned one shortly before college, but when that time came, I got rid of my entire collection(ooh, it hurt) due to the fact that my dorm room was small, and they had 'a thing' with pets, specifically the ones that I had... I intend to get more, and have been shopping for them as well. I need to invest a significant amount of money with the brb's, so it'll be a while.
>>
>>the college thing was ten years ago, and I haven't been involved since. I just recently realized that life is better when you've got snakes around, so I've jumped in with both feet to get back on track.
>>
>>I also have a trio of hatchling cherry heads, but they don't count in a snake forum...
>>
>>so that's my story, and it will be at least three years till I have another breeding project. back in the day I did mostly milk snakes. now I'm graduating to boids!
>>
>>Jim

well, best case scenario I'd have both! but if that's the general concensus, I'll just get the one and play it by ear. if I've got room for the bigger cages a trio of womas would use, I'd have room for another, or two! but if hey turn out to be unredictible, I would definately not breed them. I wouldn't want to add more unpredictable snakes to a market that's full of them.

i fully agree with you, ive had snakes for years and recently ive done alot of research i also would like to start expanding my collection in hopes that a will be able to breed them in a few years.

and as of right now it looks like a few burm are gonna ruin that for you and me bob, not to mention everyone else thats allready involved in it.
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

haha lol cuz

YOU GOT PUNKED PLAYA!!!!!!!!!!!!

What would you like to add to the collection if you had the chance to acquire the ones on top of the list???

Mine for the BRB project to go with my

1.1 het hypo 50% het anery
0.1 hypo 50% anery

duh a male anery to prove out the ladies in case my het hypo male did me wrong (25% chance of making some in either litter but its all on the male) but if he did I would prolly do something very nice for Mr. Lockwood cuz I ripped him off baby and also a female het to make more anery's to mate with my nearly acquired

0.1 high yellow

Hopefully I can get a really nice red or really dark orangey red??? normals for outcrossing on my hypo project and I already have a normal female so I need another

1.1 reds

I am considering a male hypo next year if I can get a really good one in color and crescents are extra but the color is what I'm after.

BCI

got to get a super cherry salmon like this one from the guy I bought my possible jungle from

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=18823227&uid=1802530

I got to get a really nice red albino from Tom Burke to continue on the "Lipstick" gene I chose to go with

Eventually I plan to get a motely but I want a salmon motley male that looks good but they are expensive but hopefully with my sunglows and other projects like if my female proves out jungle then some will be jungle sunglows and if I get a motley then I might have a Super Salmon Motley Jungle if I can tell what the hell it islol

but that is prolly all I plan to purchase with my money but the anery brb part is definately the biggest chunk so might have to do something like rob you

Also next year I will getting myself for a pet a really nice Guyana BCC from Johnathan Brady but I don't want to pay the 1k for the best ones but will get Grade B for $600 lol but it will be nice with pink sides cuz that's how I like 'em

After that I won't have to buy anything again with my money I'll just put it back in the hobby for caging, tubs for rodents, tubs for racks, lots of rodent grub, substrate for rodents, water system for rodents, thermostats duh those are expensive but the best thing you can buy (everyone should have a temp gun also) and lots of other crap too.

that got long really quick but I'm happy so I thought would share with you Stephen
Bob

try this link and click on breeding trials, its that maroon one to go with my girl (bad pic but almost close to her color with pine shavings and reptibark for color comparison to show you I'm not a tweakerlol cuz that's funny stuff)
Bob

www.picturetrail.com/sdisnakes

well lets see here if i had to pick, assuming money was much less an issue, i would say first off i would get

2.1 brbs all of which i would like non related but all a nice light orange (i cant help it i love the light orange!!!) so i would start breeding for color.

and again if money was a non issue i like that idea of a het hypo/ het anery mix!! other wise it would just be one hypo and one het to start me off. because you need a hypo/hypo or a hypo/het mix to throw hypo babies correct? two hets wont do it

and that would just hold me off until anerys become a little more avible. as much as i love the light orange those shades of grew are gorgeous!!! just wish they held their color as they aged more.

as far as non BRBs there are BCIs i would get a motely for sure and again i really like those anerys too!!!

also ive become a fan of jungle carpets and entertained the thought of maybe doing a dumeril also...

but realisticly i hope for a 1.3 set of nice orange BRBs within the year, i dont know how likely that is it might have to wait till next year. i have to get the wifey a beardie befor i can get anymore snakes so that might set me back a bit lol gatta keep her happy too!!

ohh and dont worry about rambling its more than welcome, pluss i kinda goo off a bit too

i like your list for BRBs allthough when it comes to BCI i think we have quite different taste... i have to admit im not a huge fan fo the albinos, the salmons... dont wanna hurt anyones feelings but i just dont like those light yellows and pinks but thats just me.

but i do agree that it would be sweet to get set up to where you can have a few breeding pairs and have that bring in enough to support it all from then on... i hope that i will be able to get to that point, i dont care if i make any extra at all, just enough to have it pay for itself would be perfect!!!
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

1.1 het/hypo brb's would produce you 1/4 clutches of full-on hypos. so you can save some money if you want! the rest would be 66% het/hypo

okay thats what i thought... only thing with that is now its gonna take a few years of breeding to figure out which out of the litter are 100% het. and short of blood work and crazy stuff breeding then is the only way to find out correct?
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

lol i got it not thats right i had it backwards
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

oh yeah, you're looking at years to find out if a 66% het is proven. but that's the name of the game... it's still fun, in a freudian -delay of gratification- kinda way!

yeah i had a brain fart a het/het pair will throw 1/4 hypo 1/4 normal and 1/2 normal looking hets... and the only way to prove a het is to breed it, and easy way to find out is to breed a possible het with a hypo and hope for a 50/50 litter or hypo/ hets
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

I forgot an anery bci. I stole a few pics of the nicest ones I've seen so enjoy

Ruben's anery

Executive Reptiles

don't know who but I love the tail

Micah Denton hypermelanistic Longicauda

more tail different snake I think I don't know lol

motleys for you

just like this one for some reason from Rick Bonsell het anery

really dark saddle color but great tail color
the product of a hypo suri x male motley 25% suri

best example of a Pastel motley ever from Jeff Ronne

and his tribal boa that he bought if you're looking

and a tortoise he bought for his wife too but it's cool looking

looks like Johnny Depp a little???

and the man who creates the best motleys IMHO is Chris Nicholas

and I use to have a couple JCP but I don't have them no more
Bob

"looks like jonny depp" man, I laughed hard

-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

yeah see you got it very nice anerys and motelys!! the hyper is a little too dark but still nice. i like them all but the pastel and albinos lol sorry its the coloring just isnt my favorite.
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

say that but I'm not a real albino motely fan but I am after Salmon Super Motley aka "red devil" all red snake hell yeah I want one of those. I threw those pics in just to piss you off

causing trouble again, like always. thats fine if you want a war lol its on!!
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

but I'm in real good spirits cuz I was suppose to have court tomorrow so I took off of work and now I don't have court but now have to hang sheetrock but court means money and I don't want to spend no money cuz I have to pay off Dave sooner or later

well glad to hear you got out of going to court and high spirits are good, but how can you have high spirits when it comes to hanging board???
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

$100 per hour and I don't have to dress up but I just got my haircut yesterday those bastards, think I can get reimbursed or something??

keeping track of what people got for light orange possibilities, a few come to mind but I don't think anyone would be selling 'em cuz I would love to have one and you want a pair, you greedy bastard

Aubrey- has Flax x Sable, Amethyst x Flax
Jeff-Sunkist (I like that one a lot)
Dave-Fred x Wilma, Lefty
TimS-male x bryan hummel female

and those are the pairings that I know that you might want to watch out for some orange ones

and thats where i want to start get a pair or even im thinking a 1.2 set would be better i think
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

the other thing is i dont know if this is likely... but i really like some of the girls from daves tommy litters, hopefully by summer of fall ill be able to get one of those (if she is still left) then next year ill grab a pair
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

This discussion has been ongoing here and there for a while now. Even before this new propsed legislation. Personally, I think the topius is very important and always relevant. Jim, you said something interesting which is obvious but I never really thought about it before.

People often compare what is happening to reptiles with what has happened to other domesticated animals (cats/dogs). I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Well there's nor regulation on cats and there are too many of them, why should snakes be regulated?" I've always been of the belief that we shouldn't compare the two and that just because mistakes were made with cats and dogs doesn't mean we have to repeat them with snakes.

You mentioned that Rotts only have 5 or so in a litter. Think about how overpopulated the world is with unwanted cats and dogs and they only have five or so in a litter. As we get better and better at this captive breeding thing, the same is going to happen to our beloved reptiles. Quickly. I certainly don't want to quit my hobby. I love it. And, I admit that it feels good not only to supply someone with a beautiful snake that they're very happy with but also to take in a little cash while doing it. But if we want to keeo a good thing going, we're going to have to show a little restraint. I don't have the answer, but regultaing our numbers of offspring from within the herp community is wher I'd like to see us go.

You can have your soap box back now.
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

in a few years time there will be too many brb's out there to have proper homes for them and who doesn't want their animals they produced to go to good homes but breeders who breed for income have to pay bills and I just hope everyone learns from this Mike and of course I have to get another something from you lol
Bob

The problem I see with what you guys are saying is that it is not realistic. There's no way you are going to get all breeders to agree with the details, and a percentage of breeders won't even agree to be "regulated." It's just as much wishful thinking to say "we need regulation" as it is to say "we need python owners to stop releasing them into the wild."

Personally, I don't think limiting supply and pricing a lot of people out of the market is a good long term strategy anyway. It
would be like cigarette companies willingly eliminating advertising to the younger demographic. (I'm not supporting smoking, just pointing out they'd be shooting themselves in the foot!)

Just my opinion.

Thanks,
Ed

Personally, I don't think limiting supply and pricing a lot of people out of the market is a good long term strategy anyway. It
would be like cigarette companies willingly eliminating advertising to the younger demographic. (I'm not supporting smoking, just pointing out they'd be shooting themselves in the foot!)

I was thinking along the lines of someone buys a pair or brb's that are very low grade whether from a big breeder, small breeder, hobbyists or petstore. They mate those two ugly ducklings and that is more ugly ducklings not on the market that are not gonna get taken care of properly whether it be at the breeders cuz chances are with little money invested in low grade stock comes low grade equipment=unhappy little nippy brb's you feel me or

someone sees a low grade, hell lets say average on this one and they it in the window of a pet store

0.1 brb adult $300 and can breed given 6-8 months of good meals. They say I'm gonna spend my 3 and sell the babies whole at least for say $55 a pop at 15 babies cuz it was a decent litter so 15 at $55 you feel me but it is exactly this get rich scheme that people do in their daily lives called "hustling" Ed. I mean trying to turn a $1 out of .15

I just know with the growing numbers of people wanting to breed this year and wanting to breed next year and the year after (talking about newbies) that all the babies aren't gonna go to good homes and lots will dies maybe starting off at a few hundred a year cuz improper care, heating malfunctions due to poor equipment, not feeding the right food item to them etc ect.............

Now do you really understand why I am kind of for it cuz I will never be breeder status nor do I ever want to become breeder status cuz taking care of 100 snakes is not for Bob believe me Ed, I have better things to do but if I have my sone helping out in 6 years (he'll be 13) then I can have them lol but no that is waaaaaaaay too many for me. I would like to hover about 30-50ish over the next 7 years or so. nice arguing with you Ed (cough cough) I mean debate reallylol
Bob

that guy screwed up

We're not arguing, we're having a friendly debate.

Anyway, the main point I was trying to make is that it doesn't
really matter *why* you guys want the regulation. (BTW, no one wants to see animals being treated poorly.) But this mythical "regulation", imo, will never happen. If it will, how will it happen? Who will be in charge of it? How will it be set up so that EVERYONE adheres to the rules? Like I said, I think this is just as much wishful thinking as saying "python owners shouldn't be irresponsible and release their snakes into the wild."

We all can keep saying it over and over again - "We need regulation, we need regulation, we need regulation..." but just continually chanting that doesn't change anything.

Sorry, I hope I didn't sound harsh, but too be honest I'm pretty disturbed that this nonsense with the Burmese Python propaganda can actually happen in America. When the federal agencies charged with protecting our environment are telling me Burmese Pythons can happily live in North Carolina and Virginia, that kind of scares me!

Thanks,
Ed

>>Personally, I don't think limiting supply and pricing a lot of people out of the market is a good long term strategy anyway. It
>>would be like cigarette companies willingly eliminating advertising to the younger demographic. (I'm not supporting smoking, just pointing out they'd be shooting themselves in the foot!)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I was thinking along the lines of someone buys a pair or brb's that are very low grade whether from a big breeder, small breeder, hobbyists or petstore. They mate those two ugly ducklings and that is more ugly ducklings not on the market that are not gonna get taken care of properly whether it be at the breeders cuz chances are with little money invested in low grade stock comes low grade equipment=unhappy little nippy brb's you feel me or
>>
>>
>>someone sees a low grade, hell lets say average on this one and they it in the window of a pet store
>>
>>0.1 brb adult $300 and can breed given 6-8 months of good meals. They say I'm gonna spend my 3 and sell the babies whole at least for say $55 a pop at 15 babies cuz it was a decent litter so 15 at $55 you feel me but it is exactly this get rich scheme that people do in their daily lives called "hustling" Ed. I mean trying to turn a $1 out of .15
>>
>>I just know with the growing numbers of people wanting to breed this year and wanting to breed next year and the year after (talking about newbies) that all the babies aren't gonna go to good homes and lots will dies maybe starting off at a few hundred a year cuz improper care, heating malfunctions due to poor equipment, not feeding the right food item to them etc ect.............
>>
>>Now do you really understand why I am kind of for it cuz I will never be breeder status nor do I ever want to become breeder status cuz taking care of 100 snakes is not for Bob believe me Ed, I have better things to do but if I have my sone helping out in 6 years (he'll be 13) then I can have them lol but no that is waaaaaaaay too many for me. I would like to hover about 30-50ish over the next 7 years or so. nice arguing with you Ed (cough cough) I mean debate reallylol
>>Bob

BRAZILIAN BOA REGISTRY

then everyone who "chose" to be part of the registry would register their snakes for a small fee (breeders). The breeder would have to be responsible for the taking of the pics to correctly identify offspring from clutches so they can all be traced back. Of course some people would not register but what if say 2 years after this was put into effect you see a very young brb then it would have to be registered to be legal. Even if the cost of each animal to be filed for the registry cost $50 or so then this will deter a lot of people from adding to the numbers. If a registered breeder is caught up to no good and doesn't follow EVERY rule then all of his snakes, caging, thermostats and anything they think is snake related is confiscated. I certainly don't want that but how are we gonna stop the pet shops and hole in the walls from buying illegal ones and who would enforce these rules to randomly check petshops to see the snake was registered. Prolly isn't the best but in the end would be great. Each and every animal could be traced back to its routes and if someone was advertising a really beautiful snake and said it was from this breeding and they could also be het hypo or het anery when in turn they are nothing but normals. Not flawless by any standards but you have to start somewhere right. What you think, ridicule melol
Bob

heavy regulation in the trafficing of burms, retics, and greens. I think it'd fall under the dept. of ag. first off, they'd have plants go through the swaps,like they sometimes do to make sure the turtle guys aren't breaking the 4" rule.(they do that in chicago, how 'bout your swaps?) then ask for papers, ect. just give a hard time, ya know? it would origionally mean the a lot of guys would lose money and recources. but it would eventually chase them into the black market. there'd be less supply, more demand, prices would go up, getting one would be a pain in the ---, and 'Johny thirteen year-old' couldn't get one. plus you'd have burm breeders start dressing like Al Capone.

heck yeah, lets put some drama into the situation! guy in a three peice suit and a derby hat walks out of a fancy resturaunt surounded by an entourage... "Who's that, daddy?" "Son, that's a freedom fighter, he breeds twenty foot snakes illegally." special burm task forces in local police departments... ya know, bandito stylie.

maybe it wouldn't catch on like that.

I think the way to handle the whole situation, and one that is not outside the relms of reality is putting a significant tax on the sale of large boids. that way the federal government would make money at it(money's the name of the game with them), and they'd have extra scratch to put together eradication programs.(what does conda taiste like? we'll soon know...) if this tax was significant enough, kids will be forced to settle for that nice ball, that will ultimatly make a better pet and teach them more.(that's right Johnie, a healthy snake sometimes will just skip a meal) I think it'd make the industry stronger as a whole even. nobody's gonna get turned off of herp keeping because their corn got too big! and it would keep the biggies in the strong hands, and keep them out of the weak hands. important point, I think.

Ed,
...I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. It would be great if we had just the right regulations to prevent idiots from releasing Burms and other large snakes and to prevent over breeding but the fools at US Fish and Wildlife could never possibly enact the rules to make that happen. Instead they have very obviously aligned themselves with PETA and are attemting to outlaw ownership of all boids a step at a time. The Burmese Python problem is in Florida and Florida Fish and Game have enacted rules that will hopefully stop the release of Burms into the wild. I think we should all give those rules a chance to work.
Jeff

>>We're not arguing, we're having a friendly debate.
>>
>>Anyway, the main point I was trying to make is that it doesn't
>>really matter *why* you guys want the regulation. (BTW, no one wants to see animals being treated poorly.) But this mythical "regulation", imo, will never happen. If it will, how will it happen? Who will be in charge of it? How will it be set up so that EVERYONE adheres to the rules? Like I said, I think this is just as much wishful thinking as saying "python owners shouldn't be irresponsible and release their snakes into the wild."
>>
>>We all can keep saying it over and over again - "We need regulation, we need regulation, we need regulation..." but just continually chanting that doesn't change anything.
>>
>>Sorry, I hope I didn't sound harsh, but too be honest I'm pretty disturbed that this nonsense with the Burmese Python propaganda can actually happen in America. When the federal agencies charged with protecting our environment are telling me Burmese Pythons can happily live in North Carolina and Virginia, that kind of scares me!
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ed
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Personally, I don't think limiting supply and pricing a lot of people out of the market is a good long term strategy anyway. It
>>>>would be like cigarette companies willingly eliminating advertising to the younger demographic. (I'm not supporting smoking, just pointing out they'd be shooting themselves in the foot!)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I was thinking along the lines of someone buys a pair or brb's that are very low grade whether from a big breeder, small breeder, hobbyists or petstore. They mate those two ugly ducklings and that is more ugly ducklings not on the market that are not gonna get taken care of properly whether it be at the breeders cuz chances are with little money invested in low grade stock comes low grade equipment=unhappy little nippy brb's you feel me or
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>someone sees a low grade, hell lets say average on this one and they it in the window of a pet store
>>>>
>>>>0.1 brb adult $300 and can breed given 6-8 months of good meals. They say I'm gonna spend my 3 and sell the babies whole at least for say $55 a pop at 15 babies cuz it was a decent litter so 15 at $55 you feel me but it is exactly this get rich scheme that people do in their daily lives called "hustling" Ed. I mean trying to turn a $1 out of .15
>>>>
>>>>I just know with the growing numbers of people wanting to breed this year and wanting to breed next year and the year after (talking about newbies) that all the babies aren't gonna go to good homes and lots will dies maybe starting off at a few hundred a year cuz improper care, heating malfunctions due to poor equipment, not feeding the right food item to them etc ect.............
>>>>
>>>>Now do you really understand why I am kind of for it cuz I will never be breeder status nor do I ever want to become breeder status cuz taking care of 100 snakes is not for Bob believe me Ed, I have better things to do but if I have my sone helping out in 6 years (he'll be 13) then I can have them lol but no that is waaaaaaaay too many for me. I would like to hover about 30-50ish over the next 7 years or so. nice arguing with you Ed (cough cough) I mean debate reallylol
>>>>Bob

so on that though of all the newbies looking to beed with in the next few year you can ad my name to that list.

ive though about that too lets say i start with 2 pairs that what anywhere for 15 to as much as 30 babies... i dont know what i would do with them, im sure i could sell a couple here maybe even a few in the classifieds but i would have to whole sale most of them to a pet store, or even a couple pet stores.

only difference im not looking to get into it for the money i want the hobby! but then again how many other people are thinking the same thing?
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

Yes it would be very hard for someone like you or myself to sell 30 snakes but it was Jeff or Dave they would be gone lickity split cuz they have good names and good reputations and that is everything. That is why it is VERY IMPORTANT to have great breeders so the offspring carry their blood and are desirable. I just hope breeding is still selective in that we breed for particular traits such as patterns and colors rather numbers and that is kind of what I'm getting at.
Bob

and totally agree, but thats kinda why im a little worried about getting into all this for that reason alone!! you and i bob are in the same boat, neither of us are gonna breed "just any two snakes" just like dave or mike we would selective breed, only unlike then we (i think) would have a much harder time selling.... and i really dont want to become "that guy" who breed more than he can handle and ends up selling them all cheap cheap just to get rid of them....

this whole breeding potential is new to me, but i feel like im at least taking the right steps to it and not jumping in blinded. im still unsure about a few thing and im not gonna try anything till i fully understand more... but i am really excited about it all and i do want to give it a try for sure.
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

but after keeping reptiles for awhile the next step is to breed cuz it could be fun and you love reptiles and you have already planned on how to get rid of some if not most. Keeping babies in proper homes with the temps right, they need to be fed, they need to housed so there are a few things to go with it. Don't get into breeding for the purpose of a dollar cuz if you don't make a profit then you will be mad and then you lose the love of keeping your herps. If I don't sell them all then I have "trade options" or at least I hope I do. Maybe my holdbacks could be bargaining chips when I try to purchase someone else's holdback and I'm throwing a couple extra dollars or vice versa. I just can't wait but really I can
Bob

you got it!! like i said im excited about it and i havent been this excited about anything in a long time lol and before you say anything yes i know how that sounds... but you have a head start on me i still have a while before i start, but when i do ill start slow with one maybe two pairs. how about you it sounds like you have brb and bci plans
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

yes I think I will do better monetarily wise on the boa side with the ease of selling but brb's are awesome. My sunglows will be very nice and let me holdback my best male jungle albino and then the color will be even better. If I get a male cherry salmon I will be in business also cuz I hate to say my $600 female hypo is my most eye appealing snake to me that I have. Right now she is just literally sunburned but pics don't show it. I think she could add some color to my sunglows and albinos so she will be use one time for a breeding with holdback jungle albino or sunglow. I really want to see what I could do with the stock I got for the sunglow cuz they are nice looking to me and adults don't look near as good as babies but the good ones keep their color and I plan to have pretty good ones

Mike,
...I do not think we are anywhere near the point of producing too many baby Rainbow Boas. Look at the Cornsnake breeders. There are dozens of breeders who produce thousands of Cornsnake babies every year and they are still able to sell them, though at relatively low prices. Those snakes go to pet stores and then to young new keepers who logically will be looking at BRBs as the perfect next snake a few years later. That is a very large ongoing recruitment to our hobby and we BRB breeders will probably never be able to produce enough to meet their demand and imports will likely endo or continue to be seriously reduced over the next few years. BRBs are not so easy to breed and so many people who are buying our normal babies with the intent to breed them are never successful. If these snakes were easy to breed and we were producing too many of them the prices would come way down. As it is there have been wholesalers posting "BRBs wanted" ads in the classifieds almost steadily for the last two years.
Jeff

>>This discussion has been ongoing here and there for a while now. Even before this new propsed legislation. Personally, I think the topius is very important and always relevant. Jim, you said something interesting which is obvious but I never really thought about it before.
>>
>>People often compare what is happening to reptiles with what has happened to other domesticated animals (cats/dogs). I can't tell you how many times I've heard "Well there's nor regulation on cats and there are too many of them, why should snakes be regulated?" I've always been of the belief that we shouldn't compare the two and that just because mistakes were made with cats and dogs doesn't mean we have to repeat them with snakes.
>>
>>You mentioned that Rotts only have 5 or so in a litter. Think about how overpopulated the world is with unwanted cats and dogs and they only have five or so in a litter. As we get better and better at this captive breeding thing, the same is going to happen to our beloved reptiles. Quickly. I certainly don't want to quit my hobby. I love it. And, I admit that it feels good not only to supply someone with a beautiful snake that they're very happy with but also to take in a little cash while doing it. But if we want to keeo a good thing going, we're going to have to show a little restraint. I don't have the answer, but regultaing our numbers of offspring from within the herp community is wher I'd like to see us go.
>>
>>You can have your soap box back now.
>>-----
>>Mike Lockwood
>>www.tooscaley.com

you raise really good points and I agree with all of them. What do you think about the numbers in say 10 years or so, will it matter or change or to far to tell?

Bob,
..Too far out to tell. Ownership of any pets may be outlawed by then.
Jeff

>>you raise really good points and I agree with all of them. What do you think about the numbers in say 10 years or so, will it matter or change or to far to tell?

No problem, thanks for reading the article. As far as accountability, I don't see how anyone but the person who releases the snake is accountable. And it is already illegal
to release an "exotic" snake into the wild. I don't disagree with you that there are breeders/sellers who know some of their "customers" are will act irresponsibly, but that holds
true with dogs, cats, birds, etc. And dogs and cats do orders of magnitude more harm to humans and local wildlife than pythons will ever do. That's why this issue rubs me the wrong way, it's totally blown out of proportion. Even if it is truly a threat to local wildlife and/or humans, realistically it's only a Florida issue.

Here is another problem with legislation - what will happen to those thousands of pythons and boas that breeders have if all of a sudden their snake inventories become worthless?

Also, as others pointed out, this movement for reptile legislation is not even about a few breeding colonies of
pythons and boas in Florida. The end goal of the organizations pushing for it is a total ban on "exotics" as pets. I was fooled for a while... until I did a little research on some of the groups like PETA. Don't let them suck you in.

Sorry, I got on a soapbox as well!!

Thanks,
Ed

NOT those ---------- can't say it or you're thread will be lost

They examined Burmese pythons first and, based on where they live in Asia, estimated where they might live here.

"Might" is a big word, you might make more kids as stupid as you so do us all a favor and............ that was my quote they conveniently left out Edlol

Ha! yeah, unfortunately, 'might' is also a strong word. and, in this case, it could reak havoc...

I guess these studies with marginal posibilities included are gonna keep going on, no matter how much I hate them. this article didn't mention the congressional commity, but I'm sure it was in tandem, or at the least, that those guys read newsweek!

I think the worst part is that the "might" part is based on the assumption global warming will even happen. It's like hysteria based on two levels of junk science. Jeez, my weatherman can't even get the 5 day forecast right!

It all sounds like BS anyway. Even if it warms 2 or 3 degrees here in North Carolina, a Burmese python still wouldn't last through the winter.

Ed

>>They examined Burmese pythons first and, based on where they live in Asia, estimated where they might live here.
>>
>>"Might" is a big word, you might make more kids as stupid as you so do us all a favor and............ that was my quote they conveniently left out Edlol

might be time to start converting Mars to inhabitablelol After the hurricane over here, everyone has gotten and still gets "fuel adjustment charges" so there is no way your bill can be less than $150 a month. If you use $40 then you get hit with a $110 fuel adjustment charge, If your bill is $75 then you get a $75 f.a.c. If this isn't robbery at its best then I'm going to hell. Entergy needs to recooperate their loses so have they ever heard of insurance?????
Bob

.. your snakes to Mars, they might affect the local wildlife
there.

>>might be time to start converting Mars to inhabitablelol After the hurricane over here, everyone has gotten and still gets "fuel adjustment charges" so there is no way your bill can be less than $150 a month. If you use $40 then you get hit with a $110 fuel adjustment charge, If your bill is $75 then you get a $75 f.a.c. If this isn't robbery at its best then I'm going to hell. Entergy needs to recooperate their loses so have they ever heard of insurance?????
>>Bob

buying you that (electron??) microscope than my boas invading their wildlife, screw them and their PETA

The projections I am seeing are that global warming will cause an overall increase in temperatures around the world melting icecaps and also shutting down the ocean currents including the Gulfstream so that North America and especially Europe will actually be MUCH colder. The other side seems to be getting their BS into the idiot mainstream media and we are not. Guess who is gonna win.
Jeff

>>
>>Check this out:
>>
>>LINK TO ARTICLE
>>
>>If link doesn't work, cut and paste:
>>http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-02-20-burmese-pythons_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip
>>
>>
>>Nothing like propaganda to start your morning. Last time I read anything from USA Today.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ed

Jeff,

As much as I hate to feel this way, I think the idiots will win
with regard to the legislation on reptile ownership. There's
just not nearly enough public support for snakes and lizards; a few thousand letters to congressmen scattered across the country won't help our cause. Most people either are apathetic or fearful of reptiles. We are in the minority.

Regarding global warming, I think the idiots have already won.

Thanks,
Ed

>>The projections I am seeing are that global warming will cause an overall increase in temperatures around the world melting icecaps and also shutting down the ocean currents including the Gulfstream so that North America and especially Europe will actually be MUCH colder. The other side seems to be getting their BS into the idiot mainstream media and we are not. Guess who is gonna win.
>>Jeff
>>
>>>>
>>>>Check this out:
>>>>
>>>>LINK TO ARTICLE
>>>>
>>>>If link doesn't work, cut and paste:
>>>>http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-02-20-burmese-pythons_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Nothing like propaganda to start your morning. Last time I read anything from USA Today.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Ed

I just don't see Burmese pythons populating half the US in 92 years...more likely they will be extinct in the wilds of the US as they are likely to be in their native habitat along with probably 90% of the animals alive now, due to habitat destruction. Captive populations probably be the only way to ensure they survive.

The sad thing..is habitat dependent animals will be extinct in the wild, the more adoptive species, such as cane toads, Burmese pythons, rats, insects (of various types), etc...are the most likely to survive as us humans destroy the world around us. Not because some of us are irresponsible and dump unwanted pets instead of finding them new homes, but because we keep building more and more homes, using up natural resources and breed like mad.
-----
PHLdyPayne

Very well said. The premise of the article doesn't even pass the common sense test. Even global warming extremists predict a warming of only a few degrees. How the heck will a 2 or 3 degree rise in temperature make such a dramatic difference?

I also think what you said in your last sentence cannot be stressed enough, because even a lot of reptile owners seem to be arguing amongst themselves how to solve "the problem." But the "problem" is being wildly exaggerated, if not fabricated completely. I'm not convinced having a few breeding colonies of
boa constrictors and pythons in south Florida is a problem at all. Species expand their territory; it's part of nature, part of evolution.

And like you said, the most invasive, destructive species in the history of the world is Home sapiens, but somehow that seems to get lost in the shuffle.

Thanks,
Ed

>>I just don't see Burmese pythons populating half the US in 92 years...more likely they will be extinct in the wilds of the US as they are likely to be in their native habitat along with probably 90% of the animals alive now, due to habitat destruction. Captive populations probably be the only way to ensure they survive.
>>
>>The sad thing..is habitat dependent animals will be extinct in the wild, the more adoptive species, such as cane toads, Burmese pythons, rats, insects (of various types), etc...are the most likely to survive as us humans destroy the world around us. Not because some of us are irresponsible and dump unwanted pets instead of finding them new homes, but because we keep building more and more homes, using up natural resources and breed like mad.
>>-----
>>PHLdyPayne