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AGAINST THE PROPOSED BANNING OF WILDLIFE POSSESSION, SALES, EXCHANGE, IMPORTATION, ETC. IN THE STATE OF MISSOURI, EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIVE THERE. IT WORKS JUST LIKE THE ELECTIONS AND WE DON'T WANT TO LOSE ANOTHER STATE!
LINK............. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/stop-missouri-house-bill-1847-urgent
Thanks.

>>AGAINST THE PROPOSED BANNING OF WILDLIFE POSSESSION, SALES, EXCHANGE, IMPORTATION, ETC. IN THE STATE OF MISSOURI, EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIVE THERE. IT WORKS JUST LIKE THE ELECTIONS AND WE DON'T WANT TO LOSE ANOTHER STATE!
>>LINK............. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/stop-missouri-house-bill-1847-urgent

Does this petition get forwarded to/read by anyone in the legislative process?
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Yes, and if the people that continue to sit and complain for hours on end on the internet about this sort of legislation being passed would simply take 10 minutes to fill out the form and sign the petition, they would be accomplishing alot more than they do just talking about it. Everybody needs to stop playing the armchair warrior and actually do something, especially now that the computers/internet has made it so easy. There have only been six signatures added since I posted the link yesterday and there are probably hundreds or maybe even thousands of people on this site. That is sad. SIGN THE PETITION, FOLKS !!!!
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~Dawn

I agree. Thats why I donated to PIJAC instead of taking 10 minutes to sign a petition that won't do anything! Been there and tried that.
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

Tim,

PIJAC only has the resources to work on a certain number of issues per year. Bill Brant (Director of Reptiles for PIJAC) told me that there was close to 19,000 different pieces of pet related legislation last year at the international, federal, state and local level. PIJAC was asked to help fight all the TX laws of the past year and they decided to pass. They only have the resources to fight the legislation with the biggest potential impact. I will bet they are not working on the proposed MO laws but I could be wrong. We are lucky they are willing to go to bat for us on the python situation. The bottom line is that herp folks need to have their own national organization with state and local chapters that fight for ALL herpers rights.

I would take the time to do all I can to help our fellow herpers in MO and not make excuses why I couldn't. Can you explain why you think this petition is so bad? I don't know how effective petitions are. I would think that we should, also, be contacting the legislators up there. I requested that information from the folks in MO and I hope they post it soon.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I can see their chain of logic: The restrictions on large constrictors and exotic venomous that were being proposed were arguably not unreasonable in comparison to many passed in other states. And the other issue, the road herping ban, they probably considered to be a local issue, and a rather silly one at that-which moreover had little effect on their own constituency. At the time, it looked certain that Texas herpers would defeat it (and we would have without the chicanery of a certain representative).

I agree, if there were a national organization which truly represented the interests of the private herpers, and was science-based and conservation-oriented, that would be a good thing. So far, HCU is the only existing candidate that fits this bill, and there is beginning to be some interest in opening new chapters in other states. Eventually a national HCU will evolve as more such chapters accumulate.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Brad and All,

There are some TX issues you failed to recognize. First, of all the turtle breeders got screwed. The hype and propaganda of shutting down the Asian turtle market coupled with the hype and propaganda pushed by the AR like group The Box Turtle Coalition ended up ONLY harming the turtle breeders and collectors. The Asian food market is still getting their turtles. At the present time turtle breeders can’t breed their turtles or acquire new blood. PIJAC and recreational groups dropped the ball on that one. The Black and White List are horribly flawed regulations as well. Outlawing captive reproduction of any species is wrong. Making it illegal to commerce in common species like the eastern garter snake and others is ridiculous. Where were PIJAC and the recreational groups when it came to the Black and White List?

Recreational groups do not support the rights of ALL herpers so they can NEVER be a national group that protects the rights of ALL herpers. The stances they take in regards to the sale of wild caught, and the buying and selling of imported animals makes them counterproductive to the herp industry as a whole. Denying the economic realities of the herp industry, by recreational groups, only alienates the commercial interests. Recreational herpers, who by supporting the slippery slope of AR group like academics and regulatory biologists, only helps their agenda in taking away the rights and privileges of law abiding, tax paying citizens. They, most definitely, are not the answer the herp industry needs.

Herps can be sustainably harvested. Most herp species are so difficult to find in number that collecting for any reason is not an issue. The amount that can be sustainably harvested is the amount that can be sustainably harvested…..period! It doesn’t matter what you do with those animals after they are harvested as far as wild populations are concerned…..period! Those are the facts and that is the reality. The recreational folks could be trying to close the market so they can reap all the benefits. There are a whole host of reasons why we should keep the sale of wild caught open. The main reason being it doesn’t cause any harm to populations in most cases. In the few cases that it does acceptable bag limits based on real, geographically relevant science can determine that number and NOT AR group biased scientists and uninformed recreational folks brown nosing these decision-makers. I do think we need to work with decision-makers I just don’t think we need to agree with everything they put forth. Do you recognize how they started with the turtle folks with the apparent support of the recreational snake folks? Beware my friends beware.

The bottom line is that recreational herp groups DO NOT in any way represent the herp industry as a whole and never can with their current constitutional stances…period!

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Mike,
I agree with you on the White List/Black List.
WHOEVER, or whomever put this list together has either ZERO knowledge of herps OR, contributed to TPWD for their OWN personal gain. It makes me sick to think that herpers actually worked with TPWD on this list.
I would like to know who contributed to this list, but I can't get an answer from TPWD. Perhaps someone can email me a list so I can post it on my website of people to avoid.

Randal Berry

Three things-first, the turtle regs and the black and white list were in place BEFORE HCU was formed. Both proceeded forward without our input. By mentioning them, you are attempting to imply that HCU supported these regulations. Such is definitely NOT the case!

Second-As stated before, despite Mike's obfuscation, HCU SUPPORTS the sustainable take of wild caught herps by non-commercial private herpers. We do not OPPOSE reasonable take by commercial collectors, provided such is carried out in a sustainable manner under proper seasons and bag limits. Unlike the case with individual private collectors (who only take an occasional animal for breeding stock or captive observation), some of the methods used by Commercial collectors have the potential to seriously harm local herp populations. These methods include drift fences, funnel traps, seining of ponds, and even gassing of den sites.

You can see from the above that there is a clear difference between the wants and needs of private herpers and commercial collectors. This is why they will never see eye-to-eye, and why both need their own lobbying organizations.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Brad and All,

A response to your three things:

1. The president of HCU and several other members have voiced their support for the turtle regulations and the White and Black List on many forums but most notably The Field Herp Forum. Look back over Gerald Merker’s end of the year Lampropeltis post. I am not implying anything. I am stating the fact that HCU supports these regulations after the fact. If what you say is true then what is HCU doing to get them rescinded?

2. The mixing of ambiguous words and positions. Can’t you make it simple? Do you support the right to sell wild caught or not? Well the answer is sometimes, if our members want to do it. Like when vice president Troy H. had wild caught herps for sale on Kingsnake.com. So you admit you SUPPORT collecting by non-commercial folks but at the same time you do not OPPOSE reasonable take by commercial folks? Your Constitution states that you do not support the sale of wild caught herps for the purposes of sale. That, basically says you do not support the right to sell wild caught. What you are trying to do is walk a thin line and be ambiguous. Also who polices your organization? How do you know if members are not buying and selling wild caught? As long as they don’t admit they are commercial they are okay, right? It is confusing and ambiguous at best and it allows for folks to cheat. Imagine this, I go collecting and I catch some stuff that I think I want to work with or at least I convince myself in my mind I do. Then I get home and I decide, well, maybe, I don’t want to work with this species after all. And that trip cost me a lot of money so I will just sell that stuff I DIDN’T PURPOSELY CATCH TO SELL. I am clear right? My purpose was to keep it but I changed my mind.

Please show me how using drift fences and funnel traps over-harvests herps? What paper does that come from? What are the over-harvest amounts for each species? I can see the ecological damage of gassing dens and possibly seining ponds (disturbing and damaging the bottom) but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be allowed to collect and sell herps in a sustainable manner.

3. What you continually fail to realize is I am not a commercial collector in the historical use of the words. I collect for breeding stock just like you guys. I just try to offset costs by catching additional herps, in a sustainable manner, to help other hobbyists, researchers and etc., acquire animals. There is nothing wrong with that. I am not depleting populations. I paid for my right to do that when I purchased my Nongame Commercial Dealer’s license. If you guys would just be clear it would be an open and shut case but your not.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Mike,

I'd like to address your concerns point by point (please bear in mind that the following is only my own personal "take" and is not in any way meant to speak for the entirety of HCU and its membership):

1. The president of HCU and several other members have voiced their support for the turtle regulations and the White and Black List on many forums but most notably The Field Herp Forum. Look back over Gerald Merker’s end of the year Lampropeltis post. I am not implying anything. I am stating the fact that HCU supports these regulations after the fact. If what you say is true then what is HCU doing to get them rescinded?

HCU does support SOME turtle regulations-including the exception for hobby breeding now in the works. The situation that formerly obtained of literally untold thousands of native Texas chelonians being trapped and shipped to asian food markets was just flatly unacceptable. That said, the present regs were arrived at before HCU existed. We will be working on revisions to improve them in future-if you were a member you could keep abreast of these things more readily

2. The mixing of ambiguous words and positions. So you admit you SUPPORT collecting by non-commercial folks but at the same time you do not OPPOSE reasonable take by commercial folks? Your Constitution states that you do not support the sale of wild caught herps for the purposes of sale. That, basically says you do not support the right to sell wild caught. What you are trying to do is walk a thin line and be ambiguous.

No ambiguity whatsoever. Our position is crystal clear-HCU "DOES NOT SUPPORT" the collection of wild herps for commercial sale. That means that it is not our purpose to be a lobbying organization for commercial collectors. Our job is to work to protect the interests of private herp hobbyists. We also do not actively oppose (in principle) the commercial collection of herps-but reserve the right to do so if such collection is shown to be unsustainable-in other words, would harm herp populations. HCU will always put the well-being of the wild populations first and foremost. But we also think that too often regulations are poorly conceived and reflect institutional biases more than any concern for the resource. That's why we insist that all regulations be science-based.

Now my own personal opinion-from talking with govmnt. officials and state wildlife people over the last several years: Commercial collecting is on it's way out in this country. Many states already ban it, and more will follow. The best we can do is eke out a place for the hobby to continue with captive born animals and a limited influx of wc animals from individual "hobby" collectors. If we insist on keeping commercial mass collection of wild animals, we could well lose everything. But this is just my opinion.

Also who polices your organization? How do you know if members are not buying and selling wild caught?

We make no attempt to "police" our members. Members are free to follow their own conscience. But I would venture that anyone who wished to make substantial money on commercial collection would PROBABLY not choose to join an organization such as HCU...

Please show me how using drift fences and funnel traps over-harvests herps?

I did not say that-I said it has that POTENTIAL. And it clearly does.

3. What you continually fail to realize is I am not a commercial collector in the historical use of the words. I collect for breeding stock just like you guys. I just try to offset costs by catching additional herps, in a sustainable manner, to help other hobbyists, researchers and etc., acquire animals.

By my own count, at one random point last Summer, you were running more than two dozen ads on the KS classifieds listing wild caught animals for sale to the public. To me, that is a commercial collector in the classic sense. But as far as I'm concerned, more power to you! As long as you do so legally. The problem with you, Mike, is that you interpret anyone who fails to support your activities as a form of attack-thus your almost mindless opposition to HCU, which under its own Costitution CANNOT support your activities as a commercial collector. This is sad, since you are a very persistent and energetic personality, and could be a big asset in what is becoming a very tough and long-term fight here in Texas.

Best regards,

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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

OK. Before you explain to us what is not acceptable, I have obtained through the Freedom of Information Act a copy of the USF&W export log Arlington TX for May 2007 and six months back. I also have the results from the 2006 TP&W Commercial Non-game reports. Neither of which support your claim.
Before you go off making these grand statements, that what you heard is true, I suggest you check your facts.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Ok I'm not sure what claim you mean-if you're saying there was no problem with Texas turtles being exported by the truckload for asian food markets-then by all means I'd like to hear your evidence to the contrary!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

The only turtles that were being sent to Asia for the meat market by the truck load, as you put it, are still being shipped to the Asian meat market by the truck load.
I will send you the documentation I have. It will prove, that in fact, most of the turtles were being trans-shipped from other states and other countries to countries all over the world as "Pets". It will also prove that the majority were captive born hatchlings/juveniles. They simply did not want to listen to the facts. The facts did not fit their agenda.
I'll copy the documents to a file and make them available to all that may want them. How about that?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John,

Believe me, I'd welcome that if it is true. But what of that "certain individual" who was running turtle trapping seminars all over, and facilitating transshipment of turtles to Asia? From what I hear from some of the big "turtle people" in Texas (Ron Tremper and others), one of the major problems with the new turtle regs was that TPW left a big "private waters" loophole that allows this guy and his trappers to continue to operate....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

What I'd like to see is a list of the people who helped T F & P so I can make sure everyone knows who they are and to make sure I NEVER but anything from them.
Michael Luhrs

Brad,

I suspected that this was the case as well. The records and data were skewed to push an agenda. I knew that there was no way that 84,000 (or whatever the number was) turtles were being wild caught and shipped out. I knew that a good majority of them had to be captive born red-eared sliders from LA. This is what agenda pushing academics do, they twist and skew things to fit agendas. Take Michael Smith and Tim Cole’s Box Turtle Partnership group, one of their propaganda papers had a statement similar to this: “TPWD data indicated that last year 804 box turtles were collected in Texas. This included three different subspecies. The USFWS export data indicated that 84,000 turtles were exported last year to the Asian turtle market.” I couldn’t find the exact quote but you can see how the sentences are structured to inflate the problem and mislead. It leads people to believe that 84,000 box turtles were exported not turtles of all species.

The Bayou Bob argument is a good one. He contends that he was catching turtles out of man-made bodies of water on private land and that ranchers didn’t want the turtles in them. And that the ranch hands would use them for target practice if he didn’t remove them. He further states, turtles never occurred on these private lands before and it was only because of these man-made bodies of water that they were there in the first place. Thus they are not natural populations. So he defines them as nuisance turtles. I don’t know how much of that is true but that was the argument.

You should be skeptical about everything academics and TPWD says. There goal is to protect herps at all costs. Have you heard about all the cases of academics falsifying data? Usually, this is related to continuing to get grant funding. But it wouldn’t surprise me if many of the turtle academics were skewing and twisting over fear of the trade to China. Not that they shouldn’t have concern. But we need to be concerned about how they react and how those reactions affect all of us.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Data skewing definitely happens-and we should beware of it. We need our own studies. I wouldn't however blame Tim for being misleading-both those statements are factual, and if someone doesn't interpret them properly it is not his fault. It looks to be a good thing that we already plan to revisit the turtle regs.

I have to say I am not comfortable with Texas turtles going to feed the insatiable teeming masses of Asia, regardless of Bayou Bob's attempted justifications. Until the new regs, he had no qualms about removing those turtles from public waters (and they are still coming out of public waters in other states). Moreover, the loophole also allows turtles taken from public water to be "laundered" as private-water turtles.....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Is Mike Smith and Tim Coles paper available?
I sure would like to see it.
Randal

Check out the website at http://www.btpt.org/.
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

I wrote a paper that is at the BTPT site and also the website of the Gulf Coast Turtle & Tortoise Society, and the Texas collection numbers I provided were at the subspecies level, from TPWD data. I didn't cite any export data concerning the thousands of turtles shipped in the food/medicine trade.

The allegation that Tim and I conflated box turtle collection numbers with USFWS export data is ridiculous. The BTPT has always been careful to be accurate.

I can't think of a single one of us among Box Turtle Partnership of Texas leadership who could be considered an "animal rights" person. We represent several herpetological societies, nature centers, and one university.

Michael Smith

Michael and All,

Like I said we couldn't find the exact quote. Maybe it was from the Box Turtle petition? None-the-less it was misleading in the way it was written and that was the point. Not that the numbers were false but since I can't find it I can not argue the point. Maybe it wasn't even authored by you but quoted your stuff.

I find the entire Box Turtle Partnership's agenda in regards to shutting down box turtle folks AR like. To push to ban anything and be happy with the regs of the past year to me is ARish. To be proud that TPWD took away the rights of folks who do not over-collect and who take good care of their turtles was uncalled for. There are only two things that a box turtle group who is not AR like should be concerned with when it comes to herpers and that is over-collection and quality of care.

The harvest numbers the BTPT presented did not prove anything. They did not show decline in BT populations in TX. It was assumed by extracting OPINION from other sources throughout the US. Then these assumptions were used to promote an AR like campaign to push an agenda. There are countless assumptions and agenda pushing in the box turtle literature base. The assumption that the removal of one female can decimate a population is totally ridiculous. Box turtles have been harvested by native Americans for centuries and they are still here. Box turtles have been predated since the beginning of time and they are still here. The BTPT uses fear tactics to promote their agenda. You can't take one or the populations will collapse is hogwash. These are the kinds of AR like stances the BTPT promotes.

Apparently you do not even see where you and your colleagues actions are AR like and that is the saddest point of all.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I would hate to get caught up in trying to respond to every inaccuracy that comes along, but I do want to respond to this.

I have not said that taking one female would cause a population to collapse, and my recommendation, along with that of the BTPT, has always been to allow some minimal personal collection (we discourage personal collection, but have never proposed a total ban).

As to your assertion that we relied on "opinion" (like getting our information from the National Enquirer!), I would only suggest that other readers take just a little time and look for themselves, as opposed to jumping on some bandwagon about us being inaccurate fearmongers. The BTPT has not waged a "fear" campaign.

You mention native Americans taking box turtles "and they're still here." My understanding from several sources is that the reason for the absence of eastern box turtles in parts of New York is due to unsustainable use by Native Americans (shells used in ceremonies are found, so they used to be there, but not now).

All of us in BTPT know that there are numerous threats to box turtles, and overcollection is only one. Habitat loss and fragmentation as well as road mortality have got to be major threats. That does not mean that overcollection does not have an impact.

Michael Smith

There are holes in most of the scientific papers on box turtles.
Most of the papers make statments and conclusions that way overstretch the data in them.

The McKeever Center papers for instance were done using donated pet box turtles and rehab box turtles so those studies are scewed and yet they are being used to run laws through in other States on other species and subspecies of box turtles.
It takes a few years before most relocated box turtles even start to act normal. So the findings there are not justified in being used as a guide on making laws and consevation rules.
We don't even know for sure if all of those turtles were full blooded Eastern box turtles or if they could have been hybrids from other areas.
The papers from there say that the males have trouble finding the females if there is not a real high population density, but the eggs layed that he took inside and incubated had a good hatch rate. So I think the males found the female just find.
Also even though he said the females retain sperm they loose fertility over time, this is true but a male only has to breed them once every few years anyway. The males also smell the ground and find the nesting spots and hang out there to breed the females. Most of the information is made out to work against reptile keepers, so it is always going to get interpreted in there favor and against the reptile keepers.

As for the Iroquois paper or papers, it said that the Iroquois are responsable for the extirpation of the box turtles in the Western area near New York. But, the Iroquois lived over a larger area all the way west to the Great Lakes and the box turtles did not go extinct over most of the range were the Iroquois lived. They could have got those shells by trade too. But this little area West of New York still has no box turtles more than 200 years after the Iroquois have gone from there.
This makes me wonder if there could be another reason for them not being there? We ned to be careful we don't miss the real reason just to hurt herpers. Plus Native Americans collected box turtles over all of the box turtle range according to fossil records.
This little area West of New York is less than 1% of the box turtles historic range so why didn't they go extinct over the other 99% of the range they were being collected in?
To me the over all bigger fossil record picture shows collection is sustainable.
Even on the Barrier Islands of Florida were Native Americans lived and used box turtles, they did not go extinct. There would be low to no recruitment of emigrants from the main land so again the fossil record here shows collection is sustainable.

As for the fragmented habitat and road kills ( I would add fire ants and other things too) being a stress factor on populations. This is no reason to stop collection for captive breeding purposes. It is if anything a reason to get some of these population into breeding projects.
Making hands off laws never in itself saves the species as some gene pools have gone extinct while under protection.
Genetic diversity not only on a species level but even in one gene pool is important. Captive propogation can be a safty net against loosing genes. This is something the people that grow plants know and practice.

Captive propogation never caused an extinction as making more animals of any species is not decline and is conservation. Shutting down breeders is not a good conservasion plan.
Academics needs to work more with herpers and not always against them just for the sake that they are reptile keepers.

I am not for mass collection and think bag limits and other regs are a good thing so long as they are well thought out and written. But, since Biologist are not going to be able to save all of the gene pools before they go extince due to development and fire ants and so on, stopping captive breeding and not allowing people to collect at least a few animals from other populations for breeding purposes is a bad thing.

Also not to say BTPT is all bad but yes you guys did use the Asian food market scare to hype people up to get them to sign a petition to get the box turtles in Texas put on the black list. At first TP&W was going to make us get rid of all except six turtles and not be able to breed the ones we had left!!!!!
You guys nearly waisted 30 years of my work and destroyed a very old collection with a lot of captive born and raised adults in it. Eric

That's a new one. I grew up wandering the ranch lands of south texas as a kid and never heard of turtles being referred to "nuissance turtles". Rattlesnakes yes, water moccasins yes alligators yes. I might buy the texas tortoise being called a pest(although I never heard that in tx.) for digging holes but to be honest with you there are a lot more rabbit and badger holes out there than there are tortoise holes and come too think of it I'm not one hundred percent sure the texas toroises actually dig there own holes or if they just use abandoned rabbit holes as I don't ever remember ever seeing what I now recognize as gopher tortoise holes here in fl as a kid in tx. and I spent ALL my free time in the brush herping hunting or fishing. For God's sake I've even heard of ranchers who don't like mesquite trees because they think they suck up all the ground water. I've heard ranchers accuse prickly pears of being a pest although considering I spent more time with their cows than they did I can tell you prickly pears get a bad rap their cows love them and they don't hurt them as much as ranchers think they do. But Nuissance turtles that's a new one on me.

>>He further states, turtles never occurred on these private lands before and it was only because of these man-made bodies of water that they were there in the first place. Thus they are not natural populations. So he defines them as nuisance turtles.
>>
>>Mike Welker
>>El Paso, TX
>>

Mike, let me educate you on this little bit of propaganda that you are spewing. Prior to the arrival of ranchers in Texas, there were natural creeks and springs everywhere in Texas. Hell, S. Texas from all historical accounts had them everywhere. Now, thanks to tapping ground water like its going out of style, most natural springs, and creeks around the state have dried up. Texas has only one natural lake (Caddo). So besides Caddo every lake in Texas is manmade. Based on your argument then, Turtles should be fair game on every lake in Texas (minus Caddo). Turtles have nowhere else to go other than ponds since we have altered their environment so much. These ponds are the sole remaining water source left on these lands that once had naturally flowing creeks on them. So your argument is puro mierda.
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Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas
Herp Conservation Unlimited

Jason,

You obviously have a hard time with reading and comprehension. I was relaying what I read in an article concerning the position of the "Bayou Bob" camp. Not relaying any facts as I saw them. Trying to find any way to discredit me or make me look bad? Or one up me with your extensive knowledge?

You seem to have a better grasp on the water history of TX and your lesson was quite informative, thanks. Don't know if it is true or not but none the less it was informative.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Actually, what brought the turtle situation to light was the actions of a commercial collector shipping large numbers of turtles to china for the food trade. Out of state people had nothing to do with that.

Unaware of an AR groups concerned with Box Turtles. What I am aware of is a large group of herpers(both hobbyists and academics) in Texas called the "Box Turtle Partnership of Texas" which has been asking for a level of protection to be awarded to these turtles.
They have also conducted informed meetings and talks about their plight in Texas due to over collecting, loss of habitat, fragmented habitat, and the late age of sexual maturity.

I am also aware of a potential breeding clause that is being considered for native Texas turtles.
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Tim Cole
www.Designeratrox.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

And what was the eventual outcome, Tim?
Did the Texas turtle meat trade to China stop?
Is the man that was the center of the issue out of business?
With all due respect Tim, I can not agree with your assertion that the groups you are referring to were in any way qualified or did any due diligence on the subject. A completely emotional plea by people who's motives are suspect.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Some are naive. Some are just plain old Herpocrites -- those that sidle up to Authority to curry favor, while they violate all of the noble moral judgments they espouse. Only they know what's best. Only they are competent. Their motives are beyond reproach. For they are better than us.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

through Care2. As I stated in a post that I made earlier, they have gotten some surprising results and just because the bill/bills in Tex. have been passed, that doesn't mean that they couldn't be amended. I'd sign at and act as passionately as I have in regards to getting the Mo. petition completed.
- Jason Thurber

I did go ahead and sign the petition, but my experience has been that petitions such as this generally have very little impact. On statewide issue such as this one, state legislators are much more likely to listen to their own constituents from their own districts. After all, those are the people who have elected them and whom they represent. Petitions signed by people from all over the country or world along with phone calls and letters from people who do not live in the state usually carry very little weight with them. A national organization IF it demonstrates that it has a sizable membership that it represents from that particular state would have a chance of being effective but mostly what is needed is for the people who live in those legislators' home districts to get off their duffs and write, call and meet face to face with their own legislators.
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

It just depends which side of the issue the petitioners are on.
I believe in the case of Missouri they won't pay much attention to out of state comments.
On the other hand, Texas Parks and Wildlife based their Native Turtle decision almost entirely on wrong assumptions, irrelevant analogies, unqualified opinions, and expert testimony -- almost all from outside Texas.
Just depends on how the wind blows.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Everyone seams to be forgetting not only why out of state votes count, but that they do. Folks with 'pets' concern themselves with the legalities involved in owning their 'pets' in the state that they plan on moving to and Missouri wants more residents/taxpayers, just like any other.
As far as the petition being pointless, as someone mentioned, we won't know until it's been turned over. I will say that Care2, through their petitions, have put an end to a lot of senseless legislation (the slaughtering of wolves in the northwest, the whale hunts in Japan that they had claimed were being conducted for 'experimental' purposes, etc.).
To say it isn't worth it to sign a petition is nothing shy of ignorant. What have you got to lose (other than your animals).

All,

I signed the petition yesterday. I hope that it will make some kind of difference. I urge everyone to sign it. We need to start fighting back. ANY attack against ANY part of the herp industry ANYWHERE needs to be fought. MO folks should post other ways for us to help as well. What reps to write/call, how to contact them, and a list of points to make would be helpful as well.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I have...signed the petition, joined HCU, joined PIJAC, donated to a friendly legislator's reelection campaign, expressed my opinions and offered suggestions on these forums. I will continue to do as much as I can.

TEXAS COPPERHEADS. lol

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>I have...signed the petition, joined HCU, joined PIJAC, donated to a friendly legislator's reelection campaign, expressed my opinions and offered suggestions on these forums.
>>TEXAS COPPERHEADS. lol

>>jsc
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>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer

Thanks John! We need folks like you who will really step up. nice copperheads too
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Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas
Herp Conservation Unlimited

Thank you, John. You know what to do.