Reptile & Amphibian Forums

One other potentially huge issues I think that was also overlooked is "human developmental barriers". "Human developmental barriers" is a term I just made up. There may be a scientifically recognized term for this. The United States of America is not the same as underdeveloped South East Asia.

Certainly some Pythons have become established in Florida, and on rare occasions have been seen in areas that are developed. However, these instances must be in locations that are in very close proximity to areas that are, in effect, wilderness and prime habitat. Prime habitat, that is undeveloped wilderness, even if the climate was conducive to it, is a rare thing in most of the Southern areas this fellow's illogical map details. The fact that the vast majority of these areas are developed, makes them rotten places to live. This is especially true if you happen to need to be at least 10' long in order to procreate. In the United States, southern areas or otherwise, the vast majority of lands are farmed or ranched. These areas have farmers coming through with $200,000 tractors pulling a 30' wide disc chopping anything in it's path to bits. They have massive combines chomping and harvesting everything in their path. leaving in their wake shreds of waste. These facts, if they don't make it impossible for Burmese Pythons to move North, would certainly dramatically slow the progress of such.

These farming fact is in stark contrast to places in Asia where most of the land is worked by hand. It is an easy thing to slide away if a farmer is hacking away near by with a hoe. It is much more difficult to take off if a John Deere is bearing down on you with those 10,000 pound liquid filled wheels.

There are already many species that are geographically isolated due man's development of the land. This is already a fact. In fact some species live in only very small pockets throughout the United States and no longer have continuous ranges due to the development of the land by mankind. To ignore this and assume that poorly analyzed climatic data be the only factor, in the possibility of the expansion of a species, is patently not only inaccurate but fundamentally dishonest. I imagine that if this range map was completed with facts in mind, it would have been far more limiting and thus much less memorable than the map that was developed is. This map was developed assuming that the climatic averages, poorly analyzed, were all that was necessary for a very large animal to expand it's range. Of course there are many other factors such as food supply, predation of neonates, temperature extremes, roadways and many other ignored facts that all have a detrimental impact upon existing species let alone the establishment of a new species, especially of a large species like the Burmese Python.

All of this is really a moot point because the climate alone would not allow the feared Burmese Python to move North anyhow.
-----
Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

"All of this is really a moot point because the climate alone would not allow the feared Burmese Python to move North anyhow."

>>My thoughts exactly. There may be some pockets outside FLA within the range map that could potentially support Burmese pythons if enough were released all at the same time, in the right time of year and at the right place. Release a premature study with doomsday connotations and you are bound to get premature counter reactions. What else would the authors have expected?

At the very least the authors should have stated clearly in a manner the public could easily understand(since it was a public release) that climate alone does not means dispersal is immenent, or even that survival of released pythons in all those areas is likely.

The everglades are not a pristine habitat they have been altered by sugar cane farming and in fact there is an effort under way to restore them. Second the invasive species here almost never invade pristine habitat unless it is an island of habitat among urban sprawl that has been over taken by invasive species. Case in point brown anoles and cuban treefrogs which are the most numerous of the invasives here in central fl. If you are in an urban area where the native treefrog and green anole populations are under stress due to alteration of their habitat you will fiind populations of the former move in more tto fill a void that has been created than to over take a species that already exists there. Florida is not some far off island where species develop minus predatory pressures Green anoles and native tree frogs evolved with these pressures and are more adept to handle them than there invasive counterparts. It's when you remove their breeding areas hiding places and replace the native flora with exotic flora that doesn't support the same type of insect populations that things go awry. If you look at the ranges of introduced exotics in fl. almost all of there ranges correspond with urban areas and with the locations of various reptile importers. the burmese pop is a bit of an exception to this and I have other theories as to it's origin. Further more as aaron said climate will be a barrier to the expansion assuming it even is a breeding population at all. Something else I have my doubts about. Just because you find a gravid female(s) does not neccessarily mean they are breeding in the wild and until somebody raises burms in an outdoor cage with no temperature protection for several years and they successfully live and reproduce. There will not be one iota of evidence to back up the scientific THEORIES. There will only be speculation but then science has relied on speculation over facts for quite some time now. Creating fear over what might happen apparrently generates more grant money and book deals than boring facts do.

"There will not be one iota of evidence to back up the scientific THEORIES."

Very true. Mostly because the whole burm thing is a hypothesis and not a theory. I don't mean to be nit picky, but there's a big difference in science between the two. Let's hope the whole burm thing is a hypothesis we can show to be insignificant. (I think, however, that the damage is already done, in terms of public relations.)

I agree with alot of your point but the map is mostly acurate due to the fact that it is highlighting areas they can "potential" establish populations in, they are highlighting areas were the climate is favorable, granted I agree they are not going to get established in downtown Dallas tx, however the little pockets you speak of they can decimate what little native wildlife is left in a matter of no time and unlike blackbear or many of the other species that are isolated to these tiny pockets in the south, berms and retics can move about from one pocket to another more freely

a large burm traveling through a housing development at night is going to be a lot less noticeable then a blackbear, burm hides up under someones front porch during the day and next night continues his search for the next wildlife pocket you speak of

how many times have we all heard about cat and dogs missing from certains areas then next you know they pull a giant burm out of someons garages that has obviously been their for extended period of time, ive heard of a couple cases like that, they ahad one all over that cop show. my point is larger snakes have an easier time taking up residents with us in our populated areas then much of our native wildlife
-----
One day I'll dance on your grave
Even if you're buried at sea
Till then, till when I exact my revenge
I'll tell them, "You're dead to me"
Megadeth

So you believe that Burmese pythons can establish populations in Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, desert areas of the southwest, etc.????

Also, do you have evidence that native wildlife would be "decimated?"

Regarding your question, "how many times have we all heard about cat and dogs missing from certains areas then next you know they pull a giant burm out of someons garages...", well, I've *never* heard of that here in North Carolina where I live. Even *you* said you've only heard of "a couple cases"! How does "a couple
cases" translate into a huge, national problem????

Thanks,
Ed

>>I agree with alot of your point but the map is mostly acurate due to the fact that it is highlighting areas they can "potential" establish populations in, they are highlighting areas were the climate is favorable, granted I agree they are not going to get established in downtown Dallas tx, however the little pockets you speak of they can decimate what little native wildlife is left in a matter of no time and unlike blackbear or many of the other species that are isolated to these tiny pockets in the south, berms and retics can move about from one pocket to another more freely
>>
>>a large burm traveling through a housing development at night is going to be a lot less noticeable then a blackbear, burm hides up under someones front porch during the day and next night continues his search for the next wildlife pocket you speak of
>>
>>how many times have we all heard about cat and dogs missing from certains areas then next you know they pull a giant burm out of someons garages that has obviously been their for extended period of time, ive heard of a couple cases like that, they ahad one all over that cop show. my point is larger snakes have an easier time taking up residents with us in our populated areas then much of our native wildlife
>>-----
>>One day I'll dance on your grave
>>Even if you're buried at sea
>>Till then, till when I exact my revenge
>>I'll tell them, "You're dead to me"
>>Megadeth

">>So you believe that Burmese pythons can establish populations in Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, desert areas of the southwest, etc.????"

read the captions at the bottom, your talking about their 100yr proposed global warming map not the current one
-----
One day I'll dance on your grave
Even if you're buried at sea
Till then, till when I exact my revenge
I'll tell them, "You're dead to me"
Megadeth

I read the captions under the maps. The one on the left says "Areas of the continental United States with climate matching that of the pythons' native range in Asia. USGS image.", and it
includes parts of NC, VA and MD.

The one on the right says "Projected climate in the continental United States in the year 2100, based on global warming models, that matches climate in the pythons' native range in Asia. USGS image."

Why don't you take another look?

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1875&from=rss_home

Also, feel free to address my other questions. You made the claim that local wildlife would be "decimated". Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?

Thanks,
Ed

>>">>So you believe that Burmese pythons can establish populations in Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, desert areas of the southwest, etc.????"
>>
>>read the captions at the bottom, your talking about their 100yr proposed global warming map not the current one
>>-----
>>One day I'll dance on your grave
>>Even if you're buried at sea
>>Till then, till when I exact my revenge
>>I'll tell them, "You're dead to me"
>>Megadeth

">>I read the captions under the maps. The one on the left says "Areas of the continental United States with climate matching that of the pythons' native range in Asia. USGS image.", and it
>>includes parts of NC, VA and MD."

ya whats so hard for you to understand, that is climate that matches its home range

">>Also, feel free to address my other questions. You made the claim that local wildlife would be "decimated". Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?"

well lets see it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that a burm introduced to a small pocket of wildlife is not going to starve its self to death, in a small area were there a limited hides from predators the wildlife doesnt stand much of a chance becasue just like in captivity a python will eat and and and some more when given the chance, yes a large non native snake introduced tyo a small pocket of wildlife would decimate it, its called common sense
-----
One day I'll dance on your grave
Even if you're buried at sea
Till then, till when I exact my revenge
I'll tell them, "You're dead to me"
Megadeth

>>">>I read the captions under the maps. The one on the left says "Areas of the continental United States with climate matching that of the pythons' native range in Asia. USGS image.", and it
>>>>includes parts of NC, VA and MD."
>>
>>
>>ya whats so hard for you to understand, that is climate that matches its home range
>>

Ok, let's put up or shut up. I will bet you $25000 that a Burmese python would not live for 1 year her in North Carolina.
How about it?

>>
>>
>>
>>
>>">>Also, feel free to address my other questions. You made the claim that local wildlife would be "decimated". Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?"
>>
>>well lets see it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out that a burm introduced to a small pocket of wildlife is not going to starve its self to death, in a small area were there a limited hides from predators the wildlife doesnt stand much of a chance becasue just like in captivity a python will eat and and and some more when given the chance, yes a large non native snake introduced tyo a small pocket of wildlife would decimate it, its called common sense
>>-----

Complete nonsense. Rats and feral cats are all over the place.
You have no evidence, you're just making stuff up.

a 25k bet, humm the locgic of a neanderthal

">>Complete nonsense. Rats and feral cats are all over the place.
>>You have no evidence, you're just making stuff up.
"

you just proved my point better then I could have LMAO, lets see here non natural predator, that would be like pytons released within the US or oh...............lets see.............................. a feral cat, in PA aside from ones that are raised and released for hunting pheasnts are almost non existant anymore............why you ask?? feral cats a non natural predator, something they have no defense to, becasue a natural defense is something that evolves over thousands of yrs along with a species, thats why non natrual predators are devastating

so yes all these non native reptiles being set lose on the south are devastating to their eco systems, you obviously cant comprehend that, so im not going to waste anymore time, take care
-----
One day I'll dance on your grave
Even if you're buried at sea
Till then, till when I exact my revenge
I'll tell them, "You're dead to me"
Megadeth

While it may be true giant snakes such as Burmese and Retics follow human habitation in Third World countries, it is in no way possible here in the U.S.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

tell that to the guys who catch them in populated areas in FL

>>While it may be true giant snakes such as Burmese and Retics follow human habitation in Third World countries, it is in no way possible here in the U.S.
>>jsc
>>-----
>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer
-----
One day I'll dance on your grave
Even if you're buried at sea
Till then, till when I exact my revenge
I'll tell them, "You're dead to me"
Megadeth

NEWS BUSTERS (Washington, DC) 24 February 08 Global Warming Will Cause Giant Snakes to Take Over America (Noel Sheppard is an economist, business owner, and Associate Editor of NewsBusters. NewsBusters, a project of the Media Research Center (MRC), the leader in documenting, exposing and neutralizing liberal media bias.)
NewsBusters has on numerous occasions reported how media are trying to frighten Americans into radically altering their lives or else suffer irreparable harm at the hands of the liberal bogeyman global warming.
At times in the past couple of years, the scare tactics have been akin to a 1950s horror movie, including somewhat hysterically a film being released wherein oil workers in Alaska were actually killed by Mother Nature supposedly rising up to defend herself from climate change.
On Wednesday, USA Today added giant snakes to the equation, using the frightening imagery of Burmese pythons -- which can grow in size to 20 feet and 250 pounds -- roaming America if citizens don't immediately change their wicked carbon dioxide emitting ways:
As climate change warms the nation, giant Burmese pythons could colonize one-third of the USA, from San Francisco across the Southwest, Texas and the South and up north along the Virginia coast, according to U.S. Geological Survey maps released Wednesday.
[...]
Two federal agencies - the USGS and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service - are investigating the range of nine invasive snakes in Florida, concerned about the danger they now pose to endangered species. The agencies are collecting data to aid in the control of these populations.
They examined Burmese pythons first and, based on where they live in Asia, estimated where they might live here. One map shows where the pythons could live today, an area that expands when scientists use global warming models for 2100.
"We were surprised by the map. It was bigger than we thought it was going to be," says Gordon Rodda, zoologist and lead project researcher. "They are moving northward, there's no question."
Of course, late in the article we find that the problem isn't actually global warming. It's that people are buying these snakes as pets, and then abandoning them:
If federal officials had to worry only about Florida, it would be "decades" before the pythons move into other states, Rodda says. But people keep dumping pythons they don't want into the wild. "We just learned about some that had been released in Arkansas," he says.
Hmmm. So, maybe officials ought to do more to prevent these snakes from being brought into the country, and stop using them as a political tool to advance climate alarmism:
In Florida, they eat bobcats, deer, alligators, raccoons, cats, rats, rabbits, muskrats, possum, mice, ducks, egrets, herons and song birds. They grab with their mouth to anchor the prey, then coil around the animal and crush it to death before eating it whole.
If you see one, don't attempt to engage it. Leave the area, note the location and notify the authorities.
Anyone question why so many people feel those that advance the global warming myth should be called climate alarmists?
Somewhat comically, within hours of this article being published, as Rush Limbaugh discussed the New York Times hit piece on John McCain, he referred to people in the drive-by media as snakes.
As such, Americans indeed should be very afraid, not of pythons roaming the planet, but of irresponsible journalists that know absolutely nothing about science advancing this myth by using such disgraceful scare tactis.
Global Warming Will Cause Giant Snakes to Take Over America

The first lines of that were funny....Actually so is the fact that they think they can accurately predict about 5 seperate factors, along with the pythons migration, the publics reaction, any attempts to get rid of them, and a few others that dont need to be said, #98 YEARS# into the future. It would be difficult to predict all those figures accurately 10-25 years ahead. Besides, all they did was take a chart that showed the temperatures predicted by the global warming fanatics 98 years from now, did a quick google search on what temps Burmese Pythons need, and put the two together. That barely qualifies as "data" in my opinion. I find that about as credible as " 100 years from now, aliens will attack the earth, because WE SAID SO!!!" actually i find it a bit more credible than that, but you get my point.
-----
-Jacob

Why do people say .02 cents??? So, what, your opinion is only worth a 50th of a cent?