Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm going to post a pic for someone else and I need some information that will help us decide what snake we're dealing with...

This is a long term captive in another country and it matters in a breeding project to have it properly labeled. The owner thought it might be an albino. I don't have any experience with mutations of the various ratsnakes, Pantherophis (Elaphe) obsoletus, so I'm not sure about this one. Can anyone give us some help on this one??

Thanks all you ratsnake experts...

Terry
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Ratsnake Foundation

IMHO, Terry,
Amelanistic Black Rat, from a BR that would be almost all black in the non-morph form.
I don't think it's Leucistic, only because I've never seen a "shadow pattern" of very faint blotches in a "leucy".
(Of course, I've never seen a good clear view of PA White-sided Snow Snake either.)

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Regards, Bill McGighan

>>IMHO, Terry,
>>Amelanistic Black Rat, from a BR that would be almost all black in the non-morph form.
>>I don't think it's Leucistic, only because I've never seen a "shadow pattern" of very faint blotches in a "leucy".
>>(Of course, I've never seen a good clear view of PA White-sided Snow Snake either.)
>>
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>>Regards, Bill McGighan

..a PA White-sided Snow Snake? What's that? Hahaha!

Thanks for responding, Bill. So amels can be white colored then? That helps clear up some confusion. My friend did say he bought it as an amel 20 yrs ago. So, I don't think it could be white-sided (that's fairly recent I think.)

All the amel black rats I've seen have had some color to them, so I was perplexed on this guy, but I did wonder about the slight pattern showing through. There's no such thing as a snow black rat is there?

I'm beginning to think you're both right, that it's an amel black rat. That would be good 'cus the guy wants to buy some all black, black rats to add to his collection. Of course, I don't keep black rats, so I'd be interested in locating anyone who did. Then I'd pass along that info.

Thanks again, Bill. Here's hoping for a great breeding season, eh?

Terry

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Ratsnake Foundation

I am inclined to agree with the other fellows. It looks like an albino. I have solid blacks, albinos, white-sided (both albinos and black), yellows, Everglades, and one, special, white albino. He's NOT a leucistic, but he has no pattern either. Here's a picture of him.

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Gregg
The Corn Snake Pit

Wow! Handsome looking snake GRich!

>>I am inclined to agree with the other fellows. It looks like an albino. I have solid blacks, albinos, white-sided (both albinos and black), yellows, Everglades, and one, special, white albino. He's NOT a leucistic, but he has no pattern either. Here's a picture of him.
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>>Gregg
>>The Corn Snake Pit

Thanks, Greg. The pic is of a white albino black rat then, correct? I appreciate the help.

Someone told me if the eye is pink it's albino, if it's dark then it's a lucy. Do you agree?

I'll take a look at your site in a little bit, but sounds like you have everything we're looking for. Talk more later...

Terry

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Ratsnake Foundation

Yes, pink eye=albino, black eye=leucy. Therefore, I'd say you have an albino. An albino black rat would probably look like a snow since there is little other color.
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"Not so tough when you're hit from behind with a golf club are ya?"

Thanks for the info. I've learned a lot about these guys today...

Terry

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Ratsnake Foundation

I agree, and I disagree. Let's see, how can I say this?

Leucistism is the total lack of pigment in the skin--close to what we know as albinism in mammals. You can have leucistics with pink eyes, which make them leucistics with albinism homozygous. On the other hand, you can have albinos which become so light that they are, for all practical purposes, solid white, but they are not leucistic. Ecdysis is the time when you can see the difference. My solid white albino will get a very faint, pale, rosy-pink color about him prior to shedding. My leucistics do not.

Scale-wise, my leucistics will have an occasional scale which seems to stand out defiantly against definition. That is to say, they will have one, or two scales with some color, either solid black or solid pinkish-red. My solid white albino does not have any of these rouge scales. He does, however, seem to be acquiring a very slight, over-all pink glow about him as he grows older. I think this is due to some barely perceptible amel-coloring coming in at the posterior, or trailing edge, of each of his scales, although, when you look at him, he looks white. I guess I notice the pinkishness because I see him so much.
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Gregg
The Corn Snake Pit

Thanks Greg. A bit more than I'm used to with all the mutations, but I think I'm gettin' it.

TC

>>I agree, and I disagree. Let's see, how can I say this?
>>
>>Leucistism is the total lack of pigment in the skin--close to what we know as albinism in mammals. You can have leucistics with pink eyes, which make them leucistics with albinism homozygous. On the other hand, you can have albinos which become so light that they are, for all practical purposes, solid white, but they are not leucistic. Ecdysis is the time when you can see the difference. My solid white albino will get a very faint, pale, rosy-pink color about him prior to shedding. My leucistics do not.
>>
>>Scale-wise, my leucistics will have an occasional scale which seems to stand out defiantly against definition. That is to say, they will have one, or two scales with some color, either solid black or solid pinkish-red. My solid white albino does not have any of these rouge scales. He does, however, seem to be acquiring a very slight, over-all pink glow about him as he grows older. I think this is due to some barely perceptible amel-coloring coming in at the posterior, or trailing edge, of each of his scales, although, when you look at him, he looks white. I guess I notice the pinkishness because I see him so much.
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>>Gregg
>>The Corn Snake Pit

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Ratsnake Foundation

We have a pair of these snakes. We breed leucistic black rats and produce red eyed(albino) leucistics from time to time. We have a holdback pair now.

The original snake in question is not a leucistic IMHO.

I think it's some for of washed out albino and reminds me of some 'bubblegum' ratsnakes I've had in the past.
website

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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

No way a leucistic(or pink-eyed), and yes, does resemble many pale colored "bubblegums". Also, many have been bred with extremely varied degrees of coloration, such as the very pale, almost undescernable patterned one(like the one in question, to extremely vivid orange/pink variations with bold patterns, to solid pinks/yellows. Also, they have been around for many years since Bill Love first produced them around 1989 or 90.

It is possible however that it can still be a very pale amel that did NOT have much in the way of other underlying pigment(s) to display after the absents of melanin. But most amels have a MUCH more visible blotch pattern.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug, are you saying you don't think it's an albino either?

Actually, that's why I thought it was leucistic at first. But the guy who has it told me he thought it was albino and that he'd had it for twenty years. And now he wants to produce albino black rats and thinks he needs pure black, black rats.

So, if he crosses his whitish snake with a black rat, he's going to get hets of whatever the mutation is. Assuming the whitish snake is a black rat, the hets would be for something whitish black rat, correct? All I have to do is point him to some all black, black rats. I'm not going to try to explain any more than we already have, LOL!

Cheers...TC

>>No way a leucistic(or pink-eyed), and yes, does resemble many pale colored "bubblegums". Also, many have been bred with extremely varied degrees of coloration, such as the very pale, almost undescernable patterned one(like the one in question, to extremely vivid orange/pink variations with bold patterns, to solid pinks/yellows. Also, they have been around for many years since Bill Love first produced them around 1989 or 90.
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>> It is possible however that it can still be a very pale amel that did NOT have much in the way of other underlying pigment(s) to display after the absents of melanin. But most amels have a MUCH more visible blotch pattern.
>>
>>
>> ~Doug
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>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

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Ratsnake Foundation

Doug, are you saying you don't think it's an albino either?

Actually, that's why I thought it was leucistic at first. But the guy who has it told me he thought it was albino and that he'd had it for twenty years. And now he wants to produce albino black rats and thinks he needs pure black, black rats.

So, if he crosses his whitish snake with a black rat, he's going to get hets of whatever the mutation is. Assuming the whitish snake is a black rat, the hets would be for something whitish black rat, correct? All I have to do is point him to some all black, black rats. I'm not going to try to explain any more than we already have, LOL!

> Well, if it has pink/red eyes(hard for me to tell) then it HAS to be an albino(amel). There is no way it could be a leucistic without having normal dark eyes. Only recently has the "pink-eyed" leucistic mutation been available. That being said, regardless of what was said earlier about the small possibility of it being of "bubblegum" lineage(albino yellow, albino Everglades Rat, and albino Black Rat, that seems extremely doubtful. I think it is simply an EXTREMELY pale "old-school" albino, that has an exceptionallly subdued amount of the usual "underlying" pigmentation as seen in most amel Black Rats.
That is probably the bottom line here on what that animal is. One thing is for SURE!!!,......that is a very nice example!

As said before, if it has pinkish/red eyes, then IT IS an albino, and not a leucistic,....especially with the small hint of pattern that it displays.

Some test breeding to an amel will prove this out. And like you mentioned, breeding the animal to a normal Black Rat will produce ALL HETS for it's unique trait.

I like that snake a lot!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks, Doug. I'll get back to the guy and discuss what I've learned. Then I'll give him some contacts for black rats. I believe someone will be at Daytona this year to pick up snakes to take back to his country.

Cheers for all the cool info..great strand...

Terry

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Ratsnake Foundation

If I needed an all black Black Rat Snake (and I didn't want to make a collecting trip), I'd contact Dwight Good.
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Regards, Bill McGighan

>>If I needed an all black Black Rat Snake (and I didn't want to make a collecting trip), I'd contact Dwight Good.
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>>Regards, Bill McGighan

Thanks, Bill, for this and all the great info you posted. And sorry about calling you Doug yesterday. Us old guys have to always be editing, haha! I'll try to get in touch with Dwight too, but he doesn't have a webpage that I know of.

Cheers...Terry

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Ratsnake Foundation

You need to apologize to Doug, not me, Fred.
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Dwight will show up!!!!!! He's addicted to RSs too.
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One great thing about my wife and I getting old together:
I keep telling the same stories over and over.
She keeps forgetting I told here, so they are new again.

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Regards, Bill McGighan

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Terry asked "a PA White-sided Snow Snake? What's that? Hahaha!
"
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I'm sorry I mentioned this... I miss spoke to hide its real common name, the White-Backed Snow Snake.
It should be kept secret from the general public because it could cause a panic.
Fortunate this animal, the most dangerous in North America, is rare.
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I had the misfortune of spending some time, years ago, trying to get a picture of these animals and still be here to tell about it. One February I hunted all over northern Pennsylvania, chasing down any lead I could get on a Snow Snake in any story, by hunter or farmer.
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It was in a blizzard that I caught a glimpse of a specimen but couldn't get a picture. To this day the memory haunts me in dreams.
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The deadly White-Backed Snow Snake, Freezurassoffus l. leuconotus, is found in isolated, dwindling (thank, God) colonies from northern Pennsylvania to Michigan. It is much more deadly than any elapine snake, but not from venom.
They apparently travel in pairs and when you are walking through the woods, the female will trip you and the male will pound snow up your butt!
Be carefull in the UP of Mich.

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Regards, Bill McGighan

snowin in sascachawan don't ya know!

I see!

Actually, I've been thinking recently (not that I don't most of the time), that with this global warming and all, the snakes might be a little more active in wintertime. As you can see (in the photo) there's a swamp in the background, and the swamp never freezes. The snakes go there in the wintertime to brumate while the rest of their domain is freezing and being covered with ice and snow. Now when I go down there to do trail maintenance and trim the brush, so to speak, I've been thinking about those snakes in the swamp being a little more active than usual. I was wondering if any of them might venture out for a quick little look about when it's nice and sunny. ASAMOF, I thought I heard a frog croaking in the swamp just this past weekend, but I suppose it could have been a branch creaking.

I'll be much more on the lookout now for those evil, white-backed snow snakes, Doug. Thanks for reminding me about them, because I'm sure they're hiding out in the swamp someplace. Do you think they're like the hares, that are white in winter, but change back to their brown colors in the rest of the year, so when they come out in the open they're camouflaged? Oh, yea, I'm gettin' this now...hahaha!

TC

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Ratsnake Foundation

Hey Terry,
Just some more info on these white morphs.
The first pic is an Amel Maryland Black Rat from the Baltimore Zoo. I took the picture in 1981.
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This second is the only Leucy I keep (a Texan) and it is homozygous for leucism and homozygous for amelanism (pink eyes).
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Hope you have a good breeding year...
When is the big move?
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Regards, Bill McGighan

Now ya' see, that's what I was thinkin' at first. The amel doesn't look white. I'm just not sure how you get a white amelanistic black rat? But, from this strand it looks like it's possible.

Those snakes are awesome, btw, especially the leucistic amel. I've never really gone in for that type of morph before, but this one is very attractive to me for some reason.

Well, Doug, I won't be breeding much this year. As you know, I'll be moving to AZ soon to our new retirement home. The housing market is a mess though and we still have to sell our MI home. I will have to juggle at least one clutch, however, 'cus I already have a gravid bimaculata. I expect to be in our new home in southeastern AZ by this summer for the monsoon season and to be starting my Arizona Collection (green rats, kings, you know...haha!)

Hope to see ya out there someday...

Terry

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Ratsnake Foundation