Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Today HerpDigest has received a copy of the now infamous USGS paper –

“What Parts Of The US Mainland Are Climatically Suitable For Invasive Alien Pythons Spreading From Everglades National Park? “ by Gordon H. Rodda, Catherine S. Jarnevich, and Robert N. Reed.

Yes, this is the paper the USGS issued a press release on two days ago, which has resulted in articles having been written on it all over the U.S., arguments about it cropping up in almost every herp-related forum and more.

Articles and comments that have ranged from thoughtful to downright paranoid, about the author’s conclusions, techniques, results and motivations.

But before you read the paper, I suggest you read the following emailed response to a request for more information from a B.W. Smith to one of the paper’s authors, Dr. Gordon Rodda.

Dr. Rodda not only answers Mr. Smith’s questions, but he uses the opportunity to address, to the best of his ability, as someone who knows about invasive snakes (he worked on the brown tree snake tragedy in Guam) all the questions that have come up about the recent USF&WS’s “Call for Information,”, on the listing the Burmese Python as well as other snakes as invasive species, which could result in the banning of their importation.

For a copy of the paper (word format only) and the charts that go along with it (jpg format) just email me at asalzberg@herpdigest.org. Only electronic versions are available.

My thanks to the authors for their permission to distribute the paper and reprint the following email.

Allen Salzberg
Publisher/Editor
Herpdigest

_________________________________________________________________
Dear B. W. Smith,

Thanks for contacting me. I appreciate the opportunity to flesh out the statements that have appeared in the media (some of which are actually correct!). I've attached a copy of the paper on which the media coverage is based. I hope you will see that a rational process was used to derive the climate envelope that was then mapped onto the US. Keep in mind that Python molurus occurs in extremely arid areas of Pakistan (both the Lower Indus Valley and Upper Indus Valley, but not the middle Indus!) Keep in mind also that we matched climate (long term average precipitation and long term average temperature) throughout the year. Climate has an influence on almost all aspects of the environment, and therefore is a good proxy for prey availability, habitat, and so forth, but assuredly not an idea proxy for any of those. We recognize that there are many factors that influence the distribution of a species, and if we had the data, we would consider them all. In the ab!
sence of the relevant data, one makes due with what is available, keeping in mind its limitations (generally not reported in the media).

There are many python breeders who have contacted me in great alarm, for fear that the Fish and Wildlife Service's call for information on invasive python risks is a prelude to banning the trade. The trade is well understood to be a source of invasive species, and this is a great concern to all of us, and there are those outside of government who welcome an opportunity to shut down the trade. However, I do not believe that the Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) is among them. Indeed, I don't believe the FWS has an agenda in this case (they are merely vetting a petition that was given to them). The FWS employee who was handling these matters has retired, and therefore the new person who will end up handling this matter (as far as I know, the new person has not been named) is coming to it with an open mind. I encourage herpetoculturalists to likewise keep an open mind. Recognize that there is a problem with released pets, and propose solutions to that problem that a!
re in keeping with their concerns. I believe (though I certainly do not speak for them) that the FWS would even consider constructive suggestions as to how the process of regulating potential invaders could be improved. It is a complex and difficult problem, with no obvious solution. Think creatively! This is an opportunity to greatly influence the ways in which the problem of invasive reptiles are addressed.

Please feel free also to contact me further. I encourage you to read the attached manuscript (it is in Press in the scientific journal Biological Invasions), and share it with colleagues. I'll be happy to answer questions to the best of my ability. There are some pretty big unknowns out there; for example, we have very little accurate information on the range of P. molurus in Pakistan or west central China. If you know of documented but unpublished facts that would help resolve any of the uncertainties, those would be especially welcome.

Thanks again for giving me the opportunity to expand on the very limited coverage possible through the mass media.

Cheers,

Gordon Rodda
USGS Fort Collins Science Center
2150 Centre Ave., Bldg. C
Fort Collins CO 80526

(This message was sent to jcrickmer1@austin.rr.com)

I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS SENT TO ALL, OR JUST TO ME.
HE IS PROBABLY GETTING SOME FEEDBACK FROM SOME OF YOU PEOPLE. I DO RECOMMEND YOU SUBSCRIBE TO HIS PUBLICATION. IT DOESN'T COST A THING.
JSC
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John,

Thanks for posting this. Aside from validity (or lack thereof)of that map, what concerns me is "Recognize that there is a problem with released pets, and propose solutions to that problem that are in keeping with their concerns. ... It is a complex and difficult problem, with no obvious solution."

Kind of subtle, but notice the good Dr. simply asks (demands?) us to concede that there is "a problem" that HAS to be addressed.
I say BS. Show me some data; some real, unbiased data. How do we know that the pythons might not actually be HELPING certain endangered species? And if they're not, aren't there other species (rats,stray cats, dogs, "exotic" plans, homo sapiens, etc.) that cause much more damage to the local environment, that should be way higher up on the priority list? Heck, pythons EAT RATS! They are also a food source for other animals.

It seems like a lot of reptile hobbyists have already accepted that "something needs to be done" on a national level. IMO, this means that we've already lost the battle.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Today HerpDigest has received a copy of the now infamous USGS paper –
>>
>>“What Parts Of The US Mainland Are Climatically Suitable For Invasive Alien Pythons Spreading From Everglades National Park? “ by Gordon H. Rodda, Catherine S. Jarnevich, and Robert N. Reed.
>>
>>Yes, this is the paper the USGS issued a press release on two days ago, which has resulted in articles having been written on it all over the U.S., arguments about it cropping up in almost every herp-related forum and more.
>>
>>Articles and comments that have ranged from thoughtful to downright paranoid, about the author’s conclusions, techniques, results and motivations.
>>
>>But before you read the paper, I suggest you read the following emailed response to a request for more information from a B.W. Smith to one of the paper’s authors, Dr. Gordon Rodda.
>>
>>Dr. Rodda not only answers Mr. Smith’s questions, but he uses the opportunity to address, to the best of his ability, as someone who knows about invasive snakes (he worked on the brown tree snake tragedy in Guam) all the questions that have come up about the recent USF&WS’s “Call for Information,”, on the listing the Burmese Python as well as other snakes as invasive species, which could result in the banning of their importation.
>>
>>For a copy of the paper (word format only) and the charts that go along with it (jpg format) just email me at asalzberg@herpdigest.org. Only electronic versions are available.
>>
>>My thanks to the authors for their permission to distribute the paper and reprint the following email.
>>
>>Allen Salzberg
>>Publisher/Editor
>>Herpdigest
>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Dear B. W. Smith,
>>
>> Thanks for contacting me. I appreciate the opportunity to flesh out the statements that have appeared in the media (some of which are actually correct!). I've attached a copy of the paper on which the media coverage is based. I hope you will see that a rational process was used to derive the climate envelope that was then mapped onto the US. Keep in mind that Python molurus occurs in extremely arid areas of Pakistan (both the Lower Indus Valley and Upper Indus Valley, but not the middle Indus!) Keep in mind also that we matched climate (long term average precipitation and long term average temperature) throughout the year. Climate has an influence on almost all aspects of the environment, and therefore is a good proxy for prey availability, habitat, and so forth, but assuredly not an idea proxy for any of those. We recognize that there are many factors that influence the distribution of a species, and if we had the data, we would consider them all. In the ab!
>> sence of the relevant data, one makes due with what is available, keeping in mind its limitations (generally not reported in the media).
>>
>> There are many python breeders who have contacted me in great alarm, for fear that the Fish and Wildlife Service's call for information on invasive python risks is a prelude to banning the trade. The trade is well understood to be a source of invasive species, and this is a great concern to all of us, and there are those outside of government who welcome an opportunity to shut down the trade. However, I do not believe that the Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) is among them. Indeed, I don't believe the FWS has an agenda in this case (they are merely vetting a petition that was given to them). The FWS employee who was handling these matters has retired, and therefore the new person who will end up handling this matter (as far as I know, the new person has not been named) is coming to it with an open mind. I encourage herpetoculturalists to likewise keep an open mind. Recognize that there is a problem with released pets, and propose solutions to that problem that a!
>> re in keeping with their concerns. I believe (though I certainly do not speak for them) that the FWS would even consider constructive suggestions as to how the process of regulating potential invaders could be improved. It is a complex and difficult problem, with no obvious solution. Think creatively! This is an opportunity to greatly influence the ways in which the problem of invasive reptiles are addressed.
>>
>> Please feel free also to contact me further. I encourage you to read the attached manuscript (it is in Press in the scientific journal Biological Invasions), and share it with colleagues. I'll be happy to answer questions to the best of my ability. There are some pretty big unknowns out there; for example, we have very little accurate information on the range of P. molurus in Pakistan or west central China. If you know of documented but unpublished facts that would help resolve any of the uncertainties, those would be especially welcome.
>>
>> Thanks again for giving me the opportunity to expand on the very limited coverage possible through the mass media.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>Gordon Rodda
>>USGS Fort Collins Science Center
>>2150 Centre Ave., Bldg. C
>>Fort Collins CO 80526
>>
>>
>>(This message was sent to jcrickmer1@austin.rr.com)
>>
>>I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS SENT TO ALL, OR JUST TO ME.
>>HE IS PROBABLY GETTING SOME FEEDBACK FROM SOME OF YOU PEOPLE. I DO RECOMMEND YOU SUBSCRIBE TO HIS PUBLICATION. IT DOESN'T COST A THING.
>>JSC
>>-----
>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer

Ed I couldn't make it no further than this sentence of stupidity

Keep in mind also that we matched climate (long term average precipitation and long term average temperature) throughout the year.

Long term average temperature haha. Yesterday weather in N.O. was 70 but clearly in the mid 40's with lots of wind at night so I guess if you take the "average long term temperature" then they will make it here

tell that retard who wrote that article and anyone else commenting on this subject, that unless you keep snakes (colubrids don't count sorry people) or have kept one of the big 5 then to leave your comment out of it cuz you don't know crapola

B.W. Smith does have the Phantom Boa though and it is very pretty

Tom Crutchfield mentioned yesterday in his post that mentioned
If you look at a map that is 50-60 miles from the nearest road......... If they are truely 50-60 miles from the nearest road then why are people acting crazy in histeria like when you open your front door and walk to the mailbox you need someone to wathc cuz you may get eaten, if you choose to go out alone in the Everglades then hopefully you are aware of what could happen regardless of what is out there and he goes on to mention that the hurricanes and zoos have something to do with the problem also along with releases and I also strongly agree with Tom that- who travels 60 miles to release a snake come on???????? If you get stopped 40 miles in and they find out you have a burm in a box I mean come on.

Unfortunately Ed they will keep throwing fictional info to the best of their ability (truely sad that these people went to school and got a piece of paper that is about as useless as 12 inches of Charmin) if they use it right which I don't think they are capable of

One more quote from that
we have very little accurate information on the range of P. molurus in Pakistan or west central China

If they don't know over there then how would they know over here. More quesstimates made by retards.

They are worried about burms that have been recovered either dead or alive in the Everglades while we have over 300 murders a year in dozens of cities. We give away billions is welfare to mothers that quite simply, can't keep their legs..........and now I am supporting their 4 children from 4 different fathers off of my taxes so I am glad that they are pissing away money where "they see fit". That's about all I got so read it before they yank it
Bob

i live in the green area of that map and it was and is every winter freezing for many days at a time. far too cold!

Hey Bob,

You know how much I like to argue, but I can't find anything
in your post to disagree with. Well, only that I don't think
you even need to own (or have owned) a burm to know how silly that map is!

I guess that (ie, "long term average temperature" explains the stupid map.

I just had an idea. I wonder if any of the "scientists" behind that map would be willing to bet me that a burm would survive here in North Carolina. I'd be willing to bet my entire net worth and even pay for the microchip implant. You think any of them would take me up on it?

Thaks,
Ed

>>Ed I couldn't make it no further than this sentence of stupidity
>>
>>Keep in mind also that we matched climate (long term average precipitation and long term average temperature) throughout the year.
>>
>>
>>Long term average temperature haha. Yesterday weather in N.O. was 70 but clearly in the mid 40's with lots of wind at night so I guess if you take the "average long term temperature" then they will make it here
>>
>>tell that retard who wrote that article and anyone else commenting on this subject, that unless you keep snakes (colubrids don't count sorry people) or have kept one of the big 5 then to leave your comment out of it cuz you don't know crapola
>>
>>B.W. Smith does have the Phantom Boa though and it is very pretty
>>
>>Tom Crutchfield mentioned yesterday in his post that mentioned
>>If you look at a map that is 50-60 miles from the nearest road......... If they are truely 50-60 miles from the nearest road then why are people acting crazy in histeria like when you open your front door and walk to the mailbox you need someone to wathc cuz you may get eaten, if you choose to go out alone in the Everglades then hopefully you are aware of what could happen regardless of what is out there and he goes on to mention that the hurricanes and zoos have something to do with the problem also along with releases and I also strongly agree with Tom that- who travels 60 miles to release a snake come on???????? If you get stopped 40 miles in and they find out you have a burm in a box I mean come on.
>>
>>Unfortunately Ed they will keep throwing fictional info to the best of their ability (truely sad that these people went to school and got a piece of paper that is about as useless as 12 inches of Charmin) if they use it right which I don't think they are capable of
>>
>>One more quote from that
>> we have very little accurate information on the range of P. molurus in Pakistan or west central China
>>
>>If they don't know over there then how would they know over here. More quesstimates made by retards.
>>
>>They are worried about burms that have been recovered either dead or alive in the Everglades while we have over 300 murders a year in dozens of cities. We give away billions is welfare to mothers that quite simply, can't keep their legs..........and now I am supporting their 4 children from 4 different fathers off of my taxes so I am glad that they are pissing away money where "they see fit". That's about all I got so read it before they yank it
>>Bob

Everyone knows the feral Burm population will go underground and take refuge in the cities' sewer systems just like alligators and crocodiles have done for years.
Didn't you see that "King of the Hill" episode.
Whats wrong with you?
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Yes, this is exactly what the Texas Parks and Wildlife Commissioners did when they banned commerce in Texas native turtles, with the exception of those going to China for the meat market, of course.
It was expedient and a political feel good to pick on those least capable of defending themselves and vilify them in the name of conservation.
They had all the college professors lined up quoting a bunch of irrelevant junk science, statistics, and data totally out of context, to make their point. Please don't compare Texas to Bangladesh. Give me a break. Stop insulting my intelligence. Just because it takes a Painted Turtle 8 years to mature in Montana, doesn't mean it takes a Painted Turtle 8 years to mature in Texas. Here the growing season is 3 times as long.
Don't tell me the Diamond Backed Terrapin Market in North Carolina collapsed due to over harvesting. It was a USF&W project that collapsed due to lack of economic feasibility; that and The Great Depression. Stop peeing on my leg and telling me it's raining.
Of course those academicians will agree. They are State employees, aren't they?. They better fall in line, if they know what's good for them. After all, they do want their grant money, to pursue their wildlife interests, don't they. Of course, the intelligentsia should be allowed. Of course the layman shouldn't. Laymen are just not qualified. They don't have the proper motives. No good could become of it if just anyone could keep a turtle.
So, who are these unselfish altruistic benefactors of Non-game Wildlife in Texas -- these Commissioners? Well lets see: 1) extremely wealthy, 2) Republican political appointees, 3) Men with vast real estate holdings and land interests throughout the state. Land that that has been significantly altered and modified to the economic benefit of those same land owners.
Their interest in wildlife, and I use that term wildlife loosely, is pretty much restricted to Game Animals. Managing the Non-game Animals is nothing but a distraction to their interests and should therefore be banned and restricted from individuals whenever possible. It is simply a waste of time for their Game Wardens. Game Wardens should be looking after their interests -- Game, not turtles.
Here are a few of these captains of industry, The Texas Parks and Wildlife Department Commissioners: 1) Honorable Joseph B.C. Fitzsimons, Chairman, San Antonio Lawyer, represents, land, cattle, game interests. 2) Honorable Mark E. Bivins, land and cattle operations. 3) Honorable J. Robert Brown, regional beer distributor. 4) Honorable T. Dan Friedkin, World's fourth largest private Toyota distributor. 5) Honorable Peter M. Holt, largest Catapillar dealership in the United States. 6) Honorable Philip Montgomery, shopping center owner, operator, developer. 7) Honorable John D. Parker, home builder, developer. That's a few. You can look them up for yourself at http://tpwd.state.tx.us/business/about/commission/commissioners/
These men make a living both directly and indirectly by modifying, fracturing, and destroying wild habitat. They maintain and grow their wealth almost exclusively by manners and with methods directly in opposition to Wild Animal Conservation. Shouldn't these men recuse themselves for a conflict of interest, rather than being the ones making these decisions? Sounds like a classic case of the Fox guarding the Hen house to me.
jsc

-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Dr. Gordon Rodda. says:

"We recognize that there are many factors that influence the distribution of a species, and if we had the data, we would consider them all. In the absence of the relevant data, one makes due with what is available, keeping in mind its limitations (generally not reported in the media). "

Absence of relevant data? After decades many that passed totally un regulated hundreds of thousands of pythons and boas placed in the US pet trade, available from coast to coast. To date there's only one documented relatively small population of feral animals. And their currently being hunted down. I'd call that relevant. Statistical information as it directly relates to the United States as opposed to far fetched hypotheses .

"I hope you will see that a rational process was used to derive the climate envelope that was then mapped onto the US. " Dr. Rodda

Climate envelope by that he is referring to the perceived range that could be inhabited.

Rational ? So in this guys opinion a scenario centered around speculation based on making due in the absents of relevant data was the rational decision . This in opposition to the use of confirmed information that has already been applied to the real life situation .

We're not guessing about what would happen if people all over the United States were keeping and breeding pythons and occasional escapes occur. We know . It's been going on in the real world for decades. The answer is for 99% of the country nothing happens. That's your rational answer based real life performance.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com