Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Unfortunately, I was not able to catch last night's chat on the new federal python and boa law. Is a transcript of the chat available?

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Ben Team
Mark Davis
New Paradigm Herpetoculture
Captive Bred Morelia
404-438-2135
chondro776@yahoo.com

Hey Ben,

I managed to sit through the hour long chat regarding the Boa, Python and Anaconda potential law and thought it was a complete waist. A fantastic opportunity was missed to ask relevant and pertinent questions of a Fish & Wildlife Service representative who is directly involved with their information gathering. In my opinion only a couple of useful questions were asked throughout the entire chat. Instead it came across as disorganized finger pointing [bleep] session. It seemed as though the invited panelists didn’t have a clue how to proceed or what really needed to be discussed. In my opinion it was not their fault but the time would have been better served if the meeting was run by a Facilitator instead of a Moderator. I only hope that if USGS agrees to a similar meeting that it will be much better organized.

Truth is that this industry needs a Trade Organization along the lines of the American Cattleman’s Association www.beef.org, National Pork Producers Council www.nppc.org or any of the other professional agricultural associations. We need a place where our national sales and production numbers can be gathered and disseminated in a professional, recognizable and documented way. That is about the only way that any government agency or animals rights group will take us seriously. Otherwise we come across as a disorganized group of very passionate hobbyists. Perhaps this is a role for PIJAC or perhaps not?

Sorry for the rant but it just my .02 cents.

Rico Walder
Signal Herpetoculture

I missed the forum, but I absolutely agree with your sentiments in your second paragraph. This every man for himself Wild West attitude is going to be the death of us all. We need to be proactive, not reactive. A self policing Professional Society is the only answer with any long term hope.
We should adopt minimal standards and practices and actually help law enforcement remove the bad seeds from the trade.
I seriously hope this is an idea who's time has finally arrived.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I think most of the fault rests on my shoulders for not requiring a more strict format. This is the very first time we attempted a panel chat of this type and such a contentious subject didn't give us much room for error. The next time we do a panel chat of this nature it will be much more controlled. I don't think anyone could have foreseen that USGS would have released their paper, or that USA Today would run such an alarmist news article prior to the chat, and try as I and the moderators did, we could not get the other panelists off the subject and back to the matter at hand.

Still, if you could follow the various conversations that were
going on at once I think there were some important questions asked, answered, and skirted as well. I did not expect the USF&W rep to be able to give us much more information than is in the circular and I was just glad to see them participate as I was glad to see PIJAC participate. That both organizations would show up on a friday night to talk about these issues show that they are willing to reach out to the community.

Once the edited version of the chat transcript has been posted it will be much more readable than the actual chat was and there will be some real information that comes out of it.

Is PIJAC the answer? Partly. I don't think there will/can ever be any one organization that can fairly claim to represent all the various interests involved, whether they be a pet owner, breeder, importer, pet store, academic, or zoo professional. Not at a national level or at a state or local level. It's just impossible for one organization to say it represents all those interests under the same umbrella and to do it effectively. PIJAC is really built to deal with issues at a federal level or greater. They are not built or designed to deal with issues at a state or local level. Unfortunately I think that not addressing these issues at the state and local level quickly and effectively has let the problem achieve a national prominence.

We probably come closest but we are a commercial business and not a political action committee or group and its not something we are really designed or equipped to deal with. I think the answer will be multifold and lies within utilizing the resources of PIJAC and other organizations such as Herp Societies and clubs. I do think that there are some other organizations that need to be formed so to speak to represent the special interests of the various groups within the overall herpetological community. Whether they should be formed under the aegis of PIJAC as say a sub group I don't know. I do feel that if we rely entirely on PIJAC to carry this ball we will fail.

As far as asking USF&W questions, if you have them please send them directly to Erin at USF&W. She has been very helpful and responsive according to others that have contacted her. Once you get your question answered though I would encourage you to post it here for others to read.

Finally, it's not necessarily a bad thing to leave make the other site think we as a community are a big unruly disorganized mob. I can tell you behind the scenes there are many things going on that can't/won't be revealed til the closing weeks of comments. We are probably much better organized than they suspect.

This will sound funny coming out of a "madman" such as myself but. Whether it be pijaac or another organization that is formed in our interest. Borrowing from the Cattle men's association. Perhaps the time has come for something similar to the beef check-off program they have. How the check-off program works is that a dollar or 2 of every head of cattle auctioned off is taken and used for a promotion campaign for beef. While this program has not been totally free of controversy among ranchers, over all it has been quite successful. Perhaps something like this could be established to where such a fee is charged per animal sold on say 'kingsnake' (for example) and at certain shows (I could think of a certain show in august that would generate lots of revenue this way as could several others.) provided the money absolutely went to that purpose. I am sure it would take some serious work to legitemize such an idea but it does seem to work for the beef industry. Perhaps also it is time to ally ourselves with other groups that are also the targets of such legislation that ultimately has it's roots with the animal rights groups in this country. Hunters farmers, owners of other types of exotics. A few years back there was an individual on this web site who liked to take pot shots at the wolf-dog groups. Something I found comical for several reasons I won't get into but ultimately it was comical because they have their s*** together and have had for many years and while it is true that they lose some battles they win some as well. I( also think we really need to drill the message in to the politicians about the connections of these animal rights groups to the domestic terrorist groups they fund. It's kind of hard to get up on your pedastal and carry on about "fighting the war on terror" when people are protesting their support of legislation backed by people who support such groups.

Jeff and All,

Jeff is correct in his statement that not everyone that is interested in herps can be in an all inclusive group. The reason this is so is because folks have differing agendas. Many academics and regulatory agency biologists(they come from academia) do not have the same goals as private herpers do. Most academics want to protect herps at all costs, finatically so in many cases, even if that means taking away the rights of private citizens. Additionally, many don't keep herps so they do not respect those that want to. Further, many have hijacked an Animal Rights Group agenda when it comes to catching, keeping, breeding, selling and possessing herps.

The private herpers should be able to come toegether under one umbrella because we all have the same agenda: to acquire, keep, breed and sell herps as a hobby or business. The problem I have seen is that many private herpers do not realize where their captives come from - wild caught. Many folks straddle the fence of conservation, preservation and keeping herps. They try to please those with a different agenda (academics and agency biologists) and that will never work because the agenda and goals are different in many cases.

But there are win/win solutions in conservation. Conservation means wise use. Those that respect individual rights, realize economic realities, and support valid geographically relavent science can come together. If we can weed out the AR agenda, the brown nosing, and educate private folks we can come together. We can model the herp industry as the fishing industry where there are two sub-groups: commercial and recreational if need be.

This is getting long winded. The bottom line is that I believe private folks can come together under one umbrella. Academic and zoo herpetologists can pick which side they fall on. They either fully support private herpers or they don't.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

An all-inclusive group would not only be difficult, but actually counterproductive. For example, take the fishing analogy. In actual fact, many if not most states now ban commercial freshwater fishing (or limit same to rough, non-sport species). If you were to form a group to promote recreational fishing that also pledged to fight for the promotion of commercial fishing-well, as an avid fisherman myself I can assure you you would not attract many members from the sport fishing crowd, since commercial fishing has ruined many a great sport fishery! EVERY recreational fishing organization I know of opposes commercial freshwater fishing.

The same holds true for herping-a large and growing number of states now ban commercial exploitation of their native herpetofauna. That's just a fact. If we want to lose recreational herping as well, then the best way to do it would be to lose credibility with decision-makers by promoting commercial take. I'm not saying we should fight against commercial interests, just that they should have their own lobbying groups.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Rico and All,

What you speak about is something that our group, The American Herpetological Association (AHA), is willing to add to our agenda. We, also, are going to be a herper's rights group modeled after the NRA. We need a professional organization no doubt and if we don't hurry up and get this done we will find all of our rights and privileges gone.

The problem with creating any organization is finding the time and money to get it done. I have been working on the AHA for many months now but it is a slow go. I have other pressing things to do as well, like herps and school. To start with we will need money and volunteers but to really be successful we will need paid employees. I have had some folks say they are interested in being members but no one has stepped up to volunteer their time. It seems folks want action but are not willing to put in the effort it will take to get there.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Not yet but there will be very soon

LOOKING FORWARD TO READING IT.
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
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Conservation through Education

As previously stated, PIJAC is by far the most effective NATIONAL lobbying organization, and we must all get behind them against this nationwide threat. But they cannot be expected to be able to respond adequately to attacks on the state and local level. For that we need strong State organizations that are committed to responsible herp regulations that are scientifically defensible and minimally intrusive on the rights and priviledges of the herping community.

Herpetological Conservation Unlimited is just such an organization. Here in Texas, HCU, though less than a year old, has already been effective in focusing opposition to last year's unjustified and dishonest herp regulations. HCU has already lined up a formidable political agenda and list of allies for the next legislative session. Further, HCU has negotiated access for herpers to vast tracts of private land in west and south Texas.

HCU's membership list reads like a "who's who" of Texas herpetology, and includes members from the academic world, private sector, and even law enforcement. HCU is dedicated to finding real, workable solutions to legislative and regulatory challenges, ones that we all can live with.

HCU's constitution is set up to make it easy to add other state chapters. If you wish to learn more, or want to join us, please visit WWW.HCU-TX.ORG.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....