Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why does TP&W require the newly permitted seller to turn in the address of every person that purchases locally or receives across state lines a native herp? This seems beyond the scope of what was proposed, and can be something very scary down the road. If they pass some new law saying you can not keep "species x" any more they will have a working data base to bust people, many of which might not know the rules were changed. Also it allows other outside sources access to such data, which is not a pleasant privacy situation to be in.

Let's put it this way..
- Do they have the same rules for a nursery that sells a native plant for your landscaping needs?
- If you order southern fried catfish at the local restaurant do you need to fill out a permit for this natural resource to change hands and leave the premises?
- You do not need to report who you sold a registered car to, it is up the buyer to take care of that.
- You do not need to report when a firearm changes hands in Texas.

So why are they treating us with such mistrust and abusing our wishes for privacy?

The permit system is bad enough, but placing that burden on the seller to violate the privacy of a buyer is not right, and maybe not legal. I am wondering if this is a reason for us to all chip to a fund to file some legal action to at the very least stop this data gathering which is beyond the minimum needed scope for TP&W to manage a resource. The goal should be to manage with the least invasive methods that will get the job done, and right now they are overplaying the hand.

These are my personal concerns and I hope they are shared by all herpers, now who feels like we should do something about this?

Lance
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

Lance,

Good points. There are a whole host of potential law suits concerning all the regs in TX. We have identified over half a dozen. We should really consider hammering them with law suits. One after the other. This might affect y'alls relationship with them, though.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

My concern is that we are required to turn in personal information of a third party without prior consent. It should be that third parties responsibility to report on any needed permit for their own local regulations.

TP&W has absolutely no business collecting data on people from out of state, and they should make it the buyers responsibility to report any non-protected animals under a permit, not the seller. Best deal would be that they had little or nothing at all to do with F1 and later captive produced offspring... If they are captive produce and therefore not suitable for release into the wild then they should not be managed like a natural (wild) resource, it is apples and oranges, they do not manage livestock like game after all. Unfortunately we are a long long way from that kind of relationship with TP&W.

Privacy is a big deal, and if we give it up we will never get it back.

Lance
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

You know they sell your information when you register your boat, or buy a hunting license, or a fishing license. Maybe they just want more names to sell. lol
There is a good chance those that feel passionately about the right to keep and breed reptiles are seen as a bit odd. Somewhat out of the mainstream. Probably consider us misfits and malcontents. Trouble makers for sure.
There is a good chance our interests place us at greater scrutiny by the NIS, once they add our information to their data base.
TP&W is just doing their part to keep the Homeland secure.
Could definitely help them gain some points when it comes time for earmarks and revenue sharing.
jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>This might affect y'alls relationship with them, though.

Give it a rest Welker.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

This should be a top subject for discussion at the HCU Annual meeting in June.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

No offense, but it should be the talk now... I can not see them defending this at all on a privacy issue.

What other minor legal transaction requires a person to give out this private information on a third party?

I wonder if the ACLU would take our side on this kind of data gathering?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

Almost everything they do is an ACLU issue.
It is a very good idea to get a civil rights lawyer involved in this stuff, even if we have to pay for our own.
The entire process is unconstitutional, as are the rules and regulations they impose.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I am sure you know that the govt; has a right to examine your book and magazine purchases under the patriot act. Furthermore you info has been turned over to authorities for years by utility companies if you are deemed to be using an excessive amount of electricity.Retaillers have been known to turn in people who buy excessive amounts of certain types of lights including florescent lights which we all use for reptiles so you can't just say "oh that's just to bust all those potheads out there" and think that it doesn't apply to you because. I have actually been the target of one of these investigations in the past. It was not some sort of door crashing narcotics raid but a friendly visit from one of my neighbors at the time who was a detective for a local police dept. and is now their police chief. It came in the guise of "my kids want to see your reptiles' is that ok. I never advertised the fact that I had a house full of reptiles so I knew what was up. I knew how many lights i was using and how much more power they were using compared to a typical home. I did comply as he was a decent guy and I figured it was better to let him know what I actually had rather than let rumors run wild in the neighborhood. But like I said I totally knew what it was about. Btw Maryland does a similar deal for the purchase of corn snakes. I once purchased some at a show for a friend who ran a small pet store and got the name and address thing and yes I felt it was none of Maryland's damn business who I was or where I lived. So for that transaction "Ben Dover of 2112 lilypad lane of- whatever town I made up N.Y. bought some corn snakes. fyi 2112 is the name of an old "Rush' concept album based on Ayn Rand's novella "Anthem" I always found that libertarian slant a little comical.

Buying / Selling herps is not a patriot act concern, no national security or drug traffic worries in that... So the seller should not have to report any third party private information. It should be the burdon of the buyer to turn that data in or not.

So, at least to me the argument still stands.

Lance
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

This requiremnet sets a very bad precident because it is asking the seller to do the state's job. Sellers are not trained or paid by the state to gather information and doing so could expose the seller to excessive risk of liability. Sellers should only be required to inform local buyer's that they must register thier controled animals.

It should not be the sellers responsibility to collect or verify a third parties personal data. Who will be responsible if the data is not accurate or if it is abused later in some way? Privacy is a very big deal and not to be taken lighly.

Lance
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Herp Conservation Unlimited