Reptile & Amphibian Forums

After viewing the transcript of the chat about the possible banning of pythons, boas... the main problem all of the "herp" people seem to have is in providing accurate scientific data.

I am sure if you searched journals you could easily find data regarding the environmental limiting factors for most species you are concerned about. Personal records and comments are fine but nothing beats a controlled experiment with published data!

If you really wanted more concrete and specific data I suggest running controlled experiments that would prove statistically that these snakes cannot survive the environments that are reported in the "map". With this in hand I would almost guarantee that the fish and wildlife biologists would have to agree and maybe even support your cause. It would be absurd to pass a law via your agency when your own scientists have data contrary to its need.

With all of the snakes you have available to you, and the many knowledgeable, scientifically inclined individuals, you could easily complete a study within a few months. You might even get it published in a herpetology journal!

Enjoy the ride!

All,

While I understand the posters points. There are some issues. First of all it has been said that these pythons would use "hibernaculums" if you will in the colder climates to beat the cold thus maintaining a somewhat preferred temperature during freezing winter months. However, if we decided to do an experiment I would want to go to south Florida and catch some of the "invaders" and use them as the subjects. The experiment would not be that hard to conduct. We could keep some outside and we could do an experiment under controlled conditions inside. I am not sure whether we would have any issues as far as cruelty though.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I have argued the point on here before that I did not believe the burms in the glades were long term animals living there however Tom Crutchfield corrected me on that and given his vast experience and knowledge I will believe him. I have a tendency of disbelieving govt. officials about such things because the govt. has had a long and varied history of lying to us about many numerous issues. That said, there are some points to be made about the pythons that are here in comparison to some the other non-native species that are here, in particular green iguanas. Green Iguanas are a much more popular pet than burmese pythons but are every bit as much an unsuitable for the average person who buys them and they very often get turned loose here in Fl. Having kept both, lots of burms in the past as well as a group of Iguanas that I have maintained outside for many years in central fl. (Iguanas outside not the burms...outside temps here will kill them...which should kill the whole argument but it doesn't.) I can tell you from actual personal experience that adult iguanas are incredibly cold tolerant and much more so than burms. In fact just this last week we had a cold front here in central Fl. that dropped the night time temps to right around freezing. Due to the nature of this years winter weather I did not plastic up there cage this year and chose to move them inside when temps would get unsuitable for them (nighttime lows in 20'sand or daytime highs in 50's or low 60's.) other than that they have a small simple supplemental heating system in their nighttime sleeping area to keep them warm during some of the cooler nights. Anyway during this last front after weighing in the weather factors I chose not to bring them inside as I felt (from vast experience with this.) that although it would be a bit on the cool side they would be fine with the supplemental heat. To shorten this long story I discovered the next day that one of my dogs had unplugged their heating system the night before. So basically my iguanas withstood a night of temps in the low 30's and half a day of temps in the upper 50's without their heating system. They are doing just fine. Anybody with half a brain who has kept burms can tell you temps like this will kill them. Now back to the Iguanas. Iguanas have breeding populations in south Fl but you don't here of it much further north than maybe bradenton on the gulf coast(perhaps some isolated breeding pops in the tampa area.) and maybe as far north as sebastian on the east coast. I am aware of a possible breeding population in an area n.e. of lake okeechobee. But i can definitely tell you they have not established themselves in central fl. if they did trust me Orlando would be overrun with them especially the winter park area where temps are warmer than the rest of the city in winter and there is plenty of lush tropical american vegetation around to feed them. Of course one of the biggest reasons for this is that while adults can handle some rather low temps baby iguanas cannot. So basically the point of my long thread is that if burms are going to move so far north, how come iguanas which are more cold tolerant have not? There is also the humidity factor. Burms require lots of it and contrary to popular belief once you get away from the coast florida is not as humid as most people think. In fact I keep uromastyx lizards outside year round here and they do just fine although if we are going to get several days of rain in a row (very rare the last couple of years btw.) I will partially cover their cage with some plastic to keep some of the rain out but other than that they do great. however given what I have pointed out in this post based on actual working knowledge of keeping reptiles outside here in central fl. I don't think they will move much further north than they already are. Btw given my thing for building large outdoor cages I considered trying to experiment with the burms outside thing as well as doing nile monitors outside minus supplemental heat or plastic just to see if they could live (although with the burms I really already know the answer so it would just be total animal cruelty.) But given the invasiveness of the roc permits and my strong religious opposition to the (666)microchips I don't think I'll be the one doing those experiments.

Again, without valid scientific experimintal data fish and game scientists may consider that even if it is just from April to Sept, these large, captive raised and released pythons are able to survive long enough to impact native populations. I saw a picture on the net that showed a python that had tried to eat an alligator. I have also seen pics of people in Asia who were eaten by large pythons. Real or not you know how it works with hysteria.

If you want to PROVE that these large constrictors will not be able to survive southern climates and establish a range you need a controlled experiment. These are scientists you are dealing with and that is what they look for.

I am certain that when they convene to review the information presented they would be more influenced by a valid study than undocumented accounts. If one was being conducted I am also certain that they would be willing to wait for the results.

Remember, invasive species are a huge problem and the damage they have already caused is enough to warrant strong action against further damage from new species (even if the new species cannot reproduce, continued release of captive animals could still impact native species).

This is not the forum to discuss how a controlled experiment would be conducted. It can be done and should be done (lab conditions would suffice). Without it I predict that your group will be seeing more regulations. Of course, if you believe that our governmental agencies prefer to avoid red tape...

>>Again, without valid scientific experimintal data fish and game scientists may consider that even if it is just from April to Sept, these large, captive raised and released pythons are able to survive long enough to impact native populations. I saw a picture on the net that showed a python that had tried to eat an alligator. I have also seen pics of people in Asia who were eaten by large pythons. Real or not you know how it works with hysteria.
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But this is a double standard! So one picture of an alligator getting eaten by Burmese python PROVES there is a problem??? We know for a fact that Burmese pythons eat pest animals like rats and feral cats, and also that alligators eat snakes (ie, ptyhons.) Why is that never mentioned? Why do we "herpers" have to adhere to scientific standards, especially when the burden of proof should be on the party(ies) making the claim that these pythons present a problem.
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>>If you want to PROVE that these large constrictors will not be able to survive southern climates and establish a range you need a controlled experiment. These are scientists you are dealing with and that is what they look for.

>>
>>I am certain that when they convene to review the information presented they would be more influenced by a valid study than undocumented accounts. If one was being conducted I am also certain that they would be willing to wait for the results.
>>
>>Remember, invasive species are a huge problem and the damage they have already caused is enough to warrant strong action against further damage from new species (even if the new species cannot reproduce, continued release of captive animals could still impact native species).
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This is a general statement that is not scientific proof. Where is the proof that released pythons is "a huge problem"? Please show me and the rest of the herp community some scientific data showing that any native species has been adversely affected by released burmese pythons?

Please back up your claims.
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Those few pictures have helped cause enough hysteria to try to stop herpers from keeping large constrictors under the guise of hurting native species. Someone got smart enough to use the invasive species scenario to implement an inquiry. Why? Because MOST people simply do NOT want large constrictors roaming free no matter where they are or how many pests they consume. Just let citizens vote on the right of herpers to keep large, "dangerous" snakes for pets. Why go through an inquiry? Let's put it to the people who live in these states to vote. Luckily it does not work that way.

The inquiry wants evidence that these snakes will not adapt, survive, become a danger... I have a 5.5' ball python that I kept in a basement at an ambient room temp that was about 55-60F with a hot spot that the snake hardly used. Never really saw her on the flexwatt. She is 15 years old and doing fine. She has actually produced offspring! She may be an exception but the Barker's ball python book helps me understand it (see page 169, last pgf and pg 170, first pgf). You might also take a look at page 171 "complications and considerations". Also, don't large pythons generate some heat via muscular contraction? It doesn't fool me. But my lawyer and accountant friends? The non-herpers who are not particularly fond of any snake. Thats another story!

Either way, if anyone wants the experimental design to conduct a VALID study (the thing those picky scientists want)...

Enjoy the fight! It may go 15 rounds. Can I tell you who will prevail?

We have all have already done the experiment in the form of real world application. Molurus has been available in the general pet trade for forty years and was brought to the US long before that. To date only one feral population can be documented and that one exist in one small area that provides optimum conditions. This includes all python species as well as boas. If these animals were as adaptable and environmentally threatening as some of those picky scientists propose. It would seem logical that there would be a lot more real life evidence to support their hypotheses.

I see what your saying the truth is our side will be submitting plenty of information from a scientific view point . Many of the pen and paper guys only understand what read , not the real world. In their minds this passes for validation. So it's very important to humor these guys with comforting documentation in terms of it's " scientific " foundation.

One of the problems is the other views expert information is being produced from skewed sources ( Skip Snow, Dr Rodda Etc.) . A large source being " specialist " Skip Snow . I have been following Skips work since before this was news and lets just say Skip and Gordon Rodda are on the same page. At this point most everything on paper is speculation. Not to much in the way of facts.

Temperature makes up only one element of a species ability to survive. To break this angle down to it's most elementary form.

Black rat snakes survive in regions that fall far below freezing. Now place a rat snake in a freezer at 32 degrees. My bet is that it doesn't hibernate it dies. Over all circumstances and not simply temperature. When you look for a valid study the question is what constitutes valid. To the academics it would seem drawing conclusions from a forced scenario is valid. In the classroom it's been said many times that if you introduce an animal into a foreign environment that it's chances of survival are slim. Now the same people that graduated fron these classrooms are telling us if you introduce an animal into a foreign environment it will completely take over.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

I hope it works out. I am a tortoise guy but I also like constrictors and hate to see more regulations of my individual "rights". It is bad enough for turtle keepers as it is.

I have dealt with the USFW and most of them are realistic and not just by the book scientists. I hope they do not cave in to the publics paronia and the lobbyists that seem to be gaining momentum against the pet industry.

As I said, most of my friends who do not own herps have little concern for herpers which translates into little effort to sign a petition or email coments to support herpers. Most of them believe that dogs, cats, birds and fish are pets and reptiles should be left where they came from. That comes from lawyers, doctors, plumbers, electricians, grocery clerks... white and blue collar alike.

The problem is certainly lack of organization. Has anyone tried to form a national organization that would link many of the current committees, clubs, forums... under a single cohesive title. An individual like myself (and millions of others - I hope) would be willing to join for a yearly fee. All I would expect is that the organization keeps an eye out for local and federal laws that affect individuals, businesses... When one pops up the organization would have the financial resources to put a comittee of experts into action. THey could determine a course of action if one is needed or could have an effect. And if a few more dollars are needed I am sure the millions of us would be willing to support it. Kind of like our own "PETA".

I know PIJAC has helped but they already have their hands full with the non-herp aspects of the industry. Why not give individual herpers one place to look for support?

Again, without valid scientific experimintal data fish and game scientists may consider that even if it is just from April to Sept, these large, captive raised and released pythons are able to survive long enough to impact native populations. I saw a picture on the net that showed a python that had tried to eat an alligator. I have also seen pics of people in Asia who were eaten by large pythons. Real or not you know how it works with hysteria.

I am pretty sure that was the other way around. the Gator was eating the burm, but the burm was not "willing" to be a meal and trying to escape. If we were looking at the same picture there is no way that burm could have gotten its mouth around that gator if by some stroke of luck it could win that fight. It was just too small for prey that big around.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited

With all due respect, I completely disagree. If this were about "scientific" fact and data, things wouldn't have even gotten this far. Any true snake expert (as well as anyone with even minor knowledge of snakes) knows that burmese pythons could never survive in 99% of the US. Heck, my 8 year old could do a google search and come to that correct conclusion. I live in central NC, which is included in the USGS map as possible habitat for burms. Right now it's under 40 degrees.
If anyone is dumb enough to believe a burm would survive here, it should be incumbent upon him to place a burm outside to try to prove it. But there's a reason that hasn't been done. BECASUE THE SNAKE WOULD DIE! If the forces behind this legislation could prove that burms could survive anywhere other than south/central Florida, THEY WOULD HAVE DONE the experiment already! This has nothing to do with science, it has everything to do with agendas and politics.

Thanks,
Ed

>>After viewing the transcript of the chat about the possible banning of pythons, boas... the main problem all of the "herp" people seem to have is in providing accurate scientific data.
>>
>>I am sure if you searched journals you could easily find data regarding the environmental limiting factors for most species you are concerned about. Personal records and comments are fine but nothing beats a controlled experiment with published data!
>>
>>If you really wanted more concrete and specific data I suggest running controlled experiments that would prove statistically that these snakes cannot survive the environments that are reported in the "map". With this in hand I would almost guarantee that the fish and wildlife biologists would have to agree and maybe even support your cause. It would be absurd to pass a law via your agency when your own scientists have data contrary to its need.
>>
>>With all of the snakes you have available to you, and the many knowledgeable, scientifically inclined individuals, you could easily complete a study within a few months. You might even get it published in a herpetology journal!
>>
>>Enjoy the ride!

First and foremost, there should be proof of a problem before making a law to confront it, not proof of a lack of the problem. This should hold true for any government agency, not on the citizens that would be affected. My problem with the OP's suggestion is not that it wouldn't work in this case but what about in the future when laws are drafted that can't be easily proven false? The whole god debate comes to mind..." prove he exists!", " you prove he doesn't!"

Even though i don't think we SHOULD need to do anything about something so obviously unfounded, i do think it would help us.
I know there has to have been studies done on southern burm populations as well as the studies the usgs people looked at for their data, someone should really find those. There should also be more than enough very scientific and properly collected data from burm keepers and researchers. There is no reason for a lab or any thing like that, its not like we need to sequence dna, run blood work, or do any genetic engineering lol. But a large library of scientific and anecdotal data could only help our case. Maybe it could even be online, we really do need a very nice comprehensive database containing papers,statistics,care info, everything. =p We could name it geekysnake.com

Exactly. In fact, the question I e-mailed to the moderators of the
recent KS chat (a question that was never asked) was, "What burden of proof, if any, does the Lacey Act/USFWS require to take action (which uses our tax money?)"

Hopefully our judicial system won't take this route. Anyone accused of a crime will have to prove they DIDN'T commit the crime.

Thanks,
Ed

>>First and foremost, there should be proof of a problem before making a law to confront it, not proof of a lack of the problem.

What I see is that South Florida is plagued by invasives, not just burms but many many species of herps from the humble anoles to the caimans, boas, burms and so on. Now if these animals can so easily expand to exist elsewhere then why don't they? They have all been available to the public for decades and releases or escapes have been happening from coast to coast since they have been available. But they have only established sustaining populations in areas of South Florida.

It seems simple to me, this is a real problem in South Florida that needs attention and action. But it is not a national issue by any standard of reality and interstate measure will not fix anything while impacting the rights responsible herpers everywhere.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited