Reptile & Amphibian Forums

on this forum, i breed every summer to keep my food bills down, and i was curious if any of you do the same, and if so where do you buy your breeder boxes? or do you just use tanks? every summer i have 5 breeder boxes going and one ten-twenty gallon grow up tank.

Adam
-----
Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

I started my colony in Dec. 06 and have about 20 tanks, we will be going to tubs this summer. They only offset my bill, not as much as I had hoped, but more than I seriously estimated. I think I will like cleaning tubs much better than the tanks, lol!
-----
Todd Hughes

Hey Todd, i am guessing that your collection is much larger than mine. i usually set up 5 breeder containers, and it pretty much cuts my food bill in half, and sometimes more, but that is when they are really cookin.

Adam

-----
Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

Well, I have about 60 snakes, roughly half are adults or just big eaters! I have 22 yearlings and only a few are still on pinks. We bought two more holding tanks today, lol!

-----
Todd Hughes

Ok that sounds about right, i have 1/3 the animals you have and i am working with 1/4 of the mice colonies.

How often do you freeze off surplus?

its finally going to start warming up here in Vermont soon, so i am hoping to set up all my colonies sooner than later

Adam
-----
Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

Hahaha, what surplus???
-----
Todd Hughes

Ha, Gotcha, hungry hungry snakes

-----
Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

Are you guys seriously just throwing your live pinkie mice in the freezer? Live mice should be subjected to contained CO2 until the are humanly euthanized, and THEN frozen. In my humble opinion, whatever distress a snake does to a living mouse is part of the nature of things. Whatever WE do, will be scrutinized by people who would like to imagine that we are torturing our feeder animals and that is going to cause further insult to our effort to promote this hobby that we all love.
-----
Maria

Alaska Reptiles

"Life is like a box of thayeri eggs..."

Maria, I don't know where you got the idea that I freeze any mice, but I don't, and I don't know what Adam does. I feed live pinkies, fuzzies, hoppers, and sometimes I stun adult mice for a snake that has a little difficulty. I feed live only, lol!

-----
Todd Hughes

I actually wasn't directing that at you. I said "are you guys" but I meant it in the singular tense.
-----
Maria

Alaska Reptiles

"Life is like a box of thayeri eggs..."

My apologies, I took it literally.
-----
Todd Hughes

no i prekill before i put in the freezer. why jump to such a conclusion?
-----
Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

"How often do you freeze off surplus?"

That's how I jumped to the conclusion. I'm glad to hear that I'm wrong about that.
-----
Maria

Alaska Reptiles

"Life is like a box of thayeri eggs..."

By the way, I think the best cages for mice are the ones supplied for transgenic mice in laboratory settings. There are many suppliers and you should be able to purchase them for personal use. They tend to be a little expensive, though. The screen on top holds both the food and water bottle so there is not much mess. One cage typically holds a male and up to 5 females comfortably.
-----
Maria

Alaska Reptiles

"Life is like a box of thayeri eggs..."

I did a little research on this and found out that co2 is not considered humane for killing pinkies and fuzzies. The reason is at that lifestage they need less oxygen than adults and the co2 does not kill them quick enough. Suffocation was actually considered the more humane method and is accepted by laboratories and such as the best method. With sub-adult to adult mice a slow delivery of co2, leading to unconciousness, followed by a quick increase in co2 to bring on death was the best method.

It is true that neonatal mice and rats (up to 10 days old) are resistant to hypoxia and take longer to reach unconsciousness with CO2. The guidelines from the National Institute of Health (who oversees all funded institutionalized lab research) does allow CO2 use for neonates as long as death is verified after. The other acceptable methods that they list are injectable anesthetics, decapitation or cervical dislocation. I've personally, never heard of suffocation being used as humane way to euthanize neonates, but my point of view is from the "lab research" end of things. I would think this would be the same situation as with CO2.

I've used all of these methods for adult rats and spent over 10 years decapitating 2-day old rat pups. Decapitation alone was usually not good enough. My last animal protocol had to state that the decapitated heads were immediately placed in liquid nitrogen.

I think for the average hobbyest, the most practical method would be cervical dislocation. I don't know what is being used by rodent breeders and suppliers (I've always assumed CO2) but it would be interesting to find out.
-----
Maria

Alaska Reptiles

"Life is like a box of thayeri eggs..."

isnt CO2 the same thing as suffocation? i mean you are replacing the air with a gas which is suffocating the animals
-----
Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

Not quite the same. With co2 the animals supposedly do not know they aren't breathing air until they are groggy. Suffocating they know immeadiatly that something is wrong.

yeah i guess so, i have gased plenty of rodents and i would say there is a look of panic on their faces too, when you take away oxygen from any animal there is going to be panic involved no matter what. but that is my opinion.
-----
Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

How much panic would you say occurs on average when you gas? Do they run around the container or do they just appear more alert (increased heart rate, etc)? Do you work somewhere that uses CO2 tanks, or do you have a home supply?

Ether used to be commonly as another inhaled method of euthanasia. There was definitely a panic response the animals had here. Ether has a strong smell and its quite irritating to the eyes and nose.
-----
Maria

Alaska Reptiles

"Life is like a box of thayeri eggs..."

we have a full CO2 set up at work.

we sometimes have to use it for guinea pigs that are just way too sick, happens very rarely but we need to have one just in case.

as far as rats go there is definately a sense of shortness of breath and that is when the panic in them sets in.

I guess what i am trying to say is Humaine to me is as fast as possible not a certin method. Humaine and killing are two words that doent go together in my book.
-----
Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

"Humaine and killing are two words that doent go together in my book."

Word.
-----
Maria

Alaska Reptiles

"Life is like a box of thayeri eggs..."

Word.

-----
Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

I had always assumed CO2 was being used but after a discussion with a small producer that used to deliver in this area i found out a few do use cervical dislocation, it seemed barbaric but from what I have read it is quick. I still have mixed feelings on it all, i guess this is why I still buy most of my food items. If my hubby is around and I can sweet talk him into doing the job we use what we raise, if I have to do it, they get the mouse factory. I just can't bring myself to doing it.
Maria, I like the little tunnels and excersise wheels,...lol. I still let my kids keep pet rats they do make better pets than hamsters, but then again at some point i have to look at them as food, but it is so hard.

-----
Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Michelle,

If cervical dislocation is done correctly, it is very humane, although I understand it can be hard for people to do and unpleasant to think about.

I prefer to buy my food frozen as well. I only keep some breeder mice to have live pinkies for the stubborn feeders. So I guess if I look at it that way, the adult mice are my "pets"
-----
Maria

Alaska Reptiles

"Life is like a box of thayeri eggs..."

Thanks, I appreciate the info. I have never had to kill any pinkies or fuzzies, I was just repeating what I read on the internet. I can't remember the specific source. I have never actually used co2 either. I have killed some adult mice before and I thumped them. I don't know if that's acceptable but they died a whole lot quicker than any natural predatory death so I can't say it would bother me much.

In case you or anyone else is interested, here's the description for performing cervical dislocation according to the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) Guidelines for Euthanasia, June 2007 :

"For mice and rats, the thumb and index finger are placed on either side of the neck at the base of the skull or, alternatively, a rod is pressed at the base of the skull. With the other hand, the base of the tail or the hind limbs are quickly pulled, causing separation of the cervical vertebrae from the skull. "
-----
Maria

Alaska Reptiles

"Life is like a box of thayeri eggs..."

that is by far i think the best method for any animal that is big enough, when you get into smaller sized rodents all that seems to happen is their tail pulls off, not many grosser things than that.
i usually use my feeding tongs behind the head.

one of my coworkers can do huge rats with his hands (he has been doing it for over 12 years now), its pretty crazy, personally i am too scared to even try, so i gas them instead.

-----
Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results

Aaron, word! Sometimes you miss, but after a few years, you get better at it. My adults get the exercise of live prey and I am there to prevent any mice getting the upper hand. A quick squeeze on the head puts the biter out of commission. Sounds brutal but I do not have a problem with it and don't usually invite others to participate in feeding days!
-----
Todd Hughes

20 tanks? and your only feeding 60 animals. Call me man, you need new blood. I got some Swiss Webster mice, that are healthy and throw large litters. Ill hook ya up.
-----
South Texas Herps

Haha, Mike, let me explain! my wife Charlotte is raising the mice and gets "attached" to some, so there are breeder tanks, pet tanks and holding tanks. When she sees the color or pattern she likes it becomes a breeder pet, lol! hey, whatever she wants to do is fine with me so long as both colonies stay healthy.
-----
Todd Hughes

I breed mice all year long, and I am a sucker for colored and long haired mice, I also have tanks of just wild colored ones and some that are tricolored, I usually have about 10 tanks going at a time, i still buy a good part of my food though.
Now I do raise all my own rats and keep dumbo rats too.
-----
Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Michelle,

I keep a small breeding colony of mice for those stubborn feeders, and recently the hubby made me get a couple "fancy" mice because he liked the black and white ones. He also purchased one of those fancy cages with tunnels and a wheel so they can enjoy themselves.

Now, none of that bothers me, but when it comes to feeding time, I'm the only one in the room.

And people say women are skittish
-----
Maria

Alaska Reptiles

"Life is like a box of thayeri eggs..."

Hey Michelle, I go for the fancies too. I consider them fun little science experiments with genetics. this summer my girl freind is going to breed dumbo rats. any mouse that is really cool and unique I bring into the store for credit towards frog food, or i use it in a project.

last summer i went for brindles this summer i am going to try and get the long hair gene in with them, long hair brindles.
-----
Positive Thoughts Equal Positive Results