Reptile & Amphibian Forums

All,

(This is a continuation of a discussion from below)

Actually having a bunch of splinter groups with slightly differing agendas is by far more counterproductive. What it will take to fight for the rights of private herpers is a very large all inclusive group. The main reason for this is that it will take a lot of money to get the job done. Since most herpers aren’t wealthy it will take everyone contributing what they can afford, which in most cases is a small amount. Further, an all inclusive group would allow all the commercial interests to donate substantial amounts of money. Since they make the most money they can contribute more.

The problem is that many recreational folks either don’t acknowledge their commercial aspects or they are ignorant as to how they were able to get captive born animals in the first place. Almost every single founder exotic herp in the US was brought in by commercial folks. Remember, if you don’t support the right to sell wild caught, you don’t support the buying or selling of imported animals. And who do the recreational breeders sell their left over stock to? You guessed it, the commercial folks. The recreational folks in Texas have argued in the past that they are not commercial folks. They say, “we only recreationally collect” and then they take the animals home, breed them and produce captive born off spring and then sell them. Well, in New Mexico you would be considered commercial. Lets review the New Mexico code:

Title 19 Chapter 35 Part 10 Number 7 Section B defines “commercial purpose” as: “Commercial purpose” shall mean for the purpose of sale, barter, or profit. For this regulation, any person in possession of the annual bag limit or more than the annual bag limit of wild caught amphibians and reptiles shall be deemed to possess these individuals for commercial purposes. In addition, any person in possession of more then 50 individuals with unlimited take, shall be deemed to possess these individuals for commercial purposes.

And from the same regulations Number 8 Section A: It is unlawful for any person to take free-ranging, native amphibians and reptiles in New Mexico for commercial purposes without purchasing and having in possession a valid commercial collecting permit.

Denying the economic realities of the herp industry is definitely where recreational groups go a stray. Everything costs money. Collectors spend a large amount of money to collect herps. Breeders spend a large amount of money to keep and breed herps. Pet stores have high overhead. Dealers have many expenses in their business. To say that money is everywhere in the herp industry and then to say BUT when it comes to wild caught is naive at best. You can’t deny economic reality.

If recreational folks are not into herps for the money then why don’t they give their offspring away? Good question, huh. That is because they have to try and recover some of their investment. So do the rest of the folks involved in the herp industry.

The fisheries example works good for herps. Remember, a fishery is used mainly for feeding folks. Herps are not (except in the case of the Asian market). The commercial fish industry sells fish. Most recreational fisherman do not. You have some folks who sell herps and you have some folks who just keep “pets.”

Just because some states do something doesn’t mean it is the correct or fair thing to do. Let’s look at Tennessee and Georgia: you can’t collect, possess, breed or sell native non-venomous snakes. Tennessee and Georgia passed these laws. They have to be good, right? You want that same law here in Texas don’t you folks? Why do recreational folks feel the need to pander to decision-makers? A little brown nosing? As long as that decision-maker doesn’t take away something you like to do then you will support what ever they say? Since you personally don’t want to sell wild-caught herps you are willing to give that right away to keep recreational (wink, wink) collecting? C’mon folks. Live in the real world.

Maybe there should be two groups: recreational herpers and commercial herpers. Okay how do we define that? The New Mexico way or the Texas recreational group way? Are folks who buy and sell wild caught herps going to NOT join the recreational group? What about the ones who are already members? Can everyone be protected under one all inclusive group?

I submit that two groups are not the answer. Why? We need everyone in one group to have the funds to protect everyone. Trying to define the distinctions are to tough and then there are the realities I stated above. By the way, PIJAC supports both commercial and recreational folks. How come they can do it but others can’t? I rest my case.

DISCLAIMER: This post is not an invitation to personally attack me for expressing my opinion. I hope that the forum moderators will respect this and take action if necessary. I would love to hear constructive counter opinion that sticks to the issues.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Well I think you are wrong. Those recreational group(s) you speak are not "giving any rights away", so your post is flawed, as well as your logic, because you are biased and refuse to view anything from any perspective except your own.

Forks
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Mike,
People are getting tired of the same old song and dance routine you perform.
You are still upset at the HCU and it's by-laws that you refuse adhere to. So, what do you do? You "form" your own association tailored to "your" goals/needs.

You are right on one thing though, we need to be unified and form one voice to fight these laws, not only in Texas,but other states as well.

DISCLAIMER: This post is NOT an endorsement of the HCU or AHA. It is merely my own opinion.

Randal Berry

you have a severe comprehension problem. That recreational group you reference is not opposed to selling a wild caught or two. It is the EXPLOITATION of wild caught herps that they are opposed to (collecting herps for the purpose of selling them). So unless you are exploiting wild caught herps (picking up every freaking toad you see and selling them in lots of 20 or more) then you really don't have anything to say. But if you are exploiting wild caught herps, then you are probably on an island because social and political ideals in the year of 2008 are not going to support your activities.

Forks
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Actually having a bunch of splinter groups with slightly differing agendas is by far more counterproductive. What it will take to fight for the rights of private herpers is a very large all inclusive group. The main reason for this is that it will take a lot of money to get the job done. Since most herpers aren’t wealthy it will take everyone contributing what they can afford, which in most cases is a small amount. Further, an all inclusive group would allow all the commercial interests to donate substantial amounts of money. Since they make the most money they can contribute more.

Mike, we've been over this with you until we're blue in the face. Your arguments held NO water here in Texas and I doubt they will in the nation at large. Commercialization of wild caught animals is just something academic herpers and government regulators have BIG problems with. The money argument is actually counterproductive to your case-for example, here in Texas only a tiny handful of people eke out a meager living collecting wild caught animals. If HCU attempted to encompass them, we would lose academics, government folks, and the large number of our private members who ALSO have problems with commercial collecting! You will see the SAME problem with your national "commercial collecting" group.

The problem is that many recreational folks either don’t acknowledge their commercial aspects or they are ignorant as to how they were able to get captive born animals in the first place. Almost every single founder exotic herp in the US was brought in by commercial folks.

This is not even remotely true, but it doesn't matter. These are different times we live in, Mike. There is actually no longer a need to bring in most popular herps out of the wild. We have self-sustaining captive populations now.

The recreational folks in Texas have argued in the past that they are not commercial folks. They say, “we only recreationally collect” and then they take the animals home, breed them and produce captive born off spring and then sell them.

Denying the economic realities of the herp industry is definitely where recreational groups go a stray. Everything costs money. Collectors spend a large amount of money to collect herps. Breeders spend a large amount of money to keep and breed herps. Pet stores have high overhead. Dealers have many expenses in their business. To say that money is everywhere in the herp industry and then to say BUT when it comes to wild caught is naive at best. You can’t deny economic reality.

Not denying reality at all-you are the one being naive for denying the profound difference between commercialization of wild caught and captive born herps. HCU and other groups fight strongly for the right to breed and sell captive born herps-that is why many commercial breeders are members-and most regulators don't have problems with cb animals or their sale. That is the common ground where our hobby can eke out a future!

If recreational folks are not into herps for the money then why don’t they give their offspring away? Good question, huh. That is because they have to try and recover some of their investment. So do the rest of the folks involved in the herp industry.

Never said recreational herpers don't have money as one motivating factor. what's your point? Nobody here is arguing that people should not make money!

The fisheries example works good for herps. Remember, a fishery is used mainly for feeding folks. Herps are not (except in the case of the Asian market). The commercial fish industry sells fish. Most recreational fisherman do not. You have some folks who sell herps and you have some folks who just keep “pets.”

Well I don't really have a clue what you're getting at here-my point below stands, when you point to fishing you're actually supporting our points.

Just because some states do something doesn’t mean it is the correct or fair thing to do. Let’s look at Tennessee and Georgia: you can’t collect, possess, breed or sell native non-venomous snakes. Tennessee and Georgia passed these laws. They have to be good, right? You want that same law here in Texas don’t you folks? Why do recreational folks feel the need to pander to decision-makers? A little brown nosing? As long as that decision-maker doesn’t take away something you like to do then you will support what ever they say? Since you personally don’t want to sell wild-caught erps you are willing to give that right away to keep recreational (wink, wink) collecting? C’mon folks. Live in the real world.

This is the art of the possible, Mike. We've already had this argument in Texas, and here's a clue for you-you lost! In fact, just about the only support for your views was-YOU. It's been over a decade since the Aviculturists lost the "right" to take birds from the wild. Guess what, the Aviculturists are THRIVING-yes, even those who formerly dealt in wild caught birds! If herpers act now, we have a chance of preserving recreational herping-but the days of collecting mass quantities of wild aqnimals and selling them for a profit are fast disappearing. Whether that is a good thing or not is up to you-but it IS happening. That, my friend, is REALITY.

Mike, you are a commercial collector. I understand that. But there aren't many of you around any more. If I were you I'd settle down and set up breeding colonies of all the species my customers were demanding-in El Paso that should be simple.

Best regards
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Remember, collecting wild herps for profit OR recreation is not a "right"-it is a priviledge (like hunting and fishing). One that could be taken at any time. Does it make sense to alienate the regulators who have our fate in their hands?

But the main reason we try to get along with government regulators and academics is that, quite frankly, we all share one major goal, at least- which is the well-being of wild reptiles and amphibians. Speaking for myself, if I thought for a minute that that goal was incompatible with a healthy private herp hoby, then I would not be fighting for same.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

" the profound difference between commercialization of wild caught and captive born herps."

That is a good point. If you collect a young pair of wild caught kingsnakes and sell them, your yield is two. If you collect that same pair and breed them, selling only the babies, your yield is something around five per year.
If you hold back a pair from the first clutch then in three years you are producing 10 babies per year.
Hold back a pair of F1's every year until the original pair dies(figuring about 10 clutches over the life of the female) you have 10 pairs of F1 breeders capable of producing easily 50 F2 babies per year. Since you can generally inbreed for at least 3 or 4 generations it is not out of this world to think that one well managed pair of wild caughts can produce thousands of babies brefore outbreeding is needed.

Just because some states do something doesn’t mean it is the correct or fair thing to do. Let’s look at Tennessee and Georgia: you can’t collect, possess, breed or sell native non-venomous snakes. Tennessee and Georgia passed these laws. They have to be good, right? You want that same law here in Texas don’t you folks? Why do recreational folks feel the need to pander to decision-makers? A little brown nosing? As long as that decision-maker doesn’t take away something you like to do then you will support what ever they say? Since you personally don’t want to sell wild-caught herps you are willing to give that right away to keep recreational (wink, wink) collecting? C’mon folks. Live in the real world.

OK, I am a little confused who gave what away? Last I heard our rights were taken away despite the good arguments and logic of the herp community. This is in many ways a political issue we need to deal with inside TP&W related to the way they view herpers. It is an expectation of some of them that we collect every animal we come across to sell it, and that we have no reguard for the law. That is simply not true for the vast majority of us, and in reality such a practice would not set well politically in any circle. We are in truth conservationist and we should make every effort to project that image until we wash away that crap they are labeling us with.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

All,

Thanks for the feedback from the HCU crowd. I would be interested in hearing from other folks about these issues. I know most folks who support my view don't post to forums because they are busy working but are there any folks other than HCU folks who read the forums?

Lets look at my points about PIJAC and imported animals.

Do folks agree that PIJAC supports both commercial and recreational interests despite the insistence from folks that the two groups can't come together?

How do folks who do not support the selling of wild caught native U.S. herps feel about the importation of exotic wild caught herps? Is that okay or do we shut down everything and close any hope of new blood, different localities, new species in the trade and new morphs?

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

If you are not "exploiting" Reptiles and Amphibians, then there is really nothing to disagree with HCU about. The more you bemoan our stance against "collecting for the purpose of sale" the more you define yourself as someone that feels herps exist so that you can make a living. You won't be able to hold a serious conversation until you stop looking at Reptiles and Amphibians as your meal ticket.

Forks

BTW Responsible USE is what we ask - many wild imports are being FARM BRED - it's radical new concept, try BREEDING something for a change.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

I'll be nice and not respond to you as I should. Get real.
Michael Luhrs

>>I'll be nice and not respond to you as I should. Get real.
>>Michael Luhrs

Respond any way you like, I'll stand behind that post of mine as will several of the folks participating in this thread.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

you're not selling Wild caught in California, so possibly YOU need to "GET REAL"?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

I think the two words that come to mind is(SANCTIMONIOUS J**K)
I await you next moral pronouncement. Have a nice couple of days.
Michael Luhrs

That's it? Straight to personal insults? I'm almost disappointed, but at that, you can have the last word, especially since I wasn't talking to you in the first place.

Forks
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Mr. Luhrs,if I were you I'd learn a bit more about the people I insult. Joe Forks has put his name, time and money behind his commitment to fighting both for the priviledges of herpers and the conservation of reptiles, amphibians and their habitats. He is EXTREMELY well regarded on these forums and the herping community in general.

Of yourself, on the other hand, I for one have never heard your name....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Brad,

Give me a break. If spreading lies and slander about folks makes someone "extremely well regarded" then its no wonder this hobby is so poorly regarded.

Have a good evening,

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Back that up. I can prove anything I say about you.

Forks
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Okay,

From your post on the Houston Reptile Enthusiasts forum, "But what Mr. Welker doesn't tell you is that he alone is one of the biggest threats to west Texas Box Turtle populations. HE PICKS UP EVERY BOX TURTLE HE FINDS TO SELL." Are you going to start working for academia spreading those lies?

That is a total lie. I collected 2 desert box turtles (proof TPWD collection log) last year and must have moved two dozen off the road. So you are a liar. You spread lies and slander. It is amazing that a habitual liar like yourself could be president of anything.

Keep up with the lies and slander and you will find yourself in court. I have been saving all of your slander. You are building up a great case. Care to bury yourself even further?

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Yeah you probably left one that got smashed. Care to see a copy of the ad you posted on kingsnake selling those Box Turtles? It was more than two. Care to speak with anyone of the half dozen folks that saw you with a styro box full of crap to sell?
You think I don't have a file on you? hahaha

As long as you keep saying we are "giving rights away" I will be here to let the readers know that your comments come from so far out in left field that you can't even see the bleachers.

Good luck with the commercial collectors guild. As long as you keep attacking HCU, I'll let anyone who associates with you know exactly what kind of a person they are associating with.

Just remember, YOU start it every time you bring us up, or reference us with one of your lies. If you don't like it, there's one way to get it to stop, and that is to quit slandering us.

Forks
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Joe,

You are liar plain and simple. If you will notice in those ads those box turtles were not deserts but ornates. I had to liquidate my collection because of the new Black List, those were breeders. I have already explained this before.

What you fail to realize is that I have all my permits and was well within the law. What about you? Have you ever poached any Mexican lampropeltis or brought some back for "personal use" under the guise of zoo permits?

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

My post should read, "You are A liar plain and simple." Either way it still means the same thing.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

are you kidding me? now you are accusing me of smuggling herps from Mexico? hahaha coming from the guy who violates the Lacey Act on a regular basis that is comical Mike. Nice try.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Smuggler Joe Forks,

Thanks for more ammo in my slander case against you. Care to give us your proof? You are not worth arguing with. I don't have the time to live on forums like you.

Have a good one, poacher,

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

How does what you did to rid yourself of species you can no longer work with differ from someone ridding oneself of a species they no longer wish to work with?
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Todd Hughes

I am not against the sale of wild caught. You guys are. So when one of your members breaks the constitution or bends it, you guys look hypocritical.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

" How do folks who do not support the selling of wild caught native U.S. herps feel about the importation of exotic wild caught herps? Is that okay or do we shut down everything and close any hope of new blood, different localities, new species in the trade and new morphs? " Mike Welker

My feelings are that it's not that cut and dry . It's situational depending on species , location , population density's, collecting quotas etc. Are we talking about importing ball pythons and redtail boas as opposed to collecting sirens and corn snakes ? I don't think it can be covered with blanket statements. To me it's not a question of selling WC yes or no but more a question of selling a specific species of wc and the circumstances surrounding it yes or no.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

As most of you know that read these, I have some pretty strong sentiments on the subject. They go back to the 1960's.
1) There should be some sort of levy on sales, as in the outboard motor fuel surtax, to fund environmental cleanup, monitoring and enforcement.
2) There should be several levels of licensing in order to allow wild caught into the captive population and to permit head starting and repatriation of captive born.
3) There should a mechanism to allow collection of animals from areas of eminent habitat destruction for captive maintenance or relocation. I've personally relocated native plants before they were plowed under. And, I've relocated box turtles that were later found making a bee-line right back to the housing development they were just rescued from.
4) I agree in cooperation with the academics, but frankly to this point, I think they have been rather uncooperative in addressing the legitimate rights of the private sector. I personally believe the private sector has done far more in regard to education and public awareness with that hands on, practical approach. Not too many people read those scientific journals. How many PhD thesis's have you read lately? Academics tend to push for less familiarity and access by the public. Ignorance never helped a thing.
That's a start for this conversation.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Mike,
You have beaten this dead horse beyond recognition...let the beatings stop senor..
Every time you post something, you further alienate yourself from everyone you're trying to reach. Make your organization that you've been "working on", build a website and let your agenda take its course. Quite frankly us silly recreational herpers will benefit from the comparison when we negotiate with legislators.
Respectfully,
Silly Recreational Herper
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Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas
Herp Conservation Unlimited

All,

I want to thank Ernie and John for expressing their opinions. It is nice to see folks who value the discussion by sticking to the issues. Unlike some folks who feel the need to lace their posts with insults and derogatory comments which are counterproductive.
Thanks again, Ernie and John, for a civilized discussion.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I agree with you on the one group plan. Almost 30 years ago we fought the California Fish & Game all the way to the state supreme court. Out of all the people collecting here in California at the time there were only 4 of us who would stand up as commercial. I can still hear the ones who hid in the background whining when we finally lost in one of the most liberal courts ever to be seated in this state... Fish & Game soon made almost everything illegal. It was only then that they finally understood “we will either hang together or we will hang separately but we will hang if we don’t fight.” You need to set up one organization with tiered membership. If someone is paying the hobbyist rate and they are selling then you need to boycott them. I know it sounds harsh if the reptile community doesn’t start acting like grown-ups then the powers that be are going to keep treating us like kids and keep spanking our butts till no gets to keep anything.
Michael Luhrs

30 years ago captive breeding was not nearly as viable as today. I am not totally against commercial collecting but show me some commercial collecters that are organized, science based and willing to fight as strongly for their right to collect and sell as they are for my right to collect and breed. Don't criticize people for joining a captive breeders/recreational collecters group when this so-called all inclusive group of commercial collecters doesn't even exist. Don't expect me to start it either as I am not a commercial collecter and could not argue for it in any sort of knowledgable way. From my perspective commercial collecters are the ones hiding, not the breeders.

"From my perspective commercial collecters are the ones hiding, not the breeders."

ever heard of PIJAC? I do believe there are plenty of commercial representatives with membership to that organization, so they aren't "hiding".

I actually agree with OHI on some of this. I don't support HCU (vocally or financially) because of their criticism of "commercial collectors". If they want to be an organization strictly for the "recreational" keeper/breeder, that's fine. But I've heard too many from HCU that belittle commercial collection, and that is not a way to treat those that should be allies. I don't think commercial collection should go unregulated (there should be limits placed on collection and that number should be reevaluated every year or so and changed based upon collection impacts on populations) but it is very important to the pet trade and the continuation of endangered herps all over the planet. Many of our "non native" snakes that we keep were brought into this country by commercial collection. And commercial collection and sale can provide new "fresh" genetics to breeders who don't have access to the natural home range of the snakes that they breed. I live in Virginia, and it would be hard for me to make it to Texas to collect my own wild specimens of, say, gray-banded kingsnakes. Much less a breeder overseas. Should they not have access to obtaining these animals? Do you believe that only people in and around Texas should be working with these animals? By excluding commercial collection you have inadvertently (or maybe advertently) limited your support size to only local individuals plus a select few nationwide friends.
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)

Finally, someone who wants to discuss the issues at hand, and sounds like he is interested

>>But I've heard too many from HCU that belittle commercial >>collection, and that is not a way to treat those that should be >>allies.

I think it is important that not all commercial collectors be lumped together with the commercial entity who posts on this forum. I'm sure that just like in life, there are all sorts of folks who collect commercially. Some are responsible and law abiding, and some are not. We do NOT wish to put a stop to commercial collecting. Mike only wishes to derail our efforts because we do not support him, but he has nothing to fear that even remotely resembles "giving away rights", not even for commercial collectors. Firstly, even IF we wanted to bargain away those rights which we DON'T, I don't think we have that kind of power yet. Your next thought carries in with mine, read on...

>>I don't think commercial collection should go unregulated >>(there should be limits placed on collection and that number >>should be reevaluated every year or so and changed based upon >>collection impacts on populations) but it is very important to >>the pet trade and the continuation of endangered herps all over >>the planet.

Absolutely, which is why we agree with the premise of the TP&W Black and White List. Let me say straight off that the application of species and numbers IMO needs work. It's far from perfect IMO. But it's a start and it's a great compromise. It's allows for commercialization, and we support it.

>>Many of our "non native" snakes that we keep were brought into >>this country by commercial collection. And commercial >>collection and sale can provide new "fresh" genetics to >>breeders who don't have access to the natural home range of the >>snakes that they breed. I live in Virginia, and it would be >>hard for me to make it to Texas to collect my own wild >>specimens of, say, gray-banded kingsnakes. Much less a breeder >>overseas. Should they not have access to obtaining these >>animals? Do you believe that only people in and around Texas >>should be working with these animals?

Yes, everything has to be collected from the wild first and foremost. In a nutshell, we want protection for species that need protection, and reasonable and SUSTAINABLE take on those species that can withstand it. Now to your specific questions regarding Gray-bands. Firstly it is my opinion that Gray-bands will be here living in this world when humans are extinct by virtue of their habits and habitat. IMO Gray-bands should be white listed and allowed for commercial take. But maybe Box Turtles would have been a better example to address your questions?

Box Turtles are rapidly disappearing from much of Texas and in dire need of protection. While populations are very strong in parts of Texas, these pops would be considered the last stronghold in Texas. In this scenario it makes sense to protect that population from commercialization. They are easy targets for unscrupulous commercial collectors, an easy $50 or $100. This guy is on record saying all other threats to these species should be evaluated before limiting collection. That is a perfect example of the ME ME ME attitude of certain commercial collectors. What about the animals? It does not make sense that because they face other threats, one more threat won't hurt! That's why I continually bring up the box turtles, because it effectively illustrates the difference in philosophy.

Not only that, if you truly have a population that is in trouble, it's not the commercial collectors you want to send in there to gather stock for captive propagation efforts. This will have to be done by Zoos and Institutions, and accredited private facilities, not just anyone.

For the vast majority of species already established in captivity, it should be on a case by case basis. If a harvest is sustainable in reasonable numbers it should always be allowed IMO.

Captive propagation is key, but it can't take place without collection from the wild, but nowhere does it say that you can't have a particular species if it wasn't commercially collected. In your Gray-band example there are hundreds of Gray-band breeders. What is wrong with captive bred specimens if you can't get here to catch your own? And what about Mexican species that we can't import? If we hadn't reproduced those species in captivity from the few legally imported animals then I wouldn't have this cute little baby thayeri today.

>>By excluding commercial >>collection you have inadvertently (or >>maybe advertently) >>limited your support size to only local >>individuals plus a select few nationwide friends.

Our group is not for everyone but I don't view that as unfortunate. We are very focused on what we are doing, and we believe that we are very effective. We provide a valuable service for anyone that wishes to legally herp in Texas and doesn't own their own land. While we don't support collecting for the purpose of sale, we certainly aren't giving away any of those rights.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

All,

Superdave gets it. So do many others this go round. Hmmmmmmm. The folks who don't are really a small group. The boys on these forums think they represent a majority of folks and they don't. They think that their little world is the big world and it isn't. They just are the most active folks on these forums. Look at some of the other forums on this site and you will find these boys in most of them. What they don't get is that most folks don't even go on forums. What they also don't get is that most folks who support my views are never on forums to begin with. They are busy working. They don't have time to debate with the folks that frequent here. Further, after the unreasonable way I have been treated here why would they? There is no point in debating with them. They are closed minded and they have already surrendered to academia, AR groups and agency biologists. All they want to do is throw out insults. Let's do an experiment. Let's see if we get some insults to this post of mine. I got twenty bucks that says they will. Thanks again David.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Not an insult, just a couple of questions. If you and the folks who agree with you don't have time to be on forums because they have jobs, why are you here now, and how are they going to communicate on your new website? I think you have every right to state your opinions, as do we all, but we all should say, IMO, that it is just that. (IMO)
Memeber HCU-Tx

Look what I found the other day, I like to herp!

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Todd Hughes

I have some time to post. Remember, I am not a big time commercial person like many commercial folks. Or HCUers would have you believe. I don't have employees. I don't buy every herp people try and sell me. I am not out everyday trying to catch any herp I can. I am working on my breeders. Getting females ready to breed. I do worry that the commercial folks won't take the time needed. Hell, none of them probably read any of my posts here. Hince the small number of supporters I have here. This forum is frequented by recreational folks. The HCUers monitor all these forums. Any disenting opinion is quickly insulted and bullied out of the debate.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I've never seen a coral hood - didn't know they could do that!
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"And the rest is all in his head"

I think it was damaged by a prey item or predator. Hence the swelling, but it was duly noted. This is what I do, I have a job, have raised the kids, am expecting to be a grandpa any day now! My life has moved in another direction, I love to study herps and record the data, and share the info with you guys and gals. I spend an inordinate amount of time in the field doing so, but do not consider myself a recreational herper, although that is what I am. At this time I collate data and hope to have some papers out soon, but alas, I am not academia, so all my data will be annectdotal (meaningless) to academia. So, I would rather share good info to those who appreciate it!
Mike, I hope you get your breeders off the ground and enjoy the heck out of being a herper, it is a lot more fun when you can share the experience.

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Todd Hughes

Yeah, I kind of wondered if it had been injured, or had eaten something, but it looks so symmetrical that it almost seems normal.
I assume you didn't keep it to study/observe?
I wouldn't worry about academia - Hell look at Klauber's work with rattlesnakes
Congrats on being a grandfather!
Cheers,
Max
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"And the rest is all in his head"

I did not keep the specimen, I may check on it from time to time, and thanks Max, Christian Thomas Rich says hi to the world as of 4:00 a.m. yesterday! I got me a herpin' buddy!
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Todd Hughes