Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is there any proof that they are breeding? Have clutches of eggs been found? Have babies been found?

I don't know, and am just asking here. It seems that every source says that they are breeding and that they are there because of released pets. However I've never heard of anything except for adults being found. Likewise I do recall a resident of the area citing a hurricane that destroyed a zoo resulting in many animals escaping.

I am sure that SOME are released pets, and SOME are ones that got out because they weren't properly housed. But I would like to see PROOF that they are breeding, and PROOF that some Zoo wasn't responsible for this before the keeping of these pythons and other species is outlawed in totality.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Here is another thought....

Back in 1978 a friend of my friends trapped a Coyote that had a metal ear tag that proved it was stocked by the PA Game commission...it was a Wolf Hybrid Coyote....They absolutely denied this fact....but now they accept it, and it is readily accepted that the Eastern Coyote is a Wolf/Coyote hybrid cross. The truth is the reason they were stocked was to control the deer population. Western Coyotes are not pack animals and max out at about 25 pounds, the Wolf/Coyote hybrid acts as a pack animal and reaches a moderate weight of about 60-70 pounds. These animals can and do control the deer population!.... Car insurance companies most likely funded the deal.

Now take the release of Burmese pythons....Florida in particular is over-run with a huge rodent called the Nutria...the wet-lands are flourishing with them, but it is said they are destroying farm lands and causing much farm crop damage....
What if these Burmese were let go strategically to control these Nutria populations?
The pet trade is taking the heat for it....
How long would it really take for these animals to acclimate and find mates and then populate thousands and thousands of acres to actually cause a problem and be a hazard?
If there are that many there...why not catch them and sell them in the pet trade? LOLOLOL...

Just my 2 cents.

Andy
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they rather take a perfectly healthy animal and euthanize it.
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My Photobucket

A quick search on Google for "burmese python egg florida" found the following link about a gravid python found with 41 eggs in the 1980s.
Florida Exotic Species Results

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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

All it really says is that "Burmese pythons have been reported from the saline glades and mangroves at the south end of Everglades National Park since at least the 1980s." but I didn't see any actual data or facts behind this statement.

It seems like a reference to an 8 year old report that speculates about burmese pythons in the 80's.

Maybe I read it incorrectly?
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Sincerely, Jason
www.NortheastSnakes.com
NortheastSnakes@verizon.net

>>Maybe I read it incorrectly?

This report references "Meshaka, W. E., Jr., W. F. Loftus, and T. Steiner. 2000. The herpetofauna of Everglades National Park. Florida Scientist 63:84-103" and what it is saying is that there have been burmese reported surviging in Monroe and Dade county since the 1980s, with sustainable breeding population within the last 10 years. "Meshaka et al. (2000) reported an established population in the southern part of Everglades National Park; almost 100 specimens of all size classes have now been captured in the park and at least 1 gravid female with 41 eggs (S. Snow, Everglades National Park, personal communication)"
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

Actually no one is for sure how long Burmese Pythons have been in the Glades but its been a long time for sure. I've worked with state biologists on documented sitings in the Western Everglades for some time. Pythons have been found as far south as the Shark River on the West Coast. If you look at a map that is 50-60 miles from the nearest road which is an indication that they have naturally colonized the entire s. third of Fl. No one took a looong boat trip to release a python. I documented a roadkill 15' snake north of Alligator Alley on s.r. 29. Indeed they are relatively abundant in certain areas. Having said this I don't think they will post much of a threat to anything except for overegulations that do not make sense and are unenforceable. It is also impossible for them to colonize desert areas and other uninhabitable terrain for Burmese. When you look at potential habitat you have to look at more than just mean temperatures. Most of the area on U.S.A. Today is uninhabitable for P. molurus. When snakes have been captured or killed and stomach contents analyzed small mammals including WILD FERAL CATS have been found. The most alarming thing about the Pythons is the fact it is sensational news. The idea of a 20' plus giant snake species living in the U.S. is of extreme interest to any news media. The fact that they are here gives ammunition for animal right nuts to attack and has little to do with the actual threat which is about nonexistant. Remember the Walking Catfish[Clarious ssp.] hoopla several decades ago here in fl. When they were discovered Fl. quickly made them illegal to import, possess, etc. The news media said these fish would destroy our native fish populations. Well they along hundreds of other alien fish are still here but its stll illegal to have a Walking Catfish even though any fresh water area is FILLED with them. BY THE WAY THE NATIVE FISH ARE DOING WELL ALSO. This Burmese Python hysteria is similar but more newsworthy and I'm afraid the same thing will happen. If today you could magically stop all imports and destroy all captives the Burmese Pythons are here to stay. At this point I believe it would be IMPOSSIBLE to eradicate Pythons from the Everglades unless they pave it over and build shopping malls. The Everglades Wilderness Area is about 4,000 square miles with very few roads. The terrain is almost impossible to travel in on foot. THE POWERS THAT BE WILL NEVER ERADICATE THEM!!! In the continental U.S. the only place they could survive and prosper would be S. Fl. and S.E. Texas. Burmese Pythons are now a permenant addition to the next Field Guide on Fl. Herps. It would be ridiculous to make these snakes illegal at this point. I think the way Fl. has regulated these snakes and a few others is both reasonable and sane. AGAIN THIS WHOLE THING IS BLOWN ALL OUT OF PROPORTION TO FACILITATE THE INFRINGEMENT OF OUR RIGHTS ONCE AGAIN. I've talked to many biologist that feel that these snakes will have little impact on anything but can't speak out. Human development does more damage in an hour than these snakes ever will in the course of history. Sorry for the rant.....TC

What I should have ask was if there are any scientific, published papers/reports of documented burms between 1980 through 2000...or if 2000 was the year when someone 1st started documenting it. It's obvious from some of the folks that live there and from some of the replies that burms existed prior to 2000 but are there any statistics (and not just folks stating that they've seen burms). Don't misinterpret...I'm not attacking you...I sincerely interested in this and hopefully my question sounds intelligent and not offending.
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Sincerely, Jason
www.NortheastSnakes.com
NortheastSnakes@verizon.net

I think that prior to 2001 even though occasional snakes were found they were thought to be escapes or releases. A wild breeding population wasn't thought to exist so few records were kept. I believe Hurricane Andrew was the final catalyst that expidited the colonization of Burmese. The epicenter of sightings is in an around the Homestead, Fl. area. Curiously enough thats where Andrew did the most damage. Believe me, snakes loose were the LEAST of our problems during that time. Personally I believe Burmese Pythons have been breeding here a long time before 2001. Its just that numbers peaked so much in 2001 that people started to take notice and investigate what was going on....TC

I didn't take it as an attack, no worries. The original poster was asking if there was any sort of record of eggs or breeding fund in the wild and I found that report. I didn't look into it too much. There is probably more info from the sources that were cited, specific numbers, etc. If I had internet at home, I would try to find it, but at work I only jump online for a short while which doesn't allow for much indepth searching. I'll see if I can find anything more specific.
Happy hunting!
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

Here's some more stuff I found searching the net:

Figures for the NPS report of captured pythons was provided by Skip Snow, wildlife biologist, Everglades
here is a report by him, lists all sizes of pythons found from 1979 to present thoughout the Everglades, also pics (for the original poster) of a burmese in the wild incubating eggs:
http://www.icais.org/pdf/2006ppt/SNOW_Skip.pdf

http://www.nps.gov/ever/naturescience/upload/2008%20Florida%20Invaders%20For%20Web.pdf
NPS.gov "Florida Invaders"
Page 4 has a study from 1995 through 2007 with numbers of pythons removed from Everglades.
Also pictures of a captured python full of eggs

a 2006 South Florida Environmental report states:
http://www.espri.org/documents/pdf/Volume1_Chapter9.pdf
"The National Park Service (NPS) staff is spearheading an unparalleled effort to develop a
species-based management plan for pythons in Everglades National Park and in lands managed
by the District in areas along the eastern and northern boundaries of the Park. In July 2005, an
international group of specialized herpetologists convened in South Florida to participate in a
workshop that focused on the issue of pythons in the Everglades. Team leaders are in the process
of drafting a management plan for the Park that will outline specific research needs, educational
needs, management needs, and a plan for early detection and rapid response.
Certain animal species distributions are tracked at a higher level of detail in South Florida,
but not in a consistent cross-taxa manner, and not by any single agency. These exceptions include
varying agency efforts to track detailed distributions of Burmese python (Python molurus
bivittatus), lobate lac scale (Paratachardina lobata lobata), and Mexican bromeliad weevil
(Metamasius callizona). While these single-species monitoring programs are successful in
tracking a specific animal, there is not a coordinated database in the state that spans taxa."

Page 55 details more specifically about the Burmese:
"Since 1995, more than 156 Burmese pythons
have been captured and removed or found dead on the road. In recent years (2003–2005)
individuals of all size classes have been seen with increasing regularity in and around the ENP."
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

yes, Biologist Skip Snow placed a micro tracking-device chip on a femalez in hopes they would find males for them to catch. He later found one of them wrapped around a clutch of eggs. and reportedly hatchlings have been found deep within the park.

last weekend here in Miami, the metrozoo and Florida fish and wildlife released a public service announcement ad in the newspaper (miami herald) aimed at kids to inform them about the dangers of letting loose exotic pets. in the ad, there was a picture of a wild caught and euthanized burm in which they dissected and found fertilized eggs inside

i honestly tried to find the above article online but there are just so many article about burms in the glades thats its just EXTREMELY difficult to find that exact one.

plus i know for sure people are still dropping off burms in the glades this past december i saw a 15 foot fresh roadkill about 2 mins east of Shark valley in the Everglades. when i examined it i noticed it had no scars or injuries or ticks other than the damage obviously caused by the vehicle that ran it over.

On Aug. 24, 1992 Hurricane Andrew hit South Florida. To this date it is probably still the most powerful hurricane to ever hit the U.S. Homestead was wiped out and the surrounding areas were just demolished. There was a lot of pets that escaped from their homes and cages at that time. People were brought in to catch some of these but for some reason snakes were not high on the capture list. Lions, tigers, and other big harmful animals were tops on the list. The Everglades has an established colony of Burms for sure. I can say for sure there has been enough caught to reach a triple digit figure and I could be wrong but I believe it is more then 200 to date. Hatched eggs and unhatched eggs have been found. In my opinion they will never be able to get rid of the burms because the Everglades is the type of area where people just can't go. It's wooded, marshey, wet lands that is a huge area, we are talking a few hundred square miles. So I believe they are there and they will be there tomorrow. It's my opinion that most of them came from the hurricane. I don't believe people from all over drive down there just to release a snake. Blaming irresponsible pet owners is what the state is doing because it is what's easiest for them. They don't have to answer any questions about anything. All they have to do is point there finger and it's a done deal. Google Hurricane Andrew for more info. I live in Florida and they just changed the laws on several of the big snakes. Florida has the kind of climate where just about anything would live and thrive regardless of what it is. So in reality no one is going to be able to prove that a hurricane released all of this wild life especially since the state is blaming bad pet owners. It's kind of like when you were a kid and you would ask your parents "why", and they would say, "because I said so". In this case the state said something so that's the way it is. It's by no means fare but they have the "power". Here's a few links.

http://www.sptimes.com/2002/webspecials02/andrew/
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/08/23/hurricane.andrew/index.html
http://water.usgs.gov/nwsum/WSP2425/andrew.html

check out you tube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TduvuKna_-o

Just my opinion.
Brian

Well said !

>>
It's kind of like when you were a kid and you would ask your parents "why", and they would say, "because I said so". In this case the state said something so that's the way it is. It's by no means fare but they have the "power". Here's a few links.
>>Just my opinion.
>>Brian
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TnK

Yes to all your questions. Gravid females, females on eggs, breeding conglomerates, babies, yearlings, all sizes have been found. Its a combo of mostly escaped roadside zoo snakes and some released.

They are worried about BURMS, yet Feral cats do 10 THOUSAND times the damage to natural wildlife. This is a witch hunt against BIG snakes. What a JOKE, and they are pathetic.

Just my 2 cents.

They say they find endangered species inside the stomachs? Where is the proof? Also, cats eat more wood rats and any other birds. But do they want to ban CATS?? NO....

It drives me NUTS....

Josh gave me this idea.... Instead of putting millions of Tax payer dollars into "STUDYING" the problem, they should just give a hillbilly a bounty of 100 bucks, and I bet you won't see another wild Burm.

WAY less money, and less waist of government spending.

I just don't don't understand the BIG gov't theroy. They want MORE and MORE control. Not to make this political, but the MAIN reason (One of thousands) that I will never vote Democrat!!!

Jeremy Stone

Ditto!

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They want MORE and MORE control. Not to make this political, but the MAIN reason (One of thousands) that I will never vote Democrat!!!
>>
>>Jeremy Stone
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TnK

I was born, raised and still live in KY. I object to the "hill billy" comment. Make the bounty $50 and a case of beer and you got a deal.

Travis

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Travis Rose
Lazy S Snake Ranch
(859) 582-7310
1.0 100% DH for Snow Boa
1.0 Hypo, 66% DH Moonglow Boa
0.1 Normal Boa
0.1 Circle Back Normal Boa
0.1 66% DH for Snow Boa
0.1 Albino het for Snow
3.3 Adult/sub adult Kenyans
0.5 Baby kenyans
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python
0.3 Dogs (1 Full Pitbull, 1 Pit/Husky, & 1 Bernese Mt. Dog cross)
0.3 Cats (1 fat, 1 old, and 1 insane)
0.1 Very understanding wife
1.0 Toddler (WC...still bites and musks)

Right on about the feral cats. I've sent my share to join the earthworms, and ferals are still killing the local wild and domestic birds.

For $100 bucks a head, I'd expect the discovery of wild Burmese pythons all over the semitropical USA, as far north as Maine and Montana.

Paul Hollander

Catch the feral catsand feed them to the pet burms so you dont need to release them in the everglades!
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My Photobucket

They have found Boas Contrictors,Cobras,Tokay Geckos,Monitors and a TON of iguanas ALL BREEDING. Some escaped from zoos During the bad hurrican years ago.I forget the name (may be hugo). Also people that buy that cute boa for their kids thats 12" and soon enough its 6' and they simply let it go. ITS SO WRONG for the ecosystem but it happens.

Michael T
Boas Etc
(203) 241-2525

THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A BREEDING POPULATION OF ANY EXOTIC VENOMOUS SNAKES FOUND IN FL. SAYING THINGS LIKE COBRAS ARE BREEDING IN FL. ONLY THROWS FUEL ON THE FIRE OF INSANITY. THAT ABSOLUTELY IS NOT TRUE!!!!!TC

Florida has been bombed with everything. One thing that's seldom talked about is feral pigs . The state is saturated with them. The list can go on and on but what's the difference ? The natural condition of the environment has been forever altered and will never return. The fragments of the ecology that remain will be forced to evolve around unnatural intervention. It's been happening that way nearly 150 years since the first population of brown anoles was recorded. Probably well before that. In many cases "invasive species" are not displacing anything what they are in fact doing is reestablishing nature to areas where it has already been displaced. Others times invasive's simply assimilate into the current system. The proof is all over my property. I witness it everyday.

There's a group here in Florida called the WATER RESOURCES ADVISORY COMMISSION. The goal is to restore the everglades / clean it up. Put it back the way it was. What they are proposing is that they can recreate evolution thru water management , invasive species removal etc. The state doesn't believe in evolution it's not legal to teach it in the class room but the same scientist that are being called frauds on one hand by the state are being called experts on the other. You really have to see these guys in action to understand just how lost they are. Their feel good objectives are not sound in principle and some are absolutely based on objectives that fall out side the "mission statement ".

What we are dealing with are academics and political business men. These guys earn their PhD's in the classroom it's all done on paper not via real life. Then they go out in the field and try to apply their classroom knowledge to life. The problem is they don't know about real life so they fall back on what they understand. Hypothesis, theory's etc. The stuff that got them passing grades in school. Their field research gets reduced to a science project conducted by individuals who do not have a working knowledge of the subject. They look for textbook answers in constantly changing equations.The highly flawed conclusions are then passed on to people who know even less for a final evaluation. The USGS map is a perfect example of how the system works. A major problem is academics are very resistant to being proven wrong and the people who enlist them are looking for validation. In these situations known facts take a back seat to theory.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

OOPS !

>>Florida has been bombed with everything. One thing that's seldom talked about is feral pigs . The state is saturated with them. The list can go on and on but what's the difference ? The natural condition of the environment has been forever altered and will never return. The fragments of the ecology that remain will be forced to evolve around unnatural intervention. It's been happening that way nearly 150 years since the first population of brown anoles was recorded. Probably well before that. In many cases "invasive species" are not displacing anything what they are in fact doing is reestablishing nature to areas where it has already been displaced. Others times invasive's simply assimilate into the current system. The proof is all over my property. I witness it everyday.
>>
>> There's a group here in Florida called the WATER RESOURCES ADVISORY COMMISSION. The goal is to restore the everglades / clean it up. Put it back the way it was. What they are proposing is that they can recreate evolution thru water management , invasive species removal etc. The state doesn't believe in evolution it's not legal to teach it in the class room but the same scientist that are being called frauds on one hand by the state are being called experts on the other. You really have to see these guys in action to understand just how lost they are. Their feel good objectives are not sound in principle and some are absolutely based on objectives that fall out side the "mission statement ".
>>
>>What we are dealing with are academics and political business men. These guys earn their PhD's in the classroom it's all done on paper not via real life. Then they go out in the field and try to apply their classroom knowledge to life. The problem is they don't know about real life so they fall back on what they understand. Hypothesis, theory's etc. The stuff that got them passing grades in school. Their field research gets reduced to a science project conducted by individuals who do not have a working knowledge of the subject. They look for textbook answers in constantly changing equations.The highly flawed conclusions are then passed on to people who know even less for a final evaluation. The USGS map is a perfect example of how the system works. A major problem is academics are very resistant to being proven wrong and the people who enlist them are looking for validation. In these situations known facts take a back seat to theory.
>>
>>Ernie Eison
>>westwoodreptiles.com
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TnK

Academic: Theoretical and of little practical value...What a beautiful and fitting definition, LOL!

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Snakes to the Max

...you buy a copy of the book below. Assuming you haven't seen it already?
Biology of the Boas and Pythons

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