Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello, I'm new to kingsnake.com. I grew up loving snakes, whatever I could catch around the home in Kansas. Gardner, Ringnecks, Corn, Bull, and had a great 5 ft. Coachwhip a friend got me in Oklahoma. My only bought snake back then was a Speckled King. Well, mom was horrified of snakes and wouldn't let them in the house. I hid it and once it got out being found by my mom a few days later in the laundry.

In college and soon after I had bad luck which had kinda kept me away from snakes. I had a baby Corn snake, but it died a few months later. Right after college I had a baby Speckled again and it died. Both died the same way, I found them between the hot rock and aquarium glass.

Now in my 30's married and with a 15 mo daughter I'm thinking about getting a King or two again. If so I would want to be completely confident I could avoid the mortality. I would rather leave it to experts or the wild if I'm not capable. I thought I had a good setup with aquarium, hot rock, astro floor, and fed them pinkies.

A few probing questions...

1) I don't have to be cheap anymore, what is the absolute best equipment setup for a few Kings?

2) What is the optimum temp and what are acceptable ranges?

3) I don't believe I have a convenient place to buy pinkies, best to raise myself, mail order, or frozen OK? Another food better?

Any tips as I consider to get back into this or not?

Haven't owned a snake for 10 years, only fun has been catching a few around the yard and playing with a few minutes before letting go.

What I believe is a Speckled King found in backyard last summer, daughter was very interested.

Bullsnake caught in our shed about 5 years ago.

What I think is a Rough Green Snake with some type of blue discoloring caught in porch flower pot.

Thanks,
rob

From what you said, I'm guessing that the hot rock was the cause o death for both of your previous snakes. They tend to distribute heat unevenly and can develop "hot spots" which generate temps unsafe for reptiles. Also, the astroturf flooring isn't that great, either, as snakes in general like to burrow.

Some people prefer undertank heaters (UTH) and some prefer lights, but whichever you choose, temperatures should be monitored closely. Personally, I use both, with the UTH on constantly, and the lights on a timer for daytime use only. Also, snakes should be provided with a thermal gradient, with a warm and cool end in the cage. As to what specific temps you need, that depends on the species of snake you settle on, although 85 degrees is a good all-around number.

Snakes should also be provided with at least two hides (one on each end of the cage, warm and cool). The hide should be snug, as it makes feel more secure, small openings (about big enough for the snake to squeeze through) and low to the ground.

In general, snakes don't need a lot of room, although some of the more active species will appreciate it. I prefer to have a cage about long enough for my snakes to stretch out completely. Kingsnakes aren't really arboreal, although they may occasionally utilize branches and things of that sort. Horizontal space as opposed to vertical is the way to go with kings.

As far as food goes, frozen/thawed is definitely preferable to live, for a number of reasons, the main one being that your snake can be injured or even killed by a live mouse/rat. Also, frozen is usually cheaper than live. Just make sure that the prey item is completely thawed all the way through. A cold spot in the middle can make your snake sick or possibly even kill it.

Hopefully this helps answer some of your questions, and good luck. Kings/milks are a great way to get into snakes, and much more interesting to me than something like a corn snake or a ball python. Pits (pine/bull/gopher) are also a lot of fun, if you don't mind a little attitude.

Joe

Thank you very much Obscenity and tspuckler. As I gather more and more information I want to start some sub-threads on specific topics. This one on cages.

I didn't take too long and found the Boaphile Plastics Cages in the classifieds. I looked at several and this one catches my eye as well constructed, decent price, and included options. I can't imagine having 10 snakes, but I would rather have too much room than not enough. I'm looking at a 421 Townhouse stack. I believe what you've said about 12" height should be enough and length I can divide to have either 2 ft or leave open for 4 ft.

Are there some brands besides Boaphile you would recommend I consider?

Using the Boaphile as an example, are there some other sizes and configurations you would recommend? I'm thinking the height is good and have options for a 4 ft. stretch with adults.

I live in Texas. I was thinking about placing the snakes in a finished room above the garage. We don't centrally cool it, but do have a window A/C installed. I think keeping the upstairs room cool in the summer will be more of an issue than keeping warm in the winter. Typical Texas heat our A/C has problems keeping up and downstairs will get 76-78 degrees at worse. Without the window A/C the upstairs may heat up to 82-84 on hottest days. I think on those days we can kick in the window A/C to keep temps acceptable.

So would I be covered to have 'Under Cage Heat X 1.5' in each 421 (located in center to be warm zone for each side), Florescent Light each side of 421, and a Thermostat?

Trying to make sure I've considered everything. Thanks!

Boaphiles are very nice, and I think they are better suited for boids in that the construction is heavier-duty than is needed for light-bodied kingsnakes. You may use them of course, and they will work nicely. Plus they offer heating installed as you mentioned.

From experience, some of the cages I have liked for colubrids like kings and milks are made of either polystyrene or ABS. These materials can be thin and light yet very strong, resulting in light-weight cages suitable for colubrids.

Here are some suppliers I have used with success:
www.herpcages.com
www.precisioncaging.com
www.dragons4you.net

Sounds like you do not need too much heating, and Flexwatt will work well on any of the above cages, as will any heat pad. You may use a single thermostat for a group of cages when using heat pads or flexwatt. Proportional controller will be your best tool for undercage heaters. What I do is put the probe on a spare heat pad and have that plugged into the same outlet strip as the cage heaters. That outlet strip is plugged into the controller output.

There are a few controller mfgrs to choose from - Helix, Big Apple, Spyder Electronics. All work very very well.
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Mark

So I get my cages, I get my snakes, what do I need to expect for maintenance of both?

Feeding - once a week?
Water - check daily?
Clean cage - monthly?

What else do I need to consider being a great caretaker?

So I get my cages, I get my snakes, what do I need to expect for maintenance of both?

What else do I need to consider being a great caretaker?

I'd suggest picking up a couple of current kingsnake books, just to get an overall feel of what's out there.

I've got a sweet little Florida (or Peninsula, not sure yet) Kingsnake who is an awesome eater. I feed him a couple f/t (frozen/thawed) mice twice a week or so. Once a week also seems to be fine for many kings. I would definitely recommend checking the water every day, especially there in Texas, even with the a/c, it could dry out pretty quickly. Make certain, of course, that your water dish is not on the same side as the UTH.

It depends on what kind of substrate you choose to use on how often you have to replace it. I would say, anytime you go to check the water, if you see snake poo in the cage, remove the poo and the little bit of substrate around it. I've got a natural terrarium setup, with plants growing and such, so I don't swap out my substrate very frequently, but I search carefully for snake poo and sheddings and remove them. From what I can tell, aspen snake bedding or the ground coconut husks (Bed-a-Beast) work pretty well for kings. I've got a five-inch layer of substrate for my little guy now, giving him plenty of room to burrow and he seems to be very comfortable in his cage.

As far as where to get the frozen mice, some pet stores do carry small packages of them, usually six in a box, but it's much cheaper to order in bulk online and they don't take up THAT much room. I ordered 25 pinkies/25 fuzzies recently and they take up less room in my freezer than a TV dinner.

Make sure whatever cage you get has a VERY secure top. I still have a missing kingsnake due to either a loose lid or me not paying attention while cleaning the cage.

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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake possible mix (Eddie Gein)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

I have a kingnake myself, and find its a great snake and very easily domesticated (she was quite aggressive when I first bought her, but tamed within two weeks). BUT, from my experience voluntering at a local reptile zoo, kingsnakes in general CAN (this doesnt mean WILL, but more 'have the ability to') be a little irritable throughout their lifetime, and have a very reliable feeding response. My kingsnake has to be fed in her tank because her feeding response is too intense, and she will bite ANYTHING coming close to her after the food is presented and a good 24 hours after eating. Outside of those times, she is a perfectly tame and friendly snake. Maintenance wise, kingsnakes are very easy to care for. I feed a young adult rat once a week, generally the size of the largest part of her body. Check the tank whenever you look in on the snake for any feces and clean them out of the tank, thi will prevent infections, etc. Check water every day or so especially if you use a heat lamp because it will evaporate most of the water. I believe the reason you lost your babies was due to the heat rock. I personally don't like heat rocks, like the other user posted, they don't leave the snake much options in controlling it's body temperature. I use heat lamps and find they work fine both at the zoo and at home. Keeping it at one side of the tank allows the snake to move around to where it finds a confortable medium. Under tank heating pads work great too, I just dont personally used them on my tanks. beware: once you attach a pad to the tank, it's there for life. Kingsnakes like to dig around in their tank, so have a nice, dig-safe substrate for the tank. Overall, you've picked a good snake for a family home.
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~Fufu~
1.0 Oketee Cornsnake
0.1 Albino California Kingsnake

"beware: once you attach a pad to the tank, it's there for life."

I must have a different kind than you use, I've had no troubles removing and resticking my UTH. I always remove it before putting the tank in the tub to wash it. I just make sure that while it's not attached to my tank, it doesn't get any carpet lint or lots of dust on it.
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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake possible mix (Eddie Gein)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

I've looked and looked and can't find a complete list of Kingsnake Subspecies or are there a few Species of Kingsnakes and the Common Kingsnake is just the prevalent Species in United States?

I'm not interested in cross-bred Kings (is that what is called Hypo?). I would like to find a list of all the pure Subspecies of Kingsnakes. Here is just a list of common ones I found for sale in the classifieds.

Florida
California
Speckled
Gray Banded
Honduran

Thank you,
rob

Hypo is short for hypomelanistic, which means reduced melanin (dark pigment) giving the snake an overall lighter/brighter appearance, generally speaking.

As far as kingsnake species/subspecies, I'm a little rusty on taxonomy. I'm sure someone else here will be able to give you a good rundown.

Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to point out that you didn't mention my personal favorite kingsnake: the Eastern (Lampropeltis getula getula).

Also, a simple Wikipedia search turned this up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsnake

Being Wikipedia, though, I don't know how accurate or comprehensive the species list is.

There's some dispute - but for the common kingsnake, the generally recognized subspecies are:

California
Desert
Mexican Black (aka Western Black aka Sonoron Black)
Florida (including Brooksi)
Speckled
Eastern
Black (aka Eastern Black)
Apalachicola (not often seen in the trade)

There are also some quite distinctive locality integrades - they are naturally occuring integrades - I think Goini is one of them (someone may correct me, if they do, trust them over me).

Milksnakes - there's something like 25 different subspecies. I like Pale Milks and Red Milks as far as US subspecies, but do not own any. If you get a US milk, make sure it accepts pinks - some come out of the egg only wanting lizards.

Mountain kings - the most popular in the trade are Arizona Mountain Kings. Both L pyromelan pyromelana and L pyromelana knoblochi are farely well represented. Same warning about making sure they eat pinks.

Another beautiful king you should consider is a Gray Banded Kingsnake. They are extremely beautiful, all phases are extremely beautiful. Again, with GBKs - make sure they are feeding on pinks before you acquire them.

Try to buy from a breeder rather than a pet store, most breeders will bend over backwards to help you out if you have a feeding issue or otherwise need advice. Breeders like to see their young live to become nice robust adults.
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x.y L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
x.y L. getula nigrita (MBK)
x.y L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
x.y Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus (W Hognose)
x.y.z Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

I had the exact same experience you did when trying to decide what king to get... I never even really wanted a snake until I saw a california king at a local pet store. I thought that the only snakes sold were pythons and the like. I didn't want a python because of how big they get. But the king I saw was sold before I could save up the money to buy the equipment muchless him (it was Christmas time... always short on funds at that time!). When I went back to the petstore to see if they had anymore kings, the ones they had were $100 ... which I wasn't about to pay because the one I had seen was originally $55. So I did some internet searching and found a few breeders and saw their prices and of course realized the outrageous mark-up on kings in stores. So I decided to wait until a reptil expo came to town where I could buy directly from a breeder for a decent price. (Also, the pet stores I visited had not cleaned their snakes' cages in a loooong time... I visited almost weekly and saw little improvement in their conditions... I was also informed that one of the snakes that I was interested in had been sick.) I don't regret my decision in going to a reptile expo, and I also got to see all sorts of incredible snakes at the show!

Anyway, I had decided I definately wanted to get Cal king, but as I researched, I discovered so many different patterns an morphs just within the Cal sub species, I didn't know what I wanted! So I eventually decided to get something as unique as I could find (althought the plain banded one suited me really well) and looked to see if any breeders at the expo had something like it. So I picked out an Aberrant Reverse Stripe High White morph... if you can call all of that an official title.

Anyway, here are some links I used to research all of the different morphs within the Cal King group:

http://www.pitt.edu/~mcs2/herp/Lg_californiae.html

http://myweb.cableone.net/azmilk/calaztec.htm (This was the one that I was searching for at the show... or one similar to it).

http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/pages/l.g.californiae.html (page 1, and page 2)

http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?query_src=dl&where-taxon=Lampropeltis getula californiae&where-lifeform=specimen_tag&rel-lifeform=ne&rel-taxon=begins with&title_tag=Lampropeltis getula californiae

So, here is the one I bought, we named him Homestar.

I saw in one of your posts that you're from Texas. I'm in DFW, and I saw an ad for an upcoming reptile expo in Arlington this weekend (March 8th). If you don't live too far away, plan on making a trip to see what you might like. I think admission is $7.

Best of luck in deciding what to get (and I'm not biased at all... really!)

I live in Southlake. I would love to visit the show, but just had a long talk with my wife.

She is great especially considering all my hobbies and is game for whatever I want to do with snakes, but wants me to sit on the idea for a couple weeks. That is maybe smart. My heart wants to buy a cage stack right now and start buying snakes. So the plan now is sit on the idea for 2 weeks and then if still wanting to move forward just buy one cage and snake. We'll see how that goes before buying an entire cage stack.

LOL. I know how that goes. My hubby is the same way. He didn't think I was serious when I said I thought we should get a snake. And for me, it took several months before I could get one, so it wasn't like he didn't have plenty of time to get used to the idea.

I think what turned him off was the day I brought the snake home and he tried to handle it and it lunged at him. He hasn't been interested in holding the snake anymore.

Sitting on it is a good idea - it will be a few months before '08 hatchlings are widely available - giving you much better selection than you'll find right now, when the best of '07 production is mostly gone.

That gives you a few months to look into the different species etc. so that when the '08 hatchlings start coming to market, you'll know exactly what you want.
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x.y L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
x.y L. getula nigrita (MBK)
x.y L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
x.y Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus (W Hognose)
x.y.z Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

As mentioned before, the term "hypo"(hypomelanistic) has nothing whatsoever to do with a cross-breeding of any type. It literally means greatly reduced melanin(dark pigment). This is a single recessive mutation in Kingsnakes and Milksnakes. Of course there are many other morphs that combine two or more mutations at the same time in certain snakes.

If you are interested in some strikingly beautiful animals, you could hardly go wrong with a beauty such as this exceptional hypo Honduran Milksnake. This animal displays a greatly reduced dark pigmentation, and is left with an extremely vivid coloration due to the extreme lack of melanin being able to "invade" the other remaining colors in the animal.

best regards, ~Doug

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

A normal colored "Tangerine" Honduran Milksnake from MANY years ago. As you can see, today there can be quite a difference.

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

How about behavior, maintenance, or other differences between male and female Kings? I'm not interested in breeding at all, but wouldn't mind a well mannered snake that won't snap at my daughter or friends.

I don't have much experience, but with my snakes, my males seem to be more friendly and unlikely to object to being handled. My female still hates being messed with, and is prone to strike and musk whenever I reach into her cage. I think the biggest reason for the personality difference though is the males are handled more frequently, and are used to it. I think if I would take the time to handle the female more, she wouldn't be as spaztic.

Overall, even as hatchlings, the males seemed to be all around more mellow and even tempered.
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~Maggie~

"Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious."
1.1 Cal Kings
1.0 Mali Uromastyx
1.0 Brooksi
0.1 Red Belly Piranha
1.0 Quarter Horse
1.0 Australian Shepherd

No real differences to speak of attitude-wise between males and females, however there ARE major differences between individuals, just as in humans, and many other animals. Some humans are just plain mean and CRABBY!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Thayeri yet. Most don't grow any larger than 3-4 ft and have great temperaments.

Of course, I'm still partial to California kings. Mine is six years old and is a great snake to introduce to kids (in a controlled environment of course).

Great Cal King and picture. Congrats!

I'm starting to gather up which Subspecies are on my want list. I'm not interested in crosses or hypo's, just pure Species/Sub-species.

California:

Florida:

Speckled:

Gray Banded:

For California - Kirby has the biggest variety that I know of - and the species has a LOT of naturally occuring variety.

Be sure to check out his website to see what California Kings have to offer.

http://www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com/calking.htm
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x.y L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
x.y L. getula nigrita (MBK)
x.y L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
x.y Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus (W Hognose)
x.y.z Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

So, I was looking at their pricelist and noticed Aberrants and Aztecs listed under Triple hets (my snake is Aberrant)... so does that go for all Aberrants and Aztecs if you don't know their blood lines? I don't know that I'd ever get into breeding, but the genetics are very interesting to me since I'm a Biology student.

I don't know about aztec - but abberant generally are not simple genetics.

Cross a normal striper with a normal banded and you will get some abberant offspring.

I think aztec is selectively bred, not positive.

Anyway - aberrant or aztec have nothing to do with the simple mendalin morphs that a cal king might be het for.
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x.y L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
x.y L. getula nigrita (MBK)
x.y L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
x.y Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus (W Hognose)
x.y.z Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

The advice from the previous person who posted (Joe) is very good.

If I only had one or two snakes, I'd use a custom cage, rather than a tank. There's cage makers listed in the classifieds. Some of my friends like the Boaphile's products.

I don't get too worked up over "acceptable ranges" of temperatures. If there's a hotspot in the mid to upper 80s, the rest of the enclosure is at room temperature, which in my house is quite variable. King snakes are prett hardy.

It's a LOT more convenient to use mail order frozen/thawed rodents than to grow your own.

Tim

Third Eye

Your bull looks just like a Texas rat I think. Speckled is a speckled, the blue on the rough green is neat. No heat rocks, provide a moist hide and dry hide for the young kings, ditch the astro turf, go with aspen. My .02.
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Todd Hughes

Hmm, so you think the big one is a Texas Rat? I don't think we took close up pics. It was just so thick bodied I assumed a Bull, but didn't confirm.

Yep, the blotches on the side do it for me, here's a T-rat and a bull from deep south Texas. If it had a grayish-black head it seals the deal, at least for me!

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Todd Hughes

There are two difference that make it easy -

Pine/Bull/Gopher snakes almost always have four prefrontal scales -

Other north american colubrids almost always only have two.

Also - Pine/Bull/Gopher snakes have a single anal place. Rat snakes have a divided anal plate.
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x.y L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
x.y L. getula nigrita (MBK)
x.y L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
x.y Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus (W Hognose)
x.y.z Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)