Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all.
I'm keeping snakes since 1997 and i owned a lot of species including balls, GTP's, boas, rainbows, yellow anacondas and many colubridae species. Never owned a big one due to space. I'm living in Rome and here in italy there is a really idiot "dangerous animals law" and other than crocs and hotsalso retics and green anacondas are outlawed. Burms and rocks are free for all. Ok.. my thoughts are about what i'm reading about the danger that burms can cause to thayr owners. Here is oftenly reccomended not to handle them alone when they reach 10' or more. I know a lot of people who owns 14-16' burms and they are handling em every week and oftenly alone. ok that can be easy.... they are lucky. The fact is that here noone is thinking that a burm cab ne "lethal" for an adult human unless it will bite his face and coil aroud his/hers neck... One time i was with a friend that was bitten and "coiled" by 14 ft afrock that had mistaken him for food, pretty scary but no "danger for life" as i saw, with 5 minutes of struggle he had snake off even if the snake didn't wanted to let go by itself. I've read that people were killed by burms in USA, can that be that these people died of heart attack or other compliances instead of being squeezed to death? (press is always using the sensation and the fear of snakes for to make sensational news.)
I don't believe that an adult and strong man can be put down by a 13 ft python so easily. different is talking about children, but children has never to be alone with any POTENTIALLY dangerous animals (even large dogs). I think that is much more probable to be attacked by your own dog, if it turns again you (i have a dogo argentino for example), or to die in a car crash than to be killed by a large snake, i'm not meaning exceptional monster 20' ft ones. Whit that i'm reccomending to handle large snakes alone, i'm only searching some informations and different point of views.

Thank you

Flavio

.

It is possible to handle a snake alone that is 10ft or more your entire life and never get attacked. I'd say you probably will never get attacked, but there is a small chance that you would get attacked. If you were to get bit on one of your hands, then the snake coils around your neck, you would be in serious trouble. It would be very difficult to uncoil the snake with just one hand, no matter how big and strong you are.

Many years ago I was bit in the hand by a 14ft burm. This was a snake that I trusted, but it was the beginning of breeding season and she was eating everything in sight (including me HaHa). She bit me in the left hand and tried to coil around my waist, I had a friend there, but he didn't have a clue of what to do. I had to tell him several times to keep her from coiling around me. We finally got her off of me, but I don't know what I would have done if he wasn't there to help me.

I would recommend having an extra person there anytime someone handles a large constrictor and not just anyone, but someone that knows what to do. There was a guy in Denver, CO that died when his burm wrapped around his neck and his friends called 911. They didn't have a clue of what to do and basically stood there and watched him die before emergency people could get there.

We own several large burms and it's not worth the risk to handle them alone, even though it is unlikely one of us will ever be attacked again.

Hope this helps,
Randy
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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

Hi Flavio!

We don't get many members from Rome, Italy. In fact, you're the first one I've ever seen here.

Please forgive me for being the skeptical lil' rascal that I am, but I can't seem to find anything about Rome or Italy's dangerous animal laws referrencing snakes, only cats & dogs. Do you have a link that I can view some of the laws there?

You may very well be legit so I don't won't to offend you. However, I will be myself, out front, open & honest.

I sincerely suspect that you could be trolling for ammo. You see, we just so happen to have a situation on our hands here in the great United States of America involving large snakes as suspected dangerous animals. What a coincidence, 'eh?

But to show you what a sport I am, I will go ahead & tell you the truth (it's my nature) about the dangers that large snakes present.

I feel that it's more likely for a person to be killed in a car accident or several other "normal" everyday activities than by a large snake. I believe statistics shows this to be the case.

I have never heard of an innocent person (non-keeper) being killed by a captive snake or one that was labled as "escaped" or "released." So, if people want to take a chance of getting into an automobile accident by driving, then I say, let 'em drive. Oh, wait, we do. Good. Keep it that way.

Yes, domesticated dogs, not undomesticated snakes, pose the greatest danger to society as far as animals are concerned. But, darn it, not too many people are afraid of dogs.

Have a great day!

Oh, please don't forget to post links to Rome's dangerous animal laws, I'd like to see what foreign communities are doing, saying. Thanks!

HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Please read & consider my post above before replying to this thread.

Thanks!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hey hey!
I was reading here that in US they are trying to make that awfull laws regarding imports of snakes and such but... i didn't understood well why you're thinking so about me. I'm reading and sometimes wrtiting on this forums as it is one of the most complete in the web as i believe, i posted many times in ball python forum about my first attempt to breed my spider male. I wrote there i'm fro Rome many times.
I just asked that question regarding handling large constrictor because i read that in USA they are considered so dangerous as it is always reccomended to handle them with other experienced persons while here people are doing that thinking they can cause at least few bad minutes of struggling and a nasty bite. I was just talking...
in any way here in Italy in 1996 some really idiot politicians made a total ban on monitor lizards, venomous snakes (except many rearfanged), crocs, snapping turtles, gilas and they included retics and green anacondas due to size. Other than that they outlawed thousand of other animal species such as monkeys, big cats, bears, wolves and much more...

Here are some links for you. In Italian of course:

This one is taken from the major italian site of reptiles enthusiasts. Go to www.serpenti.it forums and there i'm writing as 8Flavio8

http://www.serpenti.it/legislazione/decreto19041996/decreto.htm

This one is an official report of the law by a governamental site:

http://www.regione.sicilia.it/Agricolturaeforeste/Corpoforestale/contenitore/CITES/normativa/Decreto_Min_Amb_19_04_1996.pdf

Here you can see the whole list of species prohibited.

I don't want you all to think i'm someone else than what i'm saying to be, just because i wrote about this argument and i'm from Rome.

Flavio Becherini

Hey Flavio!
I'm sorry for being overly cautious & suspicious, if I had done better research before posting I could've avoided the confusion I caused. Please forgive me, as I do think you're legit; sincere & honest.

I was in a hurry earlier today when I posted and did a sorry investigation job, it was incomplete. I'm in a hurry now, too, but I didn't want to let another minute go by before trying to make things right with you, for you.

I'll come back as soon as possible and give you a better a view of my beliefs & feelings on handling big snakes alone, etc.

Catch ya later!
Mike
(HH)
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hi!
Don't worry! Reading all the post i wrote and considering the situation created by the danger of these kind of laws in your country i can imagine my post could cause some doubts... i'm glad that now everything is ok.

I really hope that noone and nowhere will make laws banning any kind of animals (like here). I believe that some simple rules proposed by experienced reptile owners will be the best way to make safe and consequently legal the responsible ownership.

Yes, i'm interested in discussing with you about handling large snakes. For now, as i said i cannot own any snake that will reach more than 10' due to space, the largest cage i can place in my home is 5'x3' of floor space so a burm will be there only few years of it's life... and i will ever own one i would have already available the space for a nice cage where it will live it's entire life. I'm just interesed in different point of views and experiences.

Thank you and talk later

Flavio

I'm glad to see everything is ok between you and Happy Hillbilly (Mike). He is a nice guy and didn't mean anything personal toward you. The whole reptile community is on edge right now with this proposed ban of interstate transportation.

If you have room for a 5' by 3' cage that would go a long way with a burm. The depth of the cage is more important that the length. A 5' by 2' cage wouldn't be big enough for an adult, but that extra foot of depth would house a burm up to 12' to 14'. Burms don't typically stretch out, they usually lay in coils. If you were to get a male burm, a 5' by 3' cage would probably last him his entire life.

Randy
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

Here are the measurements of our big cages:

7' by 3 1/2' by 3 1/2'

8' by 2' by 2'

They work pretty good--- our kids are always coiled up on one end or the other-- never really strech out unless we open the door...

enough room for a huge water dish and there is a basking spot...

As for handling them alone--- I would do it if I had to, and only b/c we've had the girls we have for a while. I trust them enough that I could handle them-- but a lot of times, if I'm alone at nite and just making my water rounds- i'll just open the cage and take the dish, wash it, and put it back full-- sometimes they come check me out and sometimes they just pop up and look and then lay back down...

As for major handling-- my husband is with me every time.
I'm a med-size girl and I can pick up a 90 lb dog, but i can't pick up one of our girls, my husband can barely pick her up and hes a big guy.... If she did decide she wanted me- it wouldn't be hard-- but shes well fed and I just dont think the desire is there...

It can be done, and i think that by the time he's big enough to be a small threat-- you would know your snakes body language enough to be just fine. I can tell immediately when I open the cage if we're having a good or bad day-- its obvious and I act accordingly.
Many times there is nothing I need to do that can't wait 1 or 2 days when we're in a better mood- and they always are...

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

Thank you for your reply!
I will never be tired to say i really hope that no ban will be applied and the intelligence and common sende will finally win even in little-minded politichians. I'm going to buy some nice ball morphs fro an amrican guy on 15th march. He's coming on Hamm (Germany) expo and i already sent him the deposit. You all in USA are much more developed in this hobby and i'm really happy to gain some experience talking with you. It would be very sad if you would be affected from such idiot and above all not usefull laws.
Regarding the burm thank you for your advice. I would like really much to have one and even if that cage's dimensions can be fine, i will try to buy a pair of nice dwarf ones, there is a german breeder who has very nice ones and largest female is 2,9 meters and she is 6 years old. I will see, i love ceylonese pythons too, there is a friend of mine who bought a pair las year and they are soooo beutiful and with great personality. On burm morphs i like most of all granite and albino labirinth but the new codom hypo (het leucy) is something interesting too...

How many burms you have? Did you bred em?

Ah i'm happy too that noone is thinking i'm someone else than Flavio Becherini from Roma

Glad to talk with you!

Flavio

Americans may be ahead in breeding, but personally, I think Europeans have fabulous enclosures. I hear of reptile owners who have created elaborate and beautiful enclosures for frogs, snakes, or lizards that are large and typical of their natural habitat. While I love that look, it can be really hard to care for, too!

I have a 12ft male albino Burm and he lives in a 6X3 cage. He coils up and night on the warm side, but I do see him strecthing out quite a bit, too. He was in an aquarium for 10 years, so maybe he's just taking advantage of the extra space now! Ha Ha!

We have dwarfs also, our biggest girl is about 6ft and our biggest male is about 5.5ft. We bred our male dwarf to our 12ft albino granite female last year and got what we are calling 1/2 dwarf het albino granites. They were born in May of 2007 and are now about 4ft. The wild caught dwarfs are usually on the aggressive side, but the babies are all very tame. Our biggest dwarf is wild caught, but has no aggression at all. We also have a pair of the hypo het leucistics, they are beautiful, we can't wait to see the combos out of them, especially the blue eyed leucistics.

Not counting the babies, we have 7 normal sized burms and 7 dwarfs. They range in size from about 3ft baby dwarfs to a 14ft albino green female.

Here is a picture of one of our half dwarf babies.

Here is a picture of our male hypo het leucistic.

Talk to you later.

Randy
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

I would be really happy to start a dwarf project. It would fit well in my enclosures and above all it would be a great pleasure to work with these animals and breed them to spread this dwarf form in Italy too

What is the size you expect of the 1/2 dwarfs as they mature?

Here there are some burms sold as "dwarfs" too but they are only poorly fed normals, there are a lot of unthrustable brreders who are trying to gain money in any way, if i'll go to buy a pair of dwarfs i'll go to a reasonable breeder. Next year, if someone from USA (may be you ) will come to an european show and will bring dwarfs i'll take a pair for sure.

Talk later

Flavio

We think the 1/2 dwarfs will max out at less than 10ft. We are freinds with another breeder that produced 1/2 dwarfs het albino in 2005. He kept a trio, the male is 6ft and the females are 7 and 8ft. They bred this year and should lay eggs this month sometime. These have all been feed well and seem to have maxed out on their size.

Full dwarfs max out at 7ft, anything over that size and I would be skeptical if they are true dwarfs. Our biggest male was imported as an adult in 2004 and is 5.5ft long. We purchased him in August 2006 and he hasn't gotten any bigger since we got him. We also purchased a 1.3 group in august 2006. They were all about 3ft when we got them, 1.2 are about 4.5 to 5ft long now and one female is about 6ft. The 6ft female eats like a pig on XXL guinea pigs and seems to have maxed out on her growth. There are some differences in the pattern of dwarfs versus a normal burm. Once you are familiar with the differences you can pick a dwarf out from a regular pretty easy.

The dwarfs are some neat animals and we are working on incorporating the morphs into the dwarfs. We are hoping this will increase the interest in dwarfs, especially will all the laws that the government is attempting to pass.

Thanks,
Randy
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

Thank you for your explaination. I'm relly interested in these dwafs (i would already have super dwarf retics if it would not be prohibited here) I deciding on starting this project may be stopping the other i'm doing now (male DH snow X albino female boa They will be reay next winter) i really love burms and doing something good introducing morphs in the dwarf specie.
Tell me, what can be the price range of a thrue dwarfs pair?
Talk soon!

Flavio

I emailed you earlier, not sure if you received it. If you would like more info on dwarfs, send me an email at info@artinscales.com and I will answer any questions you have.

Thanks,
Randy
-----
Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

I'm not a breeder by any means--- I am not such a fan of burm breeders-- no offense to those who do-- just not my thing-- seeing as how we get several in a month that "are too big" .... seems that theres so many unwanted ones-- why bring more into the world--- lets recycle--- i have the same opinion on humans but thats totally different.

We have 2 burms that are permanent residents of the rescue-- we use them for education-- constantly told they're huge and most people have NO idea how big they get. We end up taking home at least 1 burm from every event we do with these guys-- someone sees ours and has one at home and either him, or his wife flip out and low and behold-- another burm appears! lol

doesnt bother me any to have more-- i think they're great.

i actually have burm scales tattooed on my shoulder-- needs to be finished though.

anyway-- I really like the labrynths-- and i like the granites-- not so into the greens-- but most of what we get are normals and albinos-- never had anything "fancy" -- never had a dwarf come in either...

personally, i'm still waiting for my lavendar albino retic to come into the rescue-- its the only way i'll get what I REALLY want!! lol

anyway-- i think theyre a joy to have around and if you're getting a dwarf then you have more than enough cage space for an adult and i hope you enjoy him!!

Beth
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The rescue site: www.freewebs.com/okreptilerescue

> > > "I'm not a breeder by any means--- I am not such a fan of burm breeders-- no offense to those who do-- just not my thing-- seeing as how we get several in a month that "are too big" .... seems that theres so many unwanted ones-- why bring more into the world--- lets recycle..."

I perfectly understand what you're saying, Beth. I am just getting into breeding with last year being the first time. I wrestled long & hard with the decision and here's the conclusion I came up with:

With typical, normal Burmese Pythons, I pretty much agree. I'm not so sure that everyone should stop breeding normals because I'm afraid that the "normal" bloodlines will become too diluted with all the various hets that can sometimes show up in their colors & patterns. But then again, how do you control how many people breed them? Heck, I don't know. But I do know what you mean about so many being discarded.

I don't think the higher-end morphs fall into the same category as I've not heard of any labyrinths or granites ending up in animal shelters or rescue centers. But some may fall thru the cracks here & there. It's basically the same thing with Ball Pythons, too, but maybe not quite as severe. And dogs, cats, etc...

I strive to breed quality labyrinth burmese pythons but for the next few years some "normals" will come from the same clutch. I hope to reduce, if not eliminate, that possibility within a few years. I breed qualtiy German Shepherds and I'm selective of the buyers. I've got a few people that's been after one of my pups for years and they still don't have one. And they won't get one from me, either. It's not gonna be so easy to be so selective with the online buyers of the few normal burmese I produce over the next few years but I'm considering several options.

We breeders face some of the same problems rescue operations & animal shelters face. Win some, lose some. And it is frustrating to most of us responsible breeders.

Hang in there, you're not alone.

Take care!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Flavio,
I'm glad you didn't take offense & are understanding about my suspicion. I tip my hat to you in respect.

First off, I think statistics pretty much show that we stand a better chance of being killed in automobile accidents or many other normal, everyday activities, than being killed by a large snake.

I don't know how many owners of large snakes there are worldwide or here in the USA but I think the ratio of keepers and those killed by them would be a good report and tool for combating further regulations.

Personally, I'm one of the ones that believe it's best to not handle anything over 10ft alone. Now, the more slender-built Retics might could safely be handled alone up to aproximately 13ft or so since they lack the muscle mass of the Burmese Pythons. Don't hold me to that 'cause it's been too long since I've dealt with the strength of large retics, I currently keep burmese.

Now, what I'm about to say may come across as offensive to some but I certainly don't mean for it to. You see, I have a wife & two kids that depends on me, I'm responsible for them. That makes me more cautious than I was before I got married, when I had the "Mr. Tough Guy" attitude or felt that I was indestructible, which I actually used to feel.

We're dealing with undomesticated animals that still have a lot of natural instincts that deserve respect. Not fear, but respect.

Most, but not all, of the "What the heck, handle that sucker" attitudes I've seen have come from one or more of the following types of people: Single, young, self-serving, macho, non-thinking, etc... Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everyone that has or does handle big snakes alone have these characteristics. I'm not saying that, at all! I'm just saying that the majority of the ones I know of do.

I've seen, or heard, of a few people that seem not to fall within one of those categories handling big snakes alone. I'm not saying they're crazy or anything like that. I just simply don't agree with it, that's all. And who am I, right? Right. I truly believe that some people can have more than enough trust in their big snake to do so. But, my thoughts are, "What if the time ever comes that they need help?"

There was a fella, I believe it was in Indiana, a few years or so ago. He was in his late 20s or early 30s and his family said he had plenty of experience with big snakes. One evening after supper he went out to his reptile shed to administer medication or force-feed (tube) to a new 13 or 14ft burmese he had acquired a few days earlier. After several hours someone in his family went to check on him & found him dead from what the medical report later said was asphyxiation (evidently squeezed to death).

It only takes just one time to eliminate time. That time may never come, but what if it does?

One reason I suggest to not handle alone is due to the fact that there are so many inexperienced keepers that actually think they're experienced. If I say it's OK to handle a 14ft burmese alone and someone goes out and buys a neglected 14ft burmese python and takes it out while alone and the thing goes ballistic on them, I've contributed to it. The funny thing about that is I'm the last person on earth to not lay everything out on the table being completely open & honest, and not watching what I say due to someone that's not capable of making good decisions on their own.

Now, considering my 9 1/2ft male burmese python - I don't have a lick of problem getting it out alone. It has never even hissed and is so sweet, gentle, and not flinchy or nervous. Ask me in another year or two, when he's bigger, and we'll see if my attitude or beliefs have changed. I doubt it, but you never know.

Randy (ArtInScales) has several large burmese that I know he trusts and they have good dispositions, but yet he's still mindful of the one attack he's encountered. It's called respect. And Randy ain't no lil' fella like I am.

I'm not scared to take my snakes out alone, not at all. I merely don't do so out of concern for my family in the unlikely event that something bad were to ever happen. Last, but not least, is the black eye I'd give to the "big-snake keeping" community if I were to be killed by it.

That's just my view, but I'm a nobody. Seriously. I'm basically just a statistic, but I'd like to keep it a "good statistic".

Have a great day!

And thanks again for being understanding.

Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hey, i liked your reply really much... that is a very interesting point of view i was searching for and i understand completly and i believe it's completly right.I do not own huge snakes as i said and i'm not personally in the problem at least yet i was interested in some ideas of responsible keepers of other countryes where herpetoculture is more developed. You hit the point when you're saying many people who are risking whithout thinking so much are exactly in the categories you mentioned. May be here even more than there There are also other keepers that are just thrusting theyr animals so much because they have them since 10 to 20 years. They are saying " that snake is CAPABLE of create serious trouble, even kill me but it will never i know that..." another mistake in my opinion. Never say never, expecially when you're dealing with animal minds.

I'm married too but no children yet and for now i'm happy with my slow moving, not gratly eating fatty ball pythons and my boa constrictors. I'll surely bring, in some time a pair of dwarfs or a pair of ceylonese, better choose for me, regarding space as first but also avoiding problems that i'm not sure i will be able to solve (my wife can stay there watching but i'm not sure she will not be too scared if something will go really wrong

Have grat day

Flavio