Reptile & Amphibian Forums

one thing people seem to forget in these matters is the gov is a buisness just like any other that survives on revenues. It needs taxes to survive and do its thing on one hand you have us, and how many people within the industry honestly pay their taxes? not very many. then on the other hand you have PETA, HSUS and other well funded groups who put large amounts of money into campaigns etc

Who do you think they will listen to, the group they get next to nothing from, they know we are here, they also know this industry is run on cash, when they get next to nothing and get no reason to support us and our snakes that everyone is scared of to begin with why should they support us on any level? that simply one of the unlying reasons

there never been a move made on the national level like this before and just like the states now that it has started it wont stop, plan your exit stratigies because the days of the reptile industry are numbered
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One day I'll dance on your grave
Even if you're buried at sea
Till then, till when I exact my revenge
I'll tell them, "You're dead to me"
Megadeth

Groups such as Peta and the HSUS have more to fear from the Federal government then the snakes do. These organizations have direct ties to other radical groups such as the ALF( Animal Liberation Front ) and SHAC (Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty). The FBI has classified these groups as Domestic terrorist organizations . All have a long and serious list of wrong doings. There are many politicians who are aware of this and do not knowingly support them but...............

Ingrid Newkirk's Peta's co fonder has said has said of PETA's campaign strategy: "How do we pick our battles? By trying to touch the public imagination, the public heart".

In Newkirk's own words -- "complete press sluts." Endlessly seeking media exposure, PETA sends out dozens of press releases every week.

How they do all their damage is at the street level by targeting the uninformed and they do it while wearing a variety of disguises. Same group different names. They make people think their supporting one thing but in fact their aiding Peta .

Anti ownership factions stir things up by relentlessly getting their view out to the public. They approach local politicians and authorities to gain their support. Before you know it the states involved and then one day a folder is sitting on a Federal officers desk containing complaint letters not from some crazy animal rights group but from State representative`s , commissioners and biologist. The Feds can't just blow it off.

Florida has long been the hub of the exotic animal trade and also a major target of anti ownership groups. This latest assault is the direct result of their work. Back in the late 70`s the industry was faced with a similar situation. Louie Porrus spear headed an incredible defense rally even going as far as to lobby the White House for support. We proved our point by a landslide margin. The major difference between then and now is that anti ownership groups have strengthen their position considerably. Another important factor is that these groups now have a very strong platform to build their case off of. The situation in the Glades is a dream come true for the people that want to stop us. Talk about a chance to touch the public's imagination, the public's heart.

I don't believe the Federal Fish and Wildlife is out to get us by any means. If they were it would already be over. I feel if we have enough support we can make a very good case on our behalf and hopefully it will get reviewed objectively. I do not expect to come out of this unscathed but I'm not planing any exit strategies by a long shot.

Ernie Eison
Westwoodreptiles.com

I should have clarified a little better but to me PETA hsus and the anti owner groups you speak of are all one in the same(to me) their what I call humaniacs the ones who believe we need saved from ourselves, to me the neighbor next door that makes the effort to complain and start the process to remove someones rights on the township level is no better then hsus and PETA at the state or feb level

also Im well aware of the those groups being labaled as terrorists however it still hasnt stopped politicians from excepting campaign money nor has the gov revoked their non profit statis yet like they should have, there was a big effort a few years back to have PETAS revoked because of ALF and the arsons in CA(i think thats were it was), so my point is that no one within the Gov takes them as a serious threat

one thing many dont realize about Peta and the humaniacs on top of what you mentioned is the letter righting campaigns theyll go into retirement villages and what not with old people who have nothing better to do and convince them there is an epidemic on their door step and they need to stop it, these little old ladies, a little niave in their old age with nothing better to do, that want to feel important go off the deep end for them, then next thing you know tyhey elderly are funding them believing they are actually doing good, it goes a little more in depth then that but you can also rest assured that the humaniacs(peta hsus whatever) are better organized and funded and whether its directly from them or through other channels our policians who we look to, to preserve our rights see alot more funds from them then us

I agree I dont actually think this is the complete end but, just like weve seen on the state levels once they start they dont stop, this is the first real major atempt on the fed level(ya granted they tried that blanket ban a couple years ago but it was totally rediculous and illogical) with this the door on the fed level is now open and its not all going to happen in one fair swoup but little by little its going to widdled away until there isnt enough left to call an industry

ive been around since the 80's ive seen this thing come full swing and its near the end, right now I make my living within the industry but im back in school so I can finish my degree becasue I dont want to be one of the ones left fitting over the tables scrapes when it all comes down

its a shame but it wont change it will only get worse the grass roots efforts that are being made now are great but IMO are a little to late, I dont care what any one says PIJAC is really all we have going for us and when ever year I sit at the PIJAC auction at tinley and watch what some of these guys throw in itd not wonder, year after year Ill watch bob clark a guy who is taking more out of this industry and makiing more money off it then most of us combined and all he throw in is one het albino male ball python, to me its really no wonder, greed, out of the people on the top within this industry IMO Jeffb puts in more then any of them, every year he throws in 2-3k worth, potter and ashley do alot but it always amazes me becasue aside from a couple people the oens who always put in the most are the ones who have the least, year after year I watch guys who fianacially are broke who barely can afford the gas to get to the show put in more then the so called "big names", IMO that greed is alot of why things are slowly coming to an end
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One day I'll dance on your grave
Even if you're buried at sea
Till then, till when I exact my revenge
I'll tell them, "You're dead to me"
Megadeth

Ernie,
That was an EXCELLENT post!

Randal Berry

that was a great post sad but true
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

" this is the first real major atempt on the fed level(ya granted they tried that blanket ban a couple years ago but it was totally rediculous and illogical)" thecaimen

I can't say I really agree.This might be the scariest because of the current political climate and cicumstances but it's not the first major attack from my perspective.

The endangered species act in 1969 was pretty major. That was followed by the heavier revised version 3 or 4 years later. Then the cites treaty. All these were very damaging to the industry at the time. Some of the biggest names fell out. A proposal very similar to what we are seeing now was introduced a few years later. All the hoopla surrounding reptiles and salmonella that led to the 4" law. The Humane Society going to USDA and trying to end all African imports because of the tick scare. A few years back an attempt to ban all boiga species based on the Guam deal. When ever an opportunity to exploit a media situation arises the people that are out to harm us have jumped on it.

The Government does take these Radical anti animal rights groups seriously. Peta is once again being investigated by the IRS the FBI has opened investigations on them and their various associates . These activist groups spend enormous amounts of money on legal defense. They are very good at working the loop holes in the system. Only so much time and money can be spent targeting these groups . Due to thier size and the diversity building a solid case against them is far from easy.

As for the business it's current state and where I think it might be headed. That's a whole different topic.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

"Peta is once again being investigated by the IRS the FBI has opened investigations on them and their various associates ."

dude were all under investigation from big brother, PETA still has its non profit statis so the IRS isnt looking very hard
-----
One day I'll dance on your grave
Even if you're buried at sea
Till then, till when I exact my revenge
I'll tell them, "You're dead to me"
Megadeth

Suffice to say that everything comes down to money and I know that the IRS is well aware of the "cash" that exchanges hand at shows, online sales... and they want a part of it. My "accountant "friend" was amazed at the prices he saw on Kingsnake and at a local reptile store for ball python morphs. When he saw a spider ball priced at 5K a few years ago he asked if that was "real". I told him that they probably never get the full price. He said that even half of that and the volume that sells online is enough to catch the attention of any auditor. Regulation sucks but the greed of the herp industry will eventually lead to stronger regulation via required permits for interstate sales, maybe even intrastate sales.

I have been in herpeticulture for about 40 years and have lately enjoyed the breeding aspect. When I started breeding I was told by many up and coming as well as known breeders that you need to do it for the passion and not the money or you will never survive. I have sold herps I breed for what is usually considered close to wholesale to other hobbyists so that they can enjoy the hobby. Many times I have been told that my prices are too low and and not fair to businesses... That's greed rearing it's ugly head.

I have seen hundreds of "herpers" try to get into the breeding game only to give it up when things got a bit rocky. When all is said and done only the truely passionate will remain.

See you there!!!

TBTEWTBTITBTEWB

Could I make some suggestions on how to respond to the USFWS Notice of Inquiry? I've worked for various Fed agencies and understand a bit about how to deal with actions like this, what they can and can't use to make the decision.

First, remind yourselves just what this action is...a request for specific information. Put your energy into this, not general ranting. Don't drop to the level of PETA and the like. The ban is not being proposed right now...they are asking whether a ban might be necessary based on numbers and costs. The questions are listed in the notice. Anything else you send can't or won't be used, so spend your time until April 30 carefully. Believe me, I've spent days pawing through public comments on various rulemakings and know what isn't going to be useful to the decision maker. Give them a general opinion and the response will be "OK, well, thanks for commenting...but nothing you said gives me any more to work with".

They are looking for specific things upon which to base any proposed ban. We can stop this by providing them overwhelming information that a non-specific sweeping ban on constrictors just isn't warranted. Try to get answers to the listed questions in your states...talk to breeders, dealers, pet shops, etc. about what they produce, sell, etc. Support your information. Are there feral constrictors in your area? No? Yes? Are native species being decimated by feral snakes? Remind them that the impacts from invasive weeds (also classed as injurious species), feral cats and rats (no one proposed banning the interstate movement of housecats and they kill several million birds every year all over the US, including endangered ones), habitat loss are far more important to endangered species recovery than non-existent exotic constrictors. The recovey plans for every listed species describes the documented threats...make the case that exotic constrictors are not the primary threat. If you don't know, find out! Overwhelm them with information! We want to make the point that a broad brush ban isn't necessary or even effective. Other injurious species are listed and managed on a species and regional level. Snakes could be also. If FL has a problem with a specific species for whatever reason suggest that they deal with it on a specific level. If VT or MT don't have a problem and never will, a ban on exotic constrictors there just isn't warranted. Remind them that native snakes also prey on those threatened species and are already adapted to their specific climates. We can defeat this with reality, with reason, with information, not screaming and wailing about philosophies.

Thanks for letting me comment.

A couple of additional comments. I used to work for USFWS and still know quite a few folks there. I can't recall meeting anyone at the operating field levels who felt keeping exotic snakes should be prohibited. Most of them got there because they are fascinated by wildlife and care about it. They keep pets including reptiles, they take trips to see exotics, they care about native species protection. Most of the are more concerned with established feral species...cats, dogs, pigs, goats, insects, weeds. Weeds and some of the others are dealt with on a species and location level as they should be. If USFWS is petitioned by ANYONE about issues under their authority such as importation of exotic species they MUST respond whether they agree personally or not. Don't blame the messenger. Get to the root of the problem and give them the tools to face it down. Maybe the 100 year climate change maps show that a feral snake species will spread, maybe not. It doesn't matter what you believe. Make the case that such a ban isn't warranted NOW to address a possibility a long way off. And, that regulation of species should be specific and adaptive...change it as needed.

I agree it's important to present out view from a scientific point. It's also important to have credible people from this area support it. I expect there to be a good amount of information turned in on our behalf in this area. Those who oppose us have already been successfully using this strategy . There will be plenty of "expert" impute to counter our views .

Ultimately this is an argument that comes down to pure speculation. It's a basic case of yes they can / no they can't. If this is how the final determination is made it will come down to how who's ever holding the pen see's one side as opposed to the other. It's going to be very subjective.

On the topic of the pythons ability to expand it's current range from the everglades across the US. Again its not really a point that can be anything more then speculated on. And how much relevance does it really have ?

What we do know is that Burmese pythons already live in virtually every state and have for decades. To date only one feral population is known. This population by most indications was established many years ago under ideal conditions. Everywhere else across the country after decades of private ownership the only place pythons are or have ever been breeding is in a cage. There has not been a single documented case of even one specimen surviving any length of time on it's own let alone a population establishing anywhere outside of South Florida. Combine this with the fact that there are no incidents of these animals ether feral or escaped associated physically harming a member of the general public . Again this involves a large number of privately owned animals over a long time frame. These numbers show an excellent record that overall indicates they present a very low risk to both the public and the environment. To me this a critical element to this debate as it's the only one based in fact and not possibility.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

You might be right, but the process seems entirely a** backwards. In a nutshell, an agency charged with protecting our environment has to put the onus on the general public to prove there ISN'T a problem? That's illogical. It's like asking a defendant in the courtroom to prove he didn't commit the crime.

All the USFW had to do is go online and do a few google searches to know that tropical snakes would not survive in 99% of the country. Even my 8 year old could do that. And if they couldn't do that, why not do a simple test (ie, putting live burms in outdoor enclosures to see how long they survive) before giving any credence to the request to even investigate. The whole thing is ridiculous.

For what it's worth, I did exactly what you suggested and made specific rebuttal points to the USFW. Hopefully it will mean something, but I'm not optimistic.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Could I make some suggestions on how to respond to the USFWS Notice of Inquiry? I've worked for various Fed agencies and understand a bit about how to deal with actions like this, what they can and can't use to make the decision.
>>
>>First, remind yourselves just what this action is...a request for specific information. Put your energy into this, not general ranting. Don't drop to the level of PETA and the like. The ban is not being proposed right now...they are asking whether a ban might be necessary based on numbers and costs. The questions are listed in the notice. Anything else you send can't or won't be used, so spend your time until April 30 carefully. Believe me, I've spent days pawing through public comments on various rulemakings and know what isn't going to be useful to the decision maker. Give them a general opinion and the response will be "OK, well, thanks for commenting...but nothing you said gives me any more to work with".
>>
>>They are looking for specific things upon which to base any proposed ban. We can stop this by providing them overwhelming information that a non-specific sweeping ban on constrictors just isn't warranted. Try to get answers to the listed questions in your states...talk to breeders, dealers, pet shops, etc. about what they produce, sell, etc. Support your information. Are there feral constrictors in your area? No? Yes? Are native species being decimated by feral snakes? Remind them that the impacts from invasive weeds (also classed as injurious species), feral cats and rats (no one proposed banning the interstate movement of housecats and they kill several million birds every year all over the US, including endangered ones), habitat loss are far more important to endangered species recovery than non-existent exotic constrictors. The recovey plans for every listed species describes the documented threats...make the case that exotic constrictors are not the primary threat. If you don't know, find out! Overwhelm them with information! We want to make the point that a broad brush ban isn't necessary or even effective. Other injurious species are listed and managed on a species and regional level. Snakes could be also. If FL has a problem with a specific species for whatever reason suggest that they deal with it on a specific level. If VT or MT don't have a problem and never will, a ban on exotic constrictors there just isn't warranted. Remind them that native snakes also prey on those threatened species and are already adapted to their specific climates. We can defeat this with reality, with reason, with information, not screaming and wailing about philosophies.
>>
>>Thanks for letting me comment.

Actually, (and I'm not trying to pick an argument with you, just clarify)

The USFWS is not charged with protecting our environment. They are charged with protecting native wildlife, its habitat, endangered or threatened species, or species that normally range across state and national borders such as migratory birds (because these species can't really fall under the jurisdiction of any one state). They use the Lacey Act, Migratory Bird Conservation Act, ESA, NEPA, Marine Mammal Protection Act, US Customs regulations, and other acts to carry this out. If someone like the agency in FL petitions them to list a species as injurious because it poses a threat to native wildlife they must consider whether it is a valid request. Before they propose or pass such an action they must request information from the public. That is the purpose of this exercise. It's not that they are not doing research themselves. They must include publicly generated information in addition to their own. I don't know what information sources they have already compiled, but I am sure they have quite a bit. They are giving everyone outside their own agency the chance to inform them. Does that help? I'm sure it seems backwards, but that's not the issue now. Answer their questions and we can all stop this thing.

We're having a friendly discussion, don't worry about picking an argument.

Okay, I didn't get the USFWS mission statement verbatim. Doesn't really change anything.

I appreciate your information, but I also hope you understand why people are cynical. Just look no further than the USGS map.
I hope the USFWS has a little more scientific integrity.

And keep in mind, these forums are for people to express themselve, ranting and raving included. There's nothing wrong with that. And just because someone rants and raves on a forum(s) doesn't mean he hasn't already written a well thought out, rational response to the USFWS containing the points that you are bringing up.

Again, I do appreciate the information you are posting. I think the process need improvement, but if that's the way it works, that's the way it works.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Actually, (and I'm not trying to pick an argument with you, just clarify)
>>
>>The USFWS is not charged with protecting our environment. They are charged with protecting native wildlife, its habitat, endangered or threatened species, or species that normally range across state and national borders such as migratory birds (because these species can't really fall under the jurisdiction of any one state). They use the Lacey Act, Migratory Bird Conservation Act, ESA, NEPA, Marine Mammal Protection Act, US Customs regulations, and other acts to carry this out. If someone like the agency in FL petitions them to list a species as injurious because it poses a threat to native wildlife they must consider whether it is a valid request. Before they propose or pass such an action they must request information from the public. That is the purpose of this exercise. It's not that they are not doing research themselves. They must include publicly generated information in addition to their own. I don't know what information sources they have already compiled, but I am sure they have quite a bit. They are giving everyone outside their own agency the chance to inform them. Does that help? I'm sure it seems backwards, but that's not the issue now. Answer their questions and we can all stop this thing.

Oh I agree that forums are great for opinions, rants etc. I just don't like to see concerned folks spending lots of energy commenting on a fed proposal in a manner that can't be used...and then they think the agency completely ignored them. Doesn't help anyone make a better informed decision.

I get so tired of blaming the world's evils on snakes when there are all sorts of feral animals causing a lot more damage! Feral cats kill a huge variety of sensitive species and they can survive in many more habitats across the US than most snakes. No one seems to care that kitty is an indiscriminating killer. Goats, pigs, and cattle have decimated habitats and we hardly ever ban their commercial transport. Marine and air freight introduced malaria-bearing mosquito species to south Pacific islands and Hawaii which decimated most of the native birds. Yep, we also introduced the brown tree snake too.

There, that's my forum rant. Thanks for listening!

>>All the USFW had to do is go online and do a few google searches to know that tropical snakes would not survive in 99% of the country. Even my 8 year old could do that. And if they couldn't do that, why not do a simple test (ie, putting live burms in outdoor enclosures to see how long they survive) before giving any credence to the request to even investigate. The whole thing is ridiculous.

that has to be one of the most rediculous things Ive heards ina while, thats like chaining a dog in the center of a field on a 100 degree day with no water, shade etc then wondering why it cooked, when it couldnt go anywhere
-----
One day I'll dance on your grave
Even if you're buried at sea
Till then, till when I exact my revenge
I'll tell them, "You're dead to me"
Megadeth

Wow, you really like making strawman responses. An outdoor
enclosure can be as big as you make it. You assume too much.
(But I guess when you have nothing to back up your claims...)
Like I said, I'll use an acre or two of undeveloped land I own here in North Carolina, build a fence around it, and bet you $25,0000 the snake won't survive. I'll even toss in rats for it to feed on. How about it?

>>>>All the USFW had to do is go online and do a few google searches to know that tropical snakes would not survive in 99% of the country. Even my 8 year old could do that. And if they couldn't do that, why not do a simple test (ie, putting live burms in outdoor enclosures to see how long they survive) before giving any credence to the request to even investigate. The whole thing is ridiculous.
>>
>>
>>that has to be one of the most rediculous things Ive heards ina while, thats like chaining a dog in the center of a field on a 100 degree day with no water, shade etc then wondering why it cooked, when it couldnt go anywhere

">>Wow, you really like making strawman responses. An outdoor
>>enclosure can be as big as you make it. You ASSUME too much.
>>(But I guess when you have nothing to back up your claims...)
>>Like I said, I'll use an acre or two of undeveloped land I own here in North Carolina, build a fence around it, and bet you $25,0000 the snake won't survive. I'll even toss in rats for it to feed on. How about it?"

lets just assume it doesnt escape the fence first LMAO, is this going to be a 10ft fence we hope it doesnt craw over or 1/2inch hardware cloth built like a bird avaria? in that event make sure there is no 3 inch holes in bwetween the fence or the ground

oh wait I was supposed to assume you were going to dig a moot, dump concret in and stick the fence in that, right?

ok now well get serious, heres why you stupid little 2 acre fenced in area is no differant then chaining the dog in the sun, becasue a burm could survive in NC hold up under someones house during the cold periods, whether you want to believe it or not pythons do inhabit areas with weather patterns just like your beloved NC and they do survive
-----
One day I'll dance on your grave
Even if you're buried at sea
Till then, till when I exact my revenge
I'll tell them, "You're dead to me"
Megadeth

Your not just quoting him you are him. I base that on your answers are what I would expect out of someone like Dave Mustaine. Like I keep trying to tell you I actually live here in Fl. I actually keep herps outdoors here and have done so for almost 13 yrs. I have learned what you can and cannot get away with here in central fl. and while I can tell you that even with the experience I have there is a lot more I can learn but I can tell you this burms will not survive outside this far north no matter where they hide. Maybe african rocks could survive abit further north based on the temps that occur in South africa that are similar to cent. fl. but I wouldn't hold my breath. maybe yellow anacondas could survive here as I know they range into areas of brazil and paraguay that have similar to here and I know from personal experience that green anacondas can handle temps much cooler than I would have thought (though still not outside temps here.). But I do know of someone in Orlando who tried to overwinter argentine boas outside and had some problems with it and argentines supposedly can handle the low temps. I can tell you I won't be putting my argentines outside in winter. But ultimately the point is burms aren't going to make it much further north than they already have and if somebody thinks they are going to, well then they're probably too dumb to be in Metallica and that's pretty dumb if you ask me.

LOL you guys all underestimate these animals, I assure you an large roaming free could survive the winter in GA, and again I should clarify I guess I keep refering to burms but im speaking about all the large snakes on this list

a free roaming Dumerils boa(i know its not on the list but) could survive the winter in NC, Ive worked wityh those for enough years to know that must of the info out there about them is simply bullcrap, you guys so underestimate these animals and a 2 acre pen in not sufficient to test that, any predator confined to 2 acres anhd left to its own means will almost certainly die, 2 acres is simply not enough

you guys really under estimate these animals, granted our genetically weak albino boas and crap like that are junk to start with but good strong healthy reptiles are not nearly as fragile as everyone makes them out to be, ive been doing this since the 80's and back then there was no vision cages or heat tape or any of luxuries we have now, anyway you guys will learn in time there not the fragile little beings you guys are making them out to be
-----
One day I'll dance on your grave
Even if you're buried at sea
Till then, till when I exact my revenge
I'll tell them, "You're dead to me"
Megadeth

" Your not just quoting him you are him. I base that on your answers are what I would expect out of someone like Dave Mustaine." Themadaxemen

If Mustaine was like this guy he would have folded Megadeth in 93 when things got tough for metal.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

>>
>>If Mustaine was like this guy he would have folded Megadeth in 93 when things got tough for metal.

in 93 things got tough, metal didnt get outlawed
-----
One day I'll dance on your grave
Even if you're buried at sea
Till then, till when I exact my revenge
I'll tell them, "You're dead to me"
Megadeth

Thanks for the sane, rational, productive input.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer