Reptile & Amphibian Forums

...found this little BRB on Sun. After waking up and leaving it alone for 24 hrs I re-examined the little snake. Definately not new born. It's much more colored and has no visible umbilical cord slit (what is that called anyway?). This poor thing has to be from the 07 little and they were born Aug 28. It is not okay. Its wobbly and disoriented, having difficult with it's front 1/3 or so "righting" it's balance. Rarely sticks it's tongue out. Showing no interest in a live fuzzy with multiple techniques. Too afraid to try a hopper, and really think that size is way too big for this emaciated snake. I want to force or tube feed it. I know this is stessfull, but don't think I have anything to lose and feel that nutrition is vitaley important in this situation. I am thinking of using a 5 1/2 french size rubber catheter to stomach tube it about 2cc of chicken baby food. The only ingredients of the food are ground chicken, water, and corn starch. It will have to be diluted down to pass through the catheter. What to ya'll think? I feel confident that I can do the procedure with less stress than forcing a pinkie down. I really don't want to puree a batch of mouse in my blender....just sounds disgusting.

Thanks, Linda

it was really easy. If this little snake survived so long, I want to give it a chance to be okay.

Thanks everyone.

I really hope it works out for you. Sounds like this one is a trooper and I hope it pulls through!
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Rachel Squier

1.1 '03? BRBs (Blaze and Shimmer)
1.0 '07 Albino BCI (Cupid)
0.2 '07 100% Het Albino BCIs (Lia and Suzie)
0.1 '07 DH Sunglow BCI (Daisy)

I would also think the tube feeding is less stressful on the snake. Maybe next time some Pediolyte as well to rehydrate it as well. I heard something about Ringers solution once but can't remember how it is procured and administered. Let us know how it turns out and if and when it poops what it looks like.

look here as well...

www.anapsid.org/emaciation.html

>>it was really easy. If this little snake survived so long, I want to give it a chance to be okay.
>>
>>Thanks everyone.

-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

I once fell from a 50' tree with many branches that slowed my decent and landed directly on my back on a large rock...

My best friend said...Dude are you ok ?...

I said...Give me 5 minutes...

"No sir...I didn't like it..." R&S.

LOL

Thanks for the link Frank. The whole tube feeding procedure took about 10 seconds and worked well. I read the article and think I will get some probiotics. Have used the Bene-Bac product for many kittens and puppies throughout the years and always thought the product didn't work as well as the live culture lactobacillus acidophilus that is refrigerated. If I remember correctly, the Ringers solution is made of a 1:1 ratio of lactated ringers solution and sterile water given IP. The suger in the Pediolyte seems to high to me for snakes primarily because of hearing of soaking animals in pediolyte/gatorade. I always think the body fluids would move towards the higher sugar therefore pulling more fluid out of the body. (that happens with non-isotonic administration of sub q fluids in mammals.)I'll try a bit in the mix though instead of water next feeding. I hope I only need to do this a few times until this snake will eat. This morning I can't tell if we're any stronger or not. That article also mentioned Hill's A/D diet and water, and I actually called there Vet Tech support yesterday and they said they couldn't answer questions on exotics.....which is weird because I found a formula in THEIR book that had chart's for the energy requirements for emaciated reptiles and amphibians. Hill's says daily energy requirement for snakes at 82 F is 11 kcal/kg to the 0.75 power. Guess I should have stayed in school, 'cause I don't remember how to do the powers. Just babbling.

Got my brain into forced thought mode, from buzzzzzzzzzz, lol...

Well I think the tube thing will do fine, I would want to use the best solution to rehydrate but am not exactly sure what that would be, I would use a little pediolyte most likely or some other solution, even sterile saline is an isotonic solution as well. Too bad you didn't breed corn snakes, they have a device called a pinkie pump or pinkie press. YUMMY...hehe. I stick at math as well, hummmm, barely paid attention, I hate math and am not that bright at it honestly. Powers, hummmm, 10 to the second power is 100. I think lol....I really do not feel like looking it up, just use a squirt of the stuff HAHA.

I do actually prefer to be VERY precise when administering anything with the most accurate dose documented and or empirically derived ones from mammalian data when available.

But I have used a pinch here and there as well over the years to rehab critters.
==============================================================
Math for Morons Like Us

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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

I once fell from a 50' tree with many branches that slowed my decent and landed directly on my back on a large rock...

My best friend said...Dude are you ok ?...

I said...Give me 5 minutes...

"No sir...I didn't like it..." R&S.

LOL

I found a scientific calculator online and 11 kcal/kg to the 0.75 power is about 6.04010535... kcal/kg. Hope this helps and the best of luck to you and the little one.
-----
Rachel Squier

1.1 '03? BRBs (Blaze and Shimmer)
1.0 '07 Albino BCI (Cupid)
0.2 '07 100% Het Albino BCIs (Lia and Suzie)
0.1 '07 DH Sunglow BCI (Daisy)

Thanks a bunch. Definately helpful.

They make veterinary grade electrolytes that you can put in water. Yes pediolyte is to high in sugar for the snakes, but if you can get her some electrolytes that would be good. We used to give them to our horses when we took them on long rides in the south. They come in a powder form. Just ask your vet for them, or search the web. It would be much better than pediolyte or gatorade. Good Luck! You've got a trooper!

Feeding a dehydrated animal can kill it. The body doesnt really absorb liquid for digestion from the stomach, it pulls it from the cells. Feeding a dehydrated animal can actually make the situation worse.

Go get some ringers and start a hydrating schedule. You can get a catheter tip for a syringe and send the ringers down that way. Its probably a little less stressful than tubing, but if it doesnt mind the tubing, that's the best route. Make sure the ringers is warmed, its less stressful. No microwave and dont warm the entire bag, just draw it into a syringe and put a hot water bottle on top.

I'd go every 3-4 hours around the clock for 24 hours. See where the animal is at this point, then decide what to do for hydration from there. It can take a few weeks for the body to level out after dehyration so you'll want to give fluids and supportive care of some kind for at least 7 days, possibly longer.

It probably goes without saying that you'd want to encourage or even force warm soaking at this point. Heck, I may even soak in warm ringers, its not going to hurt!

Good luck.

Thanks,
I've got a bag of Lactated Ringer's here at the house. I will employ some of what you have suggested, but am confused about what you said. First, if I understood this correctly, you say that it's body isn't able to absorb from the stomach, then you said the Ringer's could be given that way. Also when you mention ringer's are you speaking of the Lactated Ringer's Injection for iv use in humans, etc?

The body isnt able to absorb the liquid in a food based diet so giving liquified food will not do anything to combat dehydration. For instance, if you took carnivore care and mixed it with pedialyte or ringers to make it very soupy, then stuck it down your snake, you'd logically assume that this would be helping with hydration. Not necessarily. The body will ignore that liquid and pull liquid from the cells to aid in digestion, then your snake's body will largely ignore the liquid you added with the meal. It doesnt seem to make sense, but that's how it happens, many a novice wildlife rehabber has lost the critical ones by feeding before hydration has been re-established.

Now, if you just put liquid down into the belly, you're not asking your snake's body to digest anything so the liquid will be absorbed by the intestines better. A lot will still pass, that's why you need to put your baby on a hydration schedule and stick to it, even when you see progress. Sub-q ringers is ideal, but can you go that route with your little one? If you can, by all means do so.

Severe dehydration will have massive effects on kidney and liver values, this can take quite some time to level out, even when visible signs of appropriate hydration are present. Continued fluid support will keep these organs working to flush out the built up toxins caused by the dehydration so its important to pick a schedule in the beginning and really stick to it.

I use lactated ringers in the IV bag for all of my hydration needs. I dont even bother with the unflavored pedialyte or powdered electrolytes anymore, ringers is obviously good for sub-q, but its also perfect sending through their stomach. I've never soaked a snake in ringers, but what the heck, I cant imagin it hurting them.

Good luck, it sounds like your baby is in really rough shape. Hopefully in 72 hours time you'll see some signs of improvement.

I understand what you've said. Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge with me. I'll step up the program and give it a go.

Linda

gfx,
....When you say ringers are you talking about ringers solution
which is 8.6 gm sodium chloride, 0.3 gm potassium chloride, and 0.33 gram calcium chloride dissolved per litre of sterile water or do you mean LACTATED ringers solution which is the same except for the addition of some sodium lactate? I have used both and also plain water and normal saline to hydrate snakes and do not have an educated opinion on which is best. My gut (no pun intended) feeling is that the lactate is probably inappropriate for snakes. Snakes do not usually devour sugars but sugars are produced as an intermediate step in the Krebs cycle in all animals including snakes as one of the many steps converting the protein and fat that they do typically eat into ATP for energy production at the cellular level. What is your opinion on this and why?
Thanks,
Jeff

>>Feeding a dehydrated animal can kill it. The body doesnt really absorb liquid for digestion from the stomach, it pulls it from the cells. Feeding a dehydrated animal can actually make the situation worse.
>>
>>Go get some ringers and start a hydrating schedule. You can get a catheter tip for a syringe and send the ringers down that way. Its probably a little less stressful than tubing, but if it doesnt mind the tubing, that's the best route. Make sure the ringers is warmed, its less stressful. No microwave and dont warm the entire bag, just draw it into a syringe and put a hot water bottle on top.
>>
>>I'd go every 3-4 hours around the clock for 24 hours. See where the animal is at this point, then decide what to do for hydration from there. It can take a few weeks for the body to level out after dehyration so you'll want to give fluids and supportive care of some kind for at least 7 days, possibly longer.
>>
>>It probably goes without saying that you'd want to encourage or even force warm soaking at this point. Heck, I may even soak in warm ringers, its not going to hurt!
>>
>>Good luck.

>>gfx,
>>....When you say ringers are you talking about ringers solution
>>which is 8.6 gm sodium chloride, 0.3 gm potassium chloride, and 0.33 gram calcium chloride dissolved per litre of sterile water or do you mean LACTATED ringers solution which is the same except for the addition of some sodium lactate? I have used both and also plain water and normal saline to hydrate snakes and do not have an educated opinion on which is best. My gut (no pun intended) feeling is that the lactate is probably inappropriate for snakes. Snakes do not usually devour sugars but sugars are produced as an intermediate step in the Krebs cycle in all animals including snakes as one of the many steps converting the protein and fat that they do typically eat into ATP for energy production at the cellular level. What is your opinion on this and why?
>>Thanks,
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>>>>Feeding a dehydrated animal can kill it. The body doesnt really absorb liquid for digestion from the stomach, it pulls it from the cells. Feeding a dehydrated animal can actually make the situation worse.
>>>>
>>>>Go get some ringers and start a hydrating schedule. You can get a catheter tip for a syringe and send the ringers down that way. Its probably a little less stressful than tubing, but if it doesnt mind the tubing, that's the best route. Make sure the ringers is warmed, its less stressful. No microwave and dont warm the entire bag, just draw it into a syringe and put a hot water bottle on top.
>>>>
>>>>I'd go every 3-4 hours around the clock for 24 hours. See where the animal is at this point, then decide what to do for hydration from there. It can take a few weeks for the body to level out after dehyration so you'll want to give fluids and supportive care of some kind for at least 7 days, possibly longer.
>>>>
>>>>It probably goes without saying that you'd want to encourage or even force warm soaking at this point. Heck, I may even soak in warm ringers, its not going to hurt!
>>>>
>>>>Good luck.
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

I once fell from a 50' tree with many branches that slowed my decent and landed directly on my back on a large rock...

My best friend said...Dude are you ok ?...

I said...Give me 5 minutes...

"No sir...I didn't like it..." R&S.

LOL

>>>>gfx,
>>>>....When you say ringers are you talking about ringers solution
>>>>which is 8.6 gm sodium chloride, 0.3 gm potassium chloride, and 0.33 gram calcium chloride dissolved per litre of sterile water or do you mean LACTATED ringers solution which is the same except for the addition of some sodium lactate? I have used both and also plain water and normal saline to hydrate snakes and do not have an educated opinion on which is best. My gut (no pun intended) feeling is that the lactate is probably inappropriate for snakes. Snakes do not usually devour sugars but sugars are produced as an intermediate step in the Krebs cycle in all animals including snakes as one of the many steps converting the protein and fat that they do typically eat into ATP for energy production at the cellular level. What is your opinion on this and why?
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Jeff
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Feeding a dehydrated animal can kill it. The body doesnt really absorb liquid for digestion from the stomach, it pulls it from the cells. Feeding a dehydrated animal can actually make the situation worse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Go get some ringers and start a hydrating schedule. You can get a catheter tip for a syringe and send the ringers down that way. Its probably a little less stressful than tubing, but if it doesnt mind the tubing, that's the best route. Make sure the ringers is warmed, its less stressful. No microwave and dont warm the entire bag, just draw it into a syringe and put a hot water bottle on top.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'd go every 3-4 hours around the clock for 24 hours. See where the animal is at this point, then decide what to do for hydration from there. It can take a few weeks for the body to level out after dehyration so you'll want to give fluids and supportive care of some kind for at least 7 days, possibly longer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It probably goes without saying that you'd want to encourage or even force warm soaking at this point. Heck, I may even soak in warm ringers, its not going to hurt!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Good luck.
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Frank Roberts
>>Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research
>>
>>I once fell from a 50' tree with many branches that slowed my decent and landed directly on my back on a large rock...
>>
>>My best friend said...Dude are you ok ?...
>>
>>I said...Give me 5 minutes...
>>
>>"No sir...I didn't like it..." R&S.
>>
>>LOL

>

>>>
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

I once fell from a 50' tree with many branches that slowed my decent and landed directly on my back on a large rock...

My best friend said...Dude are you ok ?...

I said...Give me 5 minutes...

"No sir...I didn't like it..." R&S.

LOL

Hi Jeff,

I've used both, but I tend to keep lactated ringers around these days. Sodium lactate is a useful addition to the ringers in that it helps neutralize acidosis and helps the body regulate probable acidic ph levels in the kidneys. Dehydration often walks hand in hand with some degree of renal failure, I like lactated ringers because it gives me a better chance of that not being a permanent condition.

You make a good point tho, the addition of sodium lactate seems unnecessary at best and perhaps even entirely inappropriate. IMO, when you get an animal in that's so badly dehydrated/emaciated that its wobbly, you're very likely to have kidney and/or liver issues. Given the state of the animal, IMO its more critical to re-establish hydration and combat any potentially life threatening toxicity for the first 24-48 hours than it is to worry about throwing off the ATP any further than it already is.

Rehydration is a short term process, reintroducing food to the system in small ratios is the next step. If the animal can make it through the first 48 hours, its body will be alot more likely to handle the addition of foods.

copy paste it in notepad for reference...

Rehydration is a short term process, reintroducing food to the system in small ratios is the next step. If the animal can make it through the first 48 hours, its body will be alot more likely to handle the addition of foods.

-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

I once fell from a 50' tree with many branches that slowed my decent and landed directly on my back on a large rock...

My best friend said...Dude are you ok ?...

I said...Give me 5 minutes...

"No sir...I didn't like it..." R&S.

LOL

Jeff,
I am using LRS and it seems to be doing the trick. I didn't think ringer's was available anymore. I'll check when I get to work today. Maybe that would be better. More later...I need to replace a cable for my internet to work at home, should get it done tonight.

>>gfx,
>>....When you say ringers are you talking about ringers solution
>>which is 8.6 gm sodium chloride, 0.3 gm potassium chloride, and 0.33 gram calcium chloride dissolved per litre of sterile water or do you mean LACTATED ringers solution which is the same except for the addition of some sodium lactate? I have used both and also plain water and normal saline to hydrate snakes and do not have an educated opinion on which is best. My gut (no pun intended) feeling is that the lactate is probably inappropriate for snakes. Snakes do not usually devour sugars but sugars are produced as an intermediate step in the Krebs cycle in all animals including snakes as one of the many steps converting the protein and fat that they do typically eat into ATP for energy production at the cellular level. What is your opinion on this and why?
>>Thanks,
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>>>>Feeding a dehydrated animal can kill it. The body doesnt really absorb liquid for digestion from the stomach, it pulls it from the cells. Feeding a dehydrated animal can actually make the situation worse.
>>>>
>>>>Go get some ringers and start a hydrating schedule. You can get a catheter tip for a syringe and send the ringers down that way. Its probably a little less stressful than tubing, but if it doesnt mind the tubing, that's the best route. Make sure the ringers is warmed, its less stressful. No microwave and dont warm the entire bag, just draw it into a syringe and put a hot water bottle on top.
>>>>
>>>>I'd go every 3-4 hours around the clock for 24 hours. See where the animal is at this point, then decide what to do for hydration from there. It can take a few weeks for the body to level out after dehyration so you'll want to give fluids and supportive care of some kind for at least 7 days, possibly longer.
>>>>
>>>>It probably goes without saying that you'd want to encourage or even force warm soaking at this point. Heck, I may even soak in warm ringers, its not going to hurt!
>>>>
>>>>Good luck.

If you want to try to kick start its feeding responce, try getting mice and cutting off there tails, you can easly slide teh tail down the throat of a snake, it wont be tons of nutrition, but it will be some, and sometimes it can kick start them into feeding on there own, i just hope the little guy isnt too weak
-----
Russ
0.1 Australian Shepherd
1.0 Basset Hound
1.2 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
1.0 Columbian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Guyana Red-Tail Boa
0.1 Pastel Salmon Boa
1.1 Hog Island Boas
0.1 Rosy Boa
2.6 leopard Geckos
0.1 Sandfire Beardy
0.0.1 White Throat
Melbourne, Fl

I may do a leg. It doesn't bother me to do that, just the blender thing. Maybe I should buy a pinkie pump for situations like this.

>>If you want to try to kick start its feeding responce, try getting mice and cutting off there tails, you can easly slide teh tail down the throat of a snake, it wont be tons of nutrition, but it will be some, and sometimes it can kick start them into feeding on there own, i just hope the little guy isnt too weak
>>-----
>>Russ
>>0.1 Australian Shepherd
>>1.0 Basset Hound
>>1.2 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
>>1.0 Columbian Rainbow Boa
>>1.0 Guyana Red-Tail Boa
>>0.1 Pastel Salmon Boa
>>1.1 Hog Island Boas
>>0.1 Rosy Boa
>>2.6 leopard Geckos
>>0.1 Sandfire Beardy
>>0.0.1 White Throat
>>Melbourne, Fl