Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just found this on another forum. Check out the maps at the bottom of the page. I didn't realize Burmese pythons would be able to survive the cold winters here in North Carolina. I guess they are smart enough to sneak into peoples' houses and cozy up next to the fireplace.

www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1875&from=rss_home

Thanks,
Ed

see the gators actually do eat the snakes not vice versa

GO GATORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

no that's something PETA would say. On second thought they would say it was better off if the snake died while eating the gator right (two for the price of one)????

down in florida? aren't the burms in effect doing a public service?

until, of course, somebody loses a puddle to one, then the stuff is really gonna hit the fan...

someone who knows a tad of biology. anybody freeze their burm to see if it lived? I wouldn't suggest it...

Ed, thanks so much for the map, I was wondering how untruthfully dramatic they were presente=ing it. now I know. and somehow I feel worse about it.

it was really hard for me to write this post and leave out unkind words about the government and the suddenly rich scientists that were working in tandem.

Hi Jim,
I've been a hydrologic technician for the USGS for nearly 20 years. Though I work for the Water Resources Division, I've had close contact with, and call amongst my friends, some of the biologist who work for BRD (biological resources division). These are not rich scientist. They are dedicated. I cannot vouch for the information given in the fact sheet Ed had posted but I can asure you the information was not released without serious peer review. Problem with range maps is they show a large area where a species can occur, but in reality a certain species can really only inhabit a certain area within the larger range (i.e, a python surviving along the San Pedro River in Arizona; no they would'nt probably make it 10 miles away from the riparian zone).
The USGS is an outstanding agency; I'm proud to have worked my ass off along-side some absolutely top-notch scientist. None of us are rich.
Believe it or not, some times our tax dollars are spent well.
Hopefully I've helped to de-demonize some of our government officials; we take a beating on these forums. This time it just hit a little too close to home.
Thanks for reading,
Paul

someone who knows a tad of biology. anybody freeze their burm to see if it lived? I wouldn't suggest it...

Ed, thanks so much for the map, I was wondering how untruthfully dramatic they were presente=ing it. now I know. and somehow I feel worse about it.

it was really hard for me to write this post and leave out unkind words about the government and the suddenly rich scientists that were working in tandem.

respecfully Paul, when you open a field guide to look at a range map, they are a ton more specific than that map was. for instance, next time you are at the bookstore, look at the eastern addition on peterson feild guide to reptiles and amphibians. tun to page 148. you will find everybody's favorite; the alligator snapping turtle. if you look carefully, you will notice that the range, shown in pink, goes up the mississippi and one other river.

having said that, I find any 'top-notch scientist' who paints with such a broad stroke, while the implementaion of a governmental agenda is at stake, to be HIGHLY suspect. I'm afraid it would take you(at least) four beers to convince me otherwise.

now, if you had read some of my other posts, you'd have foundnd that I am fully in fovor of some type of regulation. and I am not so naive as to beleive that us herpers are going to get anything done from within.

I realize that the scientists are not rich. that was the (I thought obviously tongue-in-cheak) allusion to pay-off money from somebody on whatever governmental commity is behind all these headaches. I was just going on the fact that a left-brained scientist would not be so far from specific within the realms of mapping out the posible habitats for our invasive freinds. I would have thought that taking the 'shot-gun' approach would not be in keeping with what should be a very finite definition of range.

also, about "serious peer review"? has any form of comity ever truely worked by your estimation? the only one that comes to mind is the declaration of independence. and now we look upon that as a subversive document, so maybe that doesn't even qualify.

as for de-demonizing government officials, you're barking up the wrong tree here my friend. but perhaps you've changed the minds of the other readers? guys, how do we feel about this?

I assume my post was not the worst you'll hear, sorry to be a fart in your soup bowl.

and if you're happy and proud about the work you do, and the people you work with, shouldn't that be enough for you? you don' need me to placate your self worth to feel good within your own skin, do you?
Jim

Thanks for being respectful (was that another tongue in check? Hard to tell on these forums). Yep, I've perused many, many field guides (avid birdwatcher) and your right, they are really detailed. However, they are depicting the range of known occurance; your comparing apples and oranges here when putting them up against a map of possible occurance especially the second map showing the expansion due to global warming. Most of the science the USGS does is cooperative; other agencies need the data and come to us. In this case (again, out of my sphere here) I'm assuming this is to help natural resource managers look into areas of possible concern. No palms being greased I'm pretty sure.
I have read some of your other posts. We'll thought out and reasonable. You were a bit off the cuff here giving me an opportunity to jump in. Thanks!

'also, about "serious peer review"? has any form of comity ever truely worked by your estimation? the only one that comes to mind is the declaration of independence. and now we look upon that as a subversive document, so maybe that doesn't even qualify.'
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here but, yes absolutly the peer review process is a extremely effective means of tightening up a study. I'm not sure what 'peers' were used here but when I put out some of my data reports they get hammered by at least three reviewers, at least one of which is completely outside our agency. It is effective.
The de-demonizing was a general statement in response to the hundreds of posts railing against government officials; not barking up the wrong tree, just using your post as a platform. Maybe I should'nt have put your name in the subject bar, seemed like I was singleing you out.

'and if you're happy and proud about the work you do, and the people you work with, shouldn't that be enough for you? you don' need me to placate your self worth to feel good within your own skin, do you?'
Did I lose your respect here Jim? Nothing like ending a post with a little slap. But since you posed this as a question I'll assume you really were looking for an answer and not just giving me a little tweek. What I wanted to emphasize here is we as an agency love the work we do and our proud in that we do it to our best abilities (some are better than others I'll admit). Its like posting a picture of your prized BRB; its not about placating oneself to feel good in your own skin (after 20 years on the water I'm afraid my skin no longer feels that good), its about putting a real entity behind the blank mask of federal anonymity. My self worth is just fine thank you.
Really though, thanks again for the response and giving me an opportunity to reply.
Respectfully,
Paul
p.s. 'four beers', sheesh, you underestimate my charm!

respecfully Paul, when you open a field guide to look at a range map, they are a ton more specific than that map was. for instance, next time you are at the bookstore, look at the eastern addition on peterson feild guide to reptiles and amphibians. tun to page 148. you will find everybody's favorite; the alligator snapping turtle. if you look carefully, you will notice that the range, shown in pink, goes up the mississippi and one other river.

having said that, I find any 'top-notch scientist' who paints with such a broad stroke, while the implementaion of a governmental agenda is at stake, to be HIGHLY suspect. I'm afraid it would take you(at least) four beers to convince me otherwise.

now, if you had read some of my other posts, you'd have foundnd that I am fully in fovor of some type of regulation. and I am not so naive as to beleive that us herpers are going to get anything done from within.

I realize that the scientists are not rich. that was the (I thought obviously tongue-in-cheak) allusion to pay-off money from somebody on whatever governmental commity is behind all these headaches. I was just going on the fact that a left-brained scientist would not be so far from specific within the realms of mapping out the posible habitats for our invasive freinds. I would have thought that taking the 'shot-gun' approach would not be in keeping with what should be a very finite definition of range.

also, about "serious peer review"? has any form of comity ever truely worked by your estimation? the only one that comes to mind is the declaration of independence. and now we look upon that as a subversive document, so maybe that doesn't even qualify.

as for de-demonizing government officials, you're barking up the wrong tree here my friend. but perhaps you've changed the minds of the other readers? guys, how do we feel about this?

I assume my post was not the worst you'll hear, sorry to be a fart in your soup bowl.

and if you're happy and proud about the work you do, and the people you work with, shouldn't that be enough for you? you don' need me to placate your self worth to feel good within your own skin, do you?

no, nothing like that. I really did meen to be respectful.

in fact, that last part was omething that I immediatly felt sory for having written. I souldn't have made the last statement a question. hwever, when people write on these things, we're talking about nameless, faceless beurocrats. I know your ame, it's Paul. and I only know it because you stuck your face up in the line of fire. it's a little off-putting that you should be surprized that something hit you in the face, due to the fact that you were the one who put it out there.

I too am an avid birder. me and the couple hat I go out with were the first people to find the piliated in DuPage county.(the following week they posted it in the chicago tribune, beforehand it was our little secret.) to be fair, the piliated's range in the books is not accurate either, so that's a point in your favor I guess, if you want to talk about broad brushes. but on the other hand, if youcan find an ivory-billed range map, they don't list where it would have propper habitat, in effect misinforming the general public. that's what upset me about the map more than anything. people in the desert are going to think that a burm is going to show up and eat their children, and that's simply not going to happen.

the second map was, of course, speculation, based on specualtion, based on speculation. I know that, you know that, but the public at large DOESN'T know that(nor your congressman). and with the first map being so incomplete(or overcomplete, as the case may be), the second map is simply worhtless in my judgment.

with the palms being greased, that was a joke. but every joke has some truth in it. some researcher or roup of same, had to put their name on this. and I wonder about their integrity due to the fact that it had to occur to them that people in-the-know would just laugh at thier findings! which makes me beleive that the process of embelished scare-tactics were in play here.(does this sound likt the current administration?) personally, I don't approve of low-level officials swaying with the wind on this issue. the good citizens of this country have quite enough to worry aout simply due to the ECONOMY! let alone whether somebody is going to have to be totin' a shotgun everytime they walk their dog in the foothills of the rockies due to some 30 foot snake lying in wait...

as a snake owner, you must feel the pressure this is putting on us, and this is why a lot of 'bashing' is going on in the forums. it's not against you, as an individual, unless you make it about you as an individual.

by the way, wasn't side-show Bob's brother the chieft hydrologic and hydrodynamic engineer on the sympsons? foiled in the attempt to flood springfield... you 'e in good company? if you're familliar with what I am refering to, I'll have you know I'm joking.

Jim

umm you guys are talking about field guide maps compared to the wide brush stroke of the projected map that ed posted... that sounds fine to me until birds where thrown in there. im a bird watcher as well, but the problem i see here is that you cant compare the natural ranges maps of birds to that of the same of snakes! birds are far more mobile therefore require a much less accurate range map...

just a thought i had while reading, i havent read the whole thread so go easy on me if i spoke out of turn or missed the point.
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

Jim, Whats the deal with the Pileated Woodpecker in DuPage County? Is this in Illinois? That would be a bit out of the range, but your right, we are talking birds and they do tend to fly around.
Really, no offense taken here. I'm familiar with 'forum' world; just not the best way to communicate.
I really do not know enough about the current goings on between Fish and Game and USGS. F@G is a regulatory agency, its what they do. They are hugely responsive to special interests; duck hunters pay a huge price for the right to pursue their interests (and if it was'nt for duck hunter the marshes and wetlands which are so hammered by developers would simply be gone, go duck hunters!!), sportsfishing pretty much dictates alot of the studies being funded here in San Francisco Bay and the estuary. F@G has alot to be desired for sure. Nothing USGS does is regulatory other than that they supply the science that drive the regulation. I'd hate to think we've lost the unbiased science which is our core and what we've always taken pride in. Having said that we have a new logo "Science for a Changing World". I absolutly cringed when they came up with that and the cryptic symbol that accompanies it. I really liked our Buffalo. Maybe things are changing in the upper circles and USGS has taken strange bedfellows. It would bother me greatly. We're supposed to be unbiased. It is our base.
I'm not worried in the least about losing my rights to keep exotic snakes. We are no longer a fringe society. There is alot of money being made now in this industry. What will happen is there is going to be some regulation. I'm all for that; I watched a mom being hounded by her two teenage sons at the Sacramento Reptile Show to buy them Burmese Pythons. She capitulated and the vendor just smiled and took the 120.00. That has to change. A balance has to be found and it will; too much money now at stake. I think the best thing that could come of this is the reptile industry gets organized and represented. PETA is so effective because they hire the right people to speak for them and they know how to push buttons. We'll be all right.

I don't watch the Simpsons anymore and really don't know why; Marg's bowling lessons are still the funniest thing I've ever seen on TV. Now that I know they've got a sinister hydrologist I'm dialing in!
Sorry I went on so long,
Paul

no, nothing like that. I really did meen to be respectful.

in fact, that last part was omething that I immediatly felt sory for having written. I souldn't have made the last statement a question. hwever, when people write on these things, we're talking about nameless, faceless beurocrats. I know your ame, it's Paul. and I only know it because you stuck your face up in the line of fire. it's a little off-putting that you should be surprized that something hit you in the face, due to the fact that you were the one who put it out there.

I too am an avid birder. me and the couple hat I go out with were the first people to find the piliated in DuPage county.(the following week they posted it in the chicago tribune, beforehand it was our little secret.) to be fair, the piliated's range in the books is not accurate either, so that's a point in your favor I guess, if you want to talk about broad brushes. but on the other hand, if youcan find an ivory-billed range map, they don't list where it would have propper habitat, in effect misinforming the general public. that's what upset me about the map more than anything. people in the desert are going to think that a burm is going to show up and eat their children, and that's simply not going to happen.

the second map was, of course, speculation, based on specualtion, based on speculation. I know that, you know that, but the public at large DOESN'T know that(nor your congressman). and with the first map being so incomplete(or overcomplete, as the case may be), the second map is simply worhtless in my judgment.

with the palms being greased, that was a joke. but every joke has some truth in it. some researcher or roup of same, had to put their name on this. and I wonder about their integrity due to the fact that it had to occur to them that people in-the-know would just laugh at thier findings! which makes me beleive that the process of embelished scare-tactics were in play here.(does this sound likt the current administration?) personally, I don't approve of low-level officials swaying with the wind on this issue. the good citizens of this country have quite enough to worry aout simply due to the ECONOMY! let alone whether somebody is going to have to be totin' a shotgun everytime they walk their dog in the foothills of the rockies due to some 30 foot snake lying in wait...

as a snake owner, you must feel the pressure this is putting on us, and this is why a lot of 'bashing' is going on in the forums. it's not against you, as an individual, unless you make it about you as an individual.

by the way, wasn't side-show Bob's brother the chieft hydrologic and hydrodynamic engineer on the sympsons? foiled in the attempt to flood springfield... you 'e in good company? if you're familliar with what I am refering to, I'll have you know I'm joking.

I agree one hundred percent. what would be key is to collect(even beter, require) donations in every state and local herp club. pool this money somehow and buy us a lobbyist. then have him/her propose our own legislation, and beat these guys to the punch. we'd hve to argue the details, of course, but we could use one of the national convetions to do that. the only problem is that it will take a lot of organization. but fortunately, I think the recources are ready and (hopefully) willing to do it.

personally, I think we'd have to give up, minimize, or tax heavily the big three snakes. but then again, I've always felt that way. we'll see what happens.

that episode of the simpsons was in season eight. it's called "the brother from another series". which is a joke about the "cheers" spinoff "frazier". you could probably netflix it, if you do that.

which 3? Condas, burms and amethystines or rocks not reticulated huh?

ahh, I consider brurms and rocks as the same thing because I don't care about taxonomic clasification, HA! I was thinking burms(adn rocks), greens, and retics. amethystine's are tiny by comparison. plus they stay thin. good question though, gotta keep me honest(and coherent) sometimes. I wouldn't include the yellows though, you gotta stay specific, ya know.

but I'm not very tall but I do fill out well but my friend Paul got me into snakes and he keeps nothing but retics and 2 wc green trees that are decent, female is real tame and feels so nice. Definately the nicest snake I have ever felt. He has a couple of females that are in the 12-13 ft range and they are a little handful by yourself when just supporting them while they stretch out 5 ft for a countertop and you start to feel a little of their power and you are almost shaking and straining while holding these monsters from going in the direction they want. His were only 60 lbs or so but all muscle as he was feeding rabbits and not guineas. I can only imagine in feeding mode what that thing could do cuz by myself it ain't happening. He is responsible and I use to help him clean his cages but haven't heard from him in a couple of months so I should prolly give him a call. Our local zoo in N.O. has an amethystine about 11-12 ft or so. I think they should be heavily restricted also but haven't ever seen an anaconda first hand but I'm not sure I want see one bigger than 6 ft or so. My friend at work has a Burmese about 8 ft or so and he is pretty responsible and has someone there during cage cleanings and whatnot. take care and nice chatting
Bob

yeah Bob, you too. and by the way, I also love retics. it's just that I think they will probably have to be lumped into this catagory.

Jim

that's a nice snake, by the way, is it yours?

Jim,
Thats Adam. He has a home here.
Thanks,
Paul

Hi Paul,

I'm sure most of USGS are good people, but the USGS is taking a beating on the forums for a reason. If you have a few minutes of spare time, do me a favor and look up some information on Burmese Pythons. Then if you can figure how a tropical snake that requires 75+ degree night-time low temps can survive a fall/winter here in central North Carolina (20 degree weather is not uncommon here in the winter), then please let me know.

Very nice BRB, btw!

Thanks,
Ed

>>Hi Jim,
>>I've been a hydrologic technician for the USGS for nearly 20 years. Though I work for the Water Resources Division, I've had close contact with, and call amongst my friends, some of the biologist who work for BRD (biological resources division). These are not rich scientist. They are dedicated. I cannot vouch for the information given in the fact sheet Ed had posted but I can asure you the information was not released without serious peer review. Problem with range maps is they show a large area where a species can occur, but in reality a certain species can really only inhabit a certain area within the larger range (i.e, a python surviving along the San Pedro River in Arizona; no they would'nt probably make it 10 miles away from the riparian zone).
>>The USGS is an outstanding agency; I'm proud to have worked my ass off along-side some absolutely top-notch scientist. None of us are rich.
>>Believe it or not, some times our tax dollars are spent well.
>>Hopefully I've helped to de-demonize some of our government officials; we take a beating on these forums. This time it just hit a little too close to home.
>>Thanks for reading,
>>Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>someone who knows a tad of biology. anybody freeze their burm to see if it lived? I wouldn't suggest it...
>>
>>Ed, thanks so much for the map, I was wondering how untruthfully dramatic they were presente=ing it. now I know. and somehow I feel worse about it.
>>
>>it was really hard for me to write this post and leave out unkind words about the government and the suddenly rich scientists that were working in tandem.
>>
>>
>>

Hi Ed,

Your right, most of the people working for the USGS are good people; unfortunately we have our share of turds (if I disappear its because big brotha saw this and I've been shipped off to Wisconsin (just kidding all you badgers)).
Us government officials have no spare time; nose to the grindstone you know, no rest for the wicked. I will actually look into some of these 'facts'. Mistakes are not as rare as we'd like. I live in Sacramento and work in the San Francisco Bay; I too would like to know how a Burm would make it here in the winter. Good fodder.
Thanks Ed for introducing the thread and complimenting my BRB Adam. I got to participate which I don't do enough of (or maybe people think this was more than enough!).
Take care,
Paul
p.s A picture of Eve, Adams girlfriend.

I'm sure most of USGS are good people, but the USGS is taking a beating on the forums for a reason. If you have a few minutes of spare time, do me a favor and look up some information on Burmese Pythons. Then if you can figure how a tropical snake that requires 75 degree night-time low temps can survive a fall/winter here in central North Carolina (20 degree weather is not uncommon here in the winter), then please let me know.

Very nice BRB, btw!

southern LA we are having 70 degree weather again but 3 nights ago it was in the 30's minus the wind factor leaving ice on everyone's windshield. Sparatic weather conditions, crime, and the lack of hospitality-they don't have a chance here either I'm afraid of.
Bob

Bob,
I'm betting in LA you'd be seeing a bunch of really pretty boots and belts if the burms were to invade!
Paul

for a dollar, I couldn't agree more with you more Paul

lets tanke em all up to new york for the summer to take care of the rat infestation.... lol then again i dont know if a burm is big enough to eat a NY RAT!!!
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

~

Paul,
..We all like you here. And USGS is okay in my book. I like the maps they publish and I find their survey markers in all the best places. So, I was VERY surprised to see that Burmese Python misinformation posted on the USGS website. It does look like some of the PETA aligned rubber heads in US Fish and Wildlife may have "friends" in USGS. Nice looking BRBs there.
Jeff

>>Hi Ed,
>>
>>Your right, most of the people working for the USGS are good people; unfortunately we have our share of turds (if I disappear its because big brotha saw this and I've been shipped off to Wisconsin (just kidding all you badgers)).
>>Us government officials have no spare time; nose to the grindstone you know, no rest for the wicked. I will actually look into some of these 'facts'. Mistakes are not as rare as we'd like. I live in Sacramento and work in the San Francisco Bay; I too would like to know how a Burm would make it here in the winter. Good fodder.
>>Thanks Ed for introducing the thread and complimenting my BRB Adam. I got to participate which I don't do enough of (or maybe people think this was more than enough!).
>>Take care,
>>Paul
>>p.s A picture of Eve, Adams girlfriend.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I'm sure most of USGS are good people, but the USGS is taking a beating on the forums for a reason. If you have a few minutes of spare time, do me a favor and look up some information on Burmese Pythons. Then if you can figure how a tropical snake that requires 75 degree night-time low temps can survive a fall/winter here in central North Carolina (20 degree weather is not uncommon here in the winter), then please let me know.
>>
>>Very nice BRB, btw!
>>

Jeff,
In my response to Jim I went on and on about F@G and the USGS. I won't repeat it hear but I certainly can see how skepticism can arise from some of these publications. I'm not sure what misinformation was posted on the USGS website but I suspect you mean the habitat requirements of these snakes. I really do want to look into that and just may email the author for some clarification. Maybe they know something we don't? I just do not know enough about the Burm in its native environment to comment accurately. Its possible that there is some familiarity amongst biologists working for both F@G and USGS. With all I know about this organization, I just really dought it. This maybe a case of just simple bad science in which case I assure you it will not go unnoticed and unrectified. Too much at stack on alot of different levels.
Thanks for the compliments on the BRB's. Nice we can sometimes stay on topic.
Paul

We all like you here. And USGS is okay in my book. I like the maps they publish and I find their survey markers in all the best places. So, I was VERY surprised to see that Burmese Python misinformation posted on the USGS website. It does look like some of the PETA aligned rubber heads in US Fish and Wildlife may have "friends" in USGS. Nice looking BRBs there.
Jeff

Hi Paul,

Thanks, I'm usually not this uptight and I apologize if I said anything directed at you, but this has been an eye-opening experience for me. I guess I was a little naive.

Anyway, thanks for the pictures, you have some really nice BRB's! Please participate in the forum as much as possible. The last couple days have been about as heated (if you can even call it heated) as it gets here.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Hi Ed,
>>
>>Your right, most of the people working for the USGS are good people; unfortunately we have our share of turds (if I disappear its because big brotha saw this and I've been shipped off to Wisconsin (just kidding all you badgers)).
>>Us government officials have no spare time; nose to the grindstone you know, no rest for the wicked. I will actually look into some of these 'facts'. Mistakes are not as rare as we'd like. I live in Sacramento and work in the San Francisco Bay; I too would like to know how a Burm would make it here in the winter. Good fodder.
>>Thanks Ed for introducing the thread and complimenting my BRB Adam. I got to participate which I don't do enough of (or maybe people think this was more than enough!).
>>Take care,
>>Paul
>>p.s A picture of Eve, Adams girlfriend.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I'm sure most of USGS are good people, but the USGS is taking a beating on the forums for a reason. If you have a few minutes of spare time, do me a favor and look up some information on Burmese Pythons. Then if you can figure how a tropical snake that requires 75 degree night-time low temps can survive a fall/winter here in central North Carolina (20 degree weather is not uncommon here in the winter), then please let me know.
>>
>>Very nice BRB, btw!
>>

The last couple days have been about as heated (if you can even call it heated) as it gets here.

Hey Ed,
I did'nt think anything you wrote was inflammatory. I disagree that the USGS report is 'ridiculous'; maybe somewhat inaccurate but I just don't know enough about what a wild population of Burms can tolerate to survive. Invasive species are a real problem; there is no dought of this. Are invasive Burmese pythons a real problem? Alot of people seem to think so. I really don't know. What I do know is that agencies like F@G that are regulatory and have to deal with very real invasive species problems (Northern pike in California, Zebra Mussels in the Great Lakes and beyond, and on and on) tend to lump all invasive species into the same pot so that they can approach an issue consistently and with the same regulatory tools already in place.
I really do not think F@G is in PETA'S pocket. The duck hunters would flat out kick the crap out of them. You don't mess with duck hunters and Stipped Bass fishermen. These boys mean serious business.
Boy, get me going....
Thanks Ed,
Paul

hunt and/or fish??? here is a link to a post on the boa forum that was real good about the burms

forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1479037,1479697

Bob,
I love to fish but do it too infrequently. When people hear what I do for a living they always ask if I keep a pole handy (nope, I don't). I've got a couple of guns (S@W model 629, Rutger .22 rifle) but I just like to shoot at inanimate objects. Some of my friends are hunters and I never turn them down when they offer me some of their spoils (man I like Elk).
Good thread you linked. I do think most people underestimate a species adaptive nature when it comes to survival. It's been shown that evolution is not always the long, drawn out process once believed. Time will certainly tell.
Paul

Paul, the report was not only rediculous, it was inaccurate, and rediculously inaccurate. read a burm caresheet, PLEASE

Jim

Jim,
I went back to that USGS report. It is not a USGS report. What it is is an article written by the National Park Service (pretty sure this is the source, see their emblem within the article). The USGS did do the maps. This report was presented on the USGS website under News reports or some such thing. What this is is a website that presents any news reports that mention the USGS. All USGS websites have this, its to show we are pertinent and people write about us. I should have read it closer this morning. The maps are USGS, all the rest of the article is something else. Maybe they are rediculously inaccurate. But we can't assertain that from caresheets.
Caresheets are for captive husbandry. The information presented in them is limited to say the least and defined by the narrow parameters that snakes are kept in captivity. The caresheets you'll find for BRB's in no way define the real conditions in which they exists. They are written so that we can keep these snakes alive in our care. I suspect the caresheets for Burms are the same, actually I know they are.
Such a great discussion! No wonder this forum kicks butt.
Paul

Paul,
..It is a great discussion and your input kicks butt just like everyone else's input.
Life is good,
Jeff

>>Jim,
>>I went back to that USGS report. It is not a USGS report. What it is is an article written by the National Park Service (pretty sure this is the source, see their emblem within the article). The USGS did do the maps. This report was presented on the USGS website under News reports or some such thing. What this is is a website that presents any news reports that mention the USGS. All USGS websites have this, its to show we are pertinent and people write about us. I should have read it closer this morning. The maps are USGS, all the rest of the article is something else. Maybe they are rediculously inaccurate. But we can't assertain that from caresheets.
>>Caresheets are for captive husbandry. The information presented in them is limited to say the least and defined by the narrow parameters that snakes are kept in captivity. The caresheets you'll find for BRB's in no way define the real conditions in which they exists. They are written so that we can keep these snakes alive in our care. I suspect the caresheets for Burms are the same, actually I know they are.
>>Such a great discussion! No wonder this forum kicks butt.
>>Paul

Paul, it IS the MAPS that are a problem!(specifically the first one, where they were working with REAL data) I don't know why you're whipping a dead horse here.

I kept my burm in a walk in cage in the basement. when I was away at college, my kane heat mat shorted out.(it was old and beat up, good products though). daytime temps got up to the seventies and nightimes got down to the HIGH 60's. he got a respiratory infection and DIED. period.

you can go on and on about your agency(and it sounds like you will) but the fact of the matter is you're wrong. I don't know how to say it any plainer. you're not going to get anybody to concede here that the map is somehow not a joke.

I'm glad you like the forum; I'm finding otherwise. at least when I talk to my snakes/torts/fish/plants they keep it to themselves if they want to avoid reality in one aspect or another. I think I'm done with it(and you)[claps hands twice in quick succesion], until I have a specific question for the experts here. this thread has taught me how much time you can waist with people unwilling to look at facts.

no reply necessary
Jim

p.s. of COURSE I'll let you have the last word, it sounds like you need it.

Paul,
..You wrote
"You don't mess with duck hunters and Stipped Bass fishermen."

.....Perhaps I did not see a smile that was possibly on your face when you wrote that statement but....I have to ask. Why would you want to mess with Duck Hunters and Striped Bass Fishermen? Their organizations such as Ducks Unlimited and The Striped Bass Coalition and Stripers Forever and California Striped Bass Association have envious records for protecting their favorite species. They have spent megamillions of dollars providing ideal habitat for these animals. Too bad the federal government's record on waterfowl and Striped Bass management is not as good. What is it that those groups do that would cause heartburn for a civil servant? Would you ever consider that those private citizens may have a more genuine interest in and knowledge about their respective favorite resource than a civil servant would? Likewise would you coinsider it possible that US Fish and Wildlife might be totally wrong in their attempts to keep we private experts from working with our animals? It seems to me that the BIG problem is that too many civil servants have forgotten that they work for the people and their goals should not be to abridge our liberities and pursuit of happiness. I know that you will probably argue that Striped Bass are not native to California and so Striped Bass Fishermen in California should not have any say in water management issues effecting them. To which I reply, It was the government that originally stocked Striped Bass in California and the sport fishery for Striped Bass is now economically important not to mention those previously mentioned rights to liberty and the pursuit of happiness of the fishermen. However, there are a bunch of lakes in California that are not natural lakes. (most of the man made lakes all over the country are good things BTW) I used to keep and breed Burmese Pythons and I assure you that they could not survive a winter anywhere north of Florida or extreme southern Texas. Those Burmese Python potential range maps on the USGS website are laughable. To say that it might just be an honest mistake is just plain silly coming at the same time that US Fish and Wildlife is trying to destroy our hobby. It is not a coincidence that these two government agencies are talking about the same issue at the same time. The federal government needs to get out of the way of good people doing good things. BTW, Like I mentioned in my previous post I have a very positive feeling about the work of USGS but, I do not like seeing them aligning on the side of Fish and Wildlife on the boid control issue.
Jeff

>>Hey Ed,
>>I did'nt think anything you wrote was inflammatory. I disagree that the USGS report is 'ridiculous'; maybe somewhat inaccurate but I just don't know enough about what a wild population of Burms can tolerate to survive. Invasive species are a real problem; there is no dought of this. Are invasive Burmese pythons a real problem? Alot of people seem to think so. I really don't know. What I do know is that agencies like F@G that are regulatory and have to deal with very real invasive species problems (Northern pike in California, Zebra Mussels in the Great Lakes and beyond, and on and on) tend to lump all invasive species into the same pot so that they can approach an issue consistently and with the same regulatory tools already in place.
>>I really do not think F@G is in PETA'S pocket. The duck hunters would flat out kick the crap out of them. You don't mess with duck hunters and Stipped Bass fishermen. These boys mean serious business.
>>Boy, get me going....
>>Thanks Ed,
>>Paul

Paul,
Reading your other posts I see that you are already familiar with the good works of the duck hunting and Striped Bass fishing groups. So....nevermind. BTW over the last few years we have noticed lots more Piliated Woodpeckers around the Smoky Mountains. They are so common here in Savannah GA that I often see them in my yard.
Jeff

>>Paul,
>>..You wrote
>>"You don't mess with duck hunters and Stipped Bass fishermen."
>>
>>.....Perhaps I did not see a smile that was possibly on your face when you wrote that statement but....I have to ask. Why would you want to mess with Duck Hunters and Striped Bass Fishermen? Their organizations such as Ducks Unlimited and The Striped Bass Coalition and Stripers Forever and California Striped Bass Association have envious records for protecting their favorite species. They have spent megamillions of dollars providing ideal habitat for these animals. Too bad the federal government's record on waterfowl and Striped Bass management is not as good. What is it that those groups do that would cause heartburn for a civil servant? Would you ever consider that those private citizens may have a more genuine interest in and knowledge about their respective favorite resource than a civil servant would? Likewise would you coinsider it possible that US Fish and Wildlife might be totally wrong in their attempts to keep we private experts from working with our animals? It seems to me that the BIG problem is that too many civil servants have forgotten that they work for the people and their goals should not be to abridge our liberities and pursuit of happiness. I know that you will probably argue that Striped Bass are not native to California and so Striped Bass Fishermen in California should not have any say in water management issues effecting them. To which I reply, It was the government that originally stocked Striped Bass in California and the sport fishery for Striped Bass is now economically important not to mention those previously mentioned rights to liberty and the pursuit of happiness of the fishermen. However, there are a bunch of lakes in California that are not natural lakes. (most of the man made lakes all over the country are good things BTW) I used to keep and breed Burmese Pythons and I assure you that they could not survive a winter anywhere north of Florida or extreme southern Texas. Those Burmese Python potential range maps on the USGS website are laughable. To say that it might just be an honest mistake is just plain silly coming at the same time that US Fish and Wildlife is trying to destroy our hobby. It is not a coincidence that these two government agencies are talking about the same issue at the same time. The federal government needs to get out of the way of good people doing good things. BTW, Like I mentioned in my previous post I have a very positive feeling about the work of USGS but, I do not like seeing them aligning on the side of Fish and Wildlife on the boid control issue.
>>Jeff
>>
>>>>Hey Ed,
>>>>I did'nt think anything you wrote was inflammatory. I disagree that the USGS report is 'ridiculous'; maybe somewhat inaccurate but I just don't know enough about what a wild population of Burms can tolerate to survive. Invasive species are a real problem; there is no dought of this. Are invasive Burmese pythons a real problem? Alot of people seem to think so. I really don't know. What I do know is that agencies like F@G that are regulatory and have to deal with very real invasive species problems (Northern pike in California, Zebra Mussels in the Great Lakes and beyond, and on and on) tend to lump all invasive species into the same pot so that they can approach an issue consistently and with the same regulatory tools already in place.
>>>>I really do not think F@G is in PETA'S pocket. The duck hunters would flat out kick the crap out of them. You don't mess with duck hunters and Stipped Bass fishermen. These boys mean serious business.
>>>>Boy, get me going....
>>>>Thanks Ed,
>>>>Paul

Jeff,
In a way I'm glad you misunderstood my post; it prompted you to write an excellent commentary on the organizations that really do make things happen.
Funny you should mention Pileateds in the Smokeys; its where I finally got my first good look at one. Actually a pair tearing into a rotten log about 20 ft. in front of me.
Back to BRB's.
Thanks,
Paul

like the O/T reading

>>I cannot vouch for the information given in the fact sheet Ed had posted but I can asure you the information was not released without serious peer review.

Hi Paul,

The USGS is taking a beating on the forums for a reason. I'm not a PhD with a degree in biology, but even I (as well as my 12 yearld son) know that a Burmese Python won't survive the fall/winter/possibly spring in central North Carolina (where we live) and Virginia.

IMO, you shouldn't be upset with the forums. The forums aren't the problem here.

I'm sure a whole lot of good, honest people work for USGS, but again, that will get overlooked when nonsense like this is released. If it's not nonsense, I'd love to see the research/report from which the conclusion came. Any idea if it's possible for the public to look at it?

Nice BRB, btw!

Thanks,
Ed

I thought the first one didn't work since I got a strange "Message Expired" message after I tried posting it..

what we are going through. You said

I'm sure a whole lot of good, honest people work for USGS, but again, that will get overlooked when nonsense like this is released

Now let me change a couple of words.

I'm sure a whole lot of good, responsible[ people keep snakes for a hobby, but again, that will get overlooked when people release burms in Florida

Good point... except that there is a big difference between
a federal government agency and an irresponsible individual bubba down in south Florida.

>>what we are going through. You said
>>
>>I'm sure a whole lot of good, honest people work for USGS, but again, that will get overlooked when nonsense like this is released
>>
>>
>>Now let me change a couple of words.
>>
>>I'm sure a whole lot of good, responsible[ people keep snakes for a hobby, but again, that will get overlooked when people release burms in Florida

a few f--k it up for others though, you agree?

Sure, I agree to a point. But a government agency is *supposed* to have checks and balances. There is a big difference between a *Federally* funded agency releasing completely ridiculous data on, at best, a state problem, and an individual dumb Joe Sixpack down in a south Florida letting a snake go. The former means that there is more than just one person involved in the deception. It also means that all this discussion we're having about self-regulation will probably be moot anyway, because if this type of Federal gov't activity continues, we won't be allowed to have any "exotic snakes."

But let's take a step back, Bob.
Why are so many in this and other forums even accepting that there is a huge problem down in south Florida? Where is the evidence that these pythons have any small, much less dramatically negative, impact on the local environment? PETA
already has you sucked in my friend... that's how good they are.

Thanks,
Ed

>>a few f--k it up for others though, you agree?

thats a really good point i didnt think of that.... i dont think anyone else has either...

so how do we find non influenced facts about actual burms in FL
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

Thanks Stephen. Unfortunately, I can't answer your question. I don't know if any unbiased research has been done, or really any research at all. My gut feeling (which obviously isn't scientific research) is that a few pythons in the Everglades won't have any net effect on local wildlife. Keep in mind they eat rats and stray cats, two animals which *cause* damage to indigenous/endangered species and/or humans.

I think if you read Tom Crutchfield's posts (username "herpsltd" on the Boa Forum, that helps. He lives down there at "ground zero" and seems to have more knowledge than most.

Sorry, I wish I had a better answer!

Thanks,
Ed

>>thats a really good point i didnt think of that.... i dont think anyone else has either...
>>
>>so how do we find non influenced facts about actual burms in FL
>>-----
>>-Stephen-
>>
>>0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
>>1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
>>1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
>>0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
>>0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
>>
>>hopeful for not to distant future:
>>--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
>> 2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
>>-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...
>>
>>more distant future hopefuls
>>1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
>>--anery boa (ooooh)
>>--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
>>--dumeril boa (ahhhh)
>>
>>slightly more wishful thinking
>>--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
>>--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
>>--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

lolStephen

pay me to post good about them subconsciously. But on a real note Ed I think we found out something you like-DEBATINGlol but I know you are just reading between the lines and deciphering through all that crap they are dishing out. Lie and deceit and has been in the government for centuries if you're wondering all the way up to the president.

No matter where you go in life there will always be a select few to mess it up for others no matter if it's a mulit-million dollar snake industry, unlimited funded government or the person that leaves the bucket of Halloween candy on their porch with a sign that says PLEASE TAKE ONLY TWO and the bucket is emptied out or picked clean for all of the good stuff It's a never ending cycle I'm afraid of but I believe in a system of checks and balances just not by the government that's all

I agree with prolly everything you are saying and Tom Crutchfield made a great post on the burms in Florida on the boa forum and here's the link if you didn't read it

forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1479037,1479697

how is that litter making out these days? Good to see you posting again

Hey Bob,
I'm now down to one. That BRB black hole also known as Dave picked up the group so he could add some real beauty to his collection. Or maybe he just shipped them out as second grade castoffs to make a quick buck. Never know with that Dave.
By the way I did get to see the Colling collection. In a word, WOW. Even my wife was impressed though she started wearing out after the first hour of Dave and I playing.
Hows that gorgeous het of yours doing? Don't be holding back now.
Paul

He would be better if he had someone from your litter that was nice and light to keep him company boy or girl but maybe next year. You better watch out for Dave cuz he is greedy like that If you ever produce a really light one please e-mail me. He (male het) is alright just wish I could capture that red on him but no luck and with my camera and skills it won't be no time soon eitherlol here's a couple of him

different times

and one I never posted before- normal female

That is not a normal. Just beautiful. I got to handle some of the siblings to your het and they are just awesome. Yours is spectacular.
OK, enough back-slapping, I've got to get on my bike and peddle to work (life is hard).
Paul

work for the government just poking you with some good humor

okay yes they dont stand a chance to live winters any north of FL lol but how about in the west?? nevermind the winters they wouldnt survive a week in dry summer of NM and AZ!!!! lol forget cold what about the hot
-----
-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

Absolutely. I was just using the area in which I live as an example. Anyone who does a quick google search on "Burmese Python Care sheet" will understand why this USGS map is pissing people off.

Thanks,
Ed

>>okay yes they dont stand a chance to live winters any north of FL lol but how about in the west?? nevermind the winters they wouldnt survive a week in dry summer of NM and AZ!!!! lol forget cold what about the hot
>>-----
>>-Stephen-
>>
>>0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
>>1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
>>1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
>>0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
>>0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)
>>
>>hopeful for not to distant future:
>>--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
>> 2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
>>-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...
>>
>>more distant future hopefuls
>>1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
>>--anery boa (ooooh)
>>--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
>>--dumeril boa (ahhhh)
>>
>>slightly more wishful thinking
>>--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
>>--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
>>--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

Please keep in mind we do have a panel chat scheduled Friday, February 29, at 10 PM Eastern to discuss the Federal proposed ban.

For more information, check the link below:
www.kingsnake.com/articles/HerpChat10.html
-----
PHLdyPayne