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Last week I was lucky enough to be contacted by someone who was trying to find a home for a Louisiana Pine Snake that was a long term captive at an intermediate school in SE Texas. I took the animal before I realized what it was. Once I found out about its status, I immediately made some calls and ended up donating it to the Ellen Trout Zoo in Lufkin, TX. My wife and I took 3 measurements of it by laying a piece of string along the length of its body and found it to be between 75 inches and 80 inches. I searched the web but the largest specimen that I can find on record is just a little longer than 70 inches. Does anyone know if this is still accurate? I mentioned this to the zookeepers but I don't know if they are going to try and confirm or not. I thought that it would be an interesting bit of info to pass back to the kids at the zoo if it is indeed the record. The one thing that the zookeepers did mention was that it had unusual coloration. I've tried to add a link to a picture of it on Flickr.

Some things to consider about "Record Lenghts" for snakes.

Measuring a live snake's length is tricky at best. Snakes just don't like to stretch out straight.

The string-along-the back method usually requires at least three measurements, from which an average is derived. Also popular, "Serpwidget" suffers from errors introduced by the photographic process. I believe most of the "record lengths" in the Field Guides are taken from preserved specimens.

The measurement technique used today on live snakes is to anestathize the animal first. This method was used recently to verify a new record length for the Prairie Kingsnake. The event was described on a thread here on the forums.

While Guinness accepts captive lengths, they don't bother with anything but the absolute longest, e.g., Reticulated Pythons and such. However, what most biologists accept as "record lenghts" are strictly wild-caught specimens. As far as I know, captive lenghts are not considered "records" since they are not "natural".

For this Louisiana Pinesnake to be considered an "Official" Record", it would need proof that (1) it is the correct subspecies (not a hybrid), and (2) that it is wild-caught.

If the snake in question was a long-term captive, it would be disqualified. If it also had "unusual coloration", its subspecies identity might be suspect.
Hope this makes sense - If I am in error, someone please correct me!

Cheers,

John D
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.1 Eastern Kingsnakes

You are correct on that. While this whopper ruthveni is certainly interesting it would not qualify as a record length for the species since this data only applies to free ranging wild specimens. Even a specimen that was initially field collected and maintained long term would not be elligible since the snake would have put on size under artificial conditions.

In the past several years Will Bird and I have managed to document new record lengths for several types of snakes by having them put to sleep by the vet staff at the Louisville Zoo. Once sedated the snakes were measured to verify their lengths and subsequently released at the point of capture. The standard protocal for years was euthanizing the animal in question, measuring it and then stuffing it in a pickle jar to place on a shelf at a University collection. Fortunately times have changed and this new method which does not take the life of the animal is accepted. We have now established new record lengths for prairie kingsnake, black kingsnake and eastern ribbon snake and these records have been accepted by the CNAH.

Phil

I couldn't initially view your photograph but copied the properties and was able to find it. I don't think the snake in the photo is a Louisiana pine snake. For one thing the blotch count is way too low.

Phil

I honestly don't know what it is. I did send pictures to the zoo in Lufkin before making the trip and they told me that they were definitely interested in taking the animal and that it did appear to be a Louisiana Pine. I asked again once I was there and the response was something along the lines of "We think so but the pattern isn't quite right". I did check out their exhibit where they have on of their snakes on display and took some photos of that. It was a much darker specimen than the one I brought them. It sounds like the one I brought was probably a hybrid of some sort.

I'm not quite sure what I'm doing wrong when I try to link photos on my posts. I'll try and figure it out so I can put up a couple of other shots of it.

Thanks,
Dan

Phil,

If I didn't say so before, Congrats on the records!!!

Growing up reading Conant (cover to cover), I would daydream about catching a new record Kingsnake, Bullsnake, or even (dare I say it?)...Yes! A true 9-foot Eastern Indigo!!!

Ah, but ce la vie...

Best Regards,

John D.

P.S. If you'er ever herping in East Tennessee give me a holler!

JPD

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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake
0.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.1 Eastern Kingsnakes

Thanks for the reply, John. I really had no idea what went into the process as I've never been interested in measuring a snake's length before. The only reason that I brought it up in this case is because I thought it might generate more interest in conservation and herpetology in general for the students. We did find the string method very difficult as the results varied by 5 or 6 inches over 3 measurements (approx 75 to 80 inches).

The snake had been in the school's possession for at least 15 years, pre-dating any of the teachers there. It's origins are clouded in mystery and no one can verify whether it was originally wild caught or captive bred. Either way, it's still a really cool animal and the kids are excited that it has been donated to a conservation program. It looks like the picture didn't make it in my previous post so I'll post the Flickr link for anyone who is interested in seeing it:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/84967061@N00/2291563151/

Thanks again for your quick reply.

Dan

that these zoo guys didn't recognize a northern pine when they we're presented w/ one?!?

Zookeepers are not necesarilly herpetologists. Most reptile keepers are not particularly familiar with the species which inhabit the immediate region.

Don't get me wrong, they are often great herpetoculturists. However, most zoos are run by the local government and keepers are civil servants. They are often transfered from one department to another. A keeper with a herp interest may wait years for an opening in the reptile department to open.

I can see why the keepers misidentified the Northern Pine as a Louisiana Pine. They aren't required to know anything more than about the animals they work with on an every day basis. Easy mistake.

Cheers,

Terry Vandeventer

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Everything in your post leads me to believe that the snake was a hybrid or some other species. Of eleven wild (founder) snakes Bob and I got during our work almost twenty years ago, they all but one averaged about 3 1/2 to four feet in length. One big female was somewhat over 6 feet in length. Captive ones commonly surpass this. Post the pic.

Cheers

Terry Vandeventer

Saw the picture. It's a Northern Pinesnake.

Cheers,

TV

Thanks for the ID. I looked up some images on Google and that appears to be a better match.

I've also posted this photo to Flickr in case this was doesn't make it either.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/84967061@N00/2294900458/

Pine Snake Photo

Looks like a Northern Pine snake to me, still a cool find but likely an escaped pet

Yeah, no doubt thats a fine looking northern pine. Good luck with your educational programs!

Phil

Yup, I agree with the idea that it is a Northern Pine or a hybrid. Definitely not ruthveni!

Shalom,

Pat

doesn't look as big as this one

I wouldn't count a captive animal - especially one of UNKNOWN origin - towards even an "unofficial" size record. I've had ones that broke 7' in my hands. Nasty and obese, so I suspect that one only reached 7' due to being REALLY pushed for maximum size in minimal amount of time. I wouldn't count that as normal or healthy. I have yet to see a wild one of such length.
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven