Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I currently have a large adult male black pine and will be picking up 1.1 yearlings in the next week. My adult male is pretty much as solid black as they come and has been so since I picked him up as a Juvi back in 2001. The 2 yearlings I am getting are nowhere near as black and have alot of retained pattern. I dont mind the pattern at all but I know some folks have sold inter grade southerns/blacks in the past and I just want to make sure what I am getting is pure lodingi. I have seen pictures of babies exactly like them so I am fairly sure but I guess I was just wondering what those with more experience then I think about the whole intergrade situation.

Also, does anyone have any pictures of adult black pines with alot of pattern still present? It seems most pics are of the darker "Indigo" phase.

One last question. Since my adult male was near solid black when he hatched out I have never witnessed darkening with this ssp first hand. Is there a chance for more drab yearlings to blossom into the "Indigo phase" or are they pretty much going to stay the same?

Sorry for all of the novice questions and for saying "Indigo phase" LOL I figured it was the best way to explain.

Thanks in advance!

There's no way to tell if black pines are pure or are intergrades. I think there was a time when black pines and southen pines naturally interbred in Florida "back in the day."

There is variability in the "blackness" of black pines. But without a way to test for "purity," there's no way of knowing what that variability is in non-intergrade black pines.

Tim

Third Eye

Thank you for the info Tim and that is a beautiful black pine! Thanks for sharing the pic.

Take care,

Jeremy

All Black Pinesnakes are more or less patterned when they hatch. Some will turn solid black while others will retain traces of the juvenile pattern. Occasionally the pattern actually increases with age. I have seen several Mississippi adults which were as boldly patterned on the rear 1/2 of the body as an Eastern Chain Kingsnake.

In Baldwin County, Alabama they naturally intergrade with Florida Pinesnakes. Adults are cocoa or dark mahogany with white banding on the posterior half of the body and nearly patternless white bellies.

Remember that Black Pinesnakes are not really black. They are extremely dark brown in bright sunlight. In cages or otherwise under artificial light they appear "Indigo" black. Before the species was widely recognized, visitors to my house used to get a sly smile and ask me how I aquired "those." They were seeing my big Black Pinesnakes and mistaking them for Eastern Indigo Snakes.

Cheers,

Terry Vandeventer

Thank you for the info Terry! I was aware that they naturally intergraded with southerns but I wasn't sure exactly what they looked like. Thank you very much for the description I believe the animals I am contemplating buying are indeed the real deal. As I said previously, I dont mind a heavily patterned black pine at all. I find all pinesnakes to be fascinating and beautiful. I just didn't want to pay more for less.

As for the brown sheen, I agree completely. Though my male in the right light will give any Drymachron a run for its money he is indeed brownish. The only hint of pattern he has left is just around the cloaca and you can not distinguish saddles at all. Only a few specs of white blended in with the dark brown/black. Oh and of cource the white throat.

Here is a pic of my male in the transfer bin.