Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There is an article in today's Houston chronicle that links the amphibian decline to the pet trade, over-collecting, and the chytrid fungus. If you review the very end of the USF& W panel chat transcript you will find a smattering of information regarding a chytrid meeting held last year that PIJAC attended. From the information I have it looks like there will be a concerted effort to stop the trade in amphibians next.

Article: Frogs raise red flags on environmental hazards

Edited on March 8, 2008 at 11:32:54 by jeffb.

I would not put much stock in the pet trade causing a decline. The answer is not in herpers, but more likely in pesticides (and other chemicals) as well as habitat loss...

What they never seem to admit with herps of concern is that these large scale environmental changes are the main factor, but so many times they seem afraid to attack that angle because there is big money there. No big money in herpers as far as I can tell?

If they would listen to us as a group I think we could teach them a few things, but we are generally not considered reliable sources of data. (In my personal opinion)
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

Why are we not generally considered to be reliable sources of data? Partially because they see us as being nothing more than a bunch of undesirable wackos who keep weird "pets" and I guess we are going to continue projecting that image. (In my personal opinion)

Gerald,

You are correct. We have to form a nationwide all inclusive group that counters all the negative assumptions about private herpers. We need to form a professional association that promotes our hobby in a positive light. We need to establish our own checks and balances. We need to stand up and be responsible. We need to hire a staff of folks that handle the affairs of this association on a day to day basis. Almost everyone in the hobby is to busy to do it "part time". We need a professional staff of biologists, PR folks, lawyers, lobbyists, marketing folks and support staff. That is my opinion.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

If you did ANYTHING besides flap your jaws in forums and collect crap to sell, maybe you'd have a head start on your commercial collectors guild.

Forks
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

All,

As we can see from the tone and insults in the response somone is a little angry. Apparently, they do not have the intelligence to discuss the issues and simply want to throw out insults. And to believe this person is the president of an organization that is supposed to represent the recreational hobbyists. Real professional, huh?

To set the record straight. I just completed a graduate level course in Environmental Economics that's what I have been doing this winter. What about you? As for posts to forums, that is super funny. When one scrolls through some of the many forums on Kingsnake whose name pops up a lot? Here is a hint, it's not mine.

Okay, now that the truth is out. We can see the lies and mis-information spewed. I rest my case.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

All,

I forgot an important point. I guess I got caught up in defending myself and telling the truth.

The American Herpetological Association (AHA) is not a "commercial collectors guild." We represent the entire herp industry. This includes pet owners, collectors, dealers, breeders, pet stores and herp related products companies. Both commercial and recreational. We are an all inclusive group not a splinter group like some others. Think PIJAC just for the herp industry. And we support PIJAC.

Have a good day,

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

We certainly count commercial dealers, pet store owners, commercial breeders, and even importers of farm bred herps from other countries. The only folks we don't cater to, are folks like YOU Mike, and you're the only person moaning about it, then and now.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha does not support me, you need folks like me to support you! But I am not in the business to support folks like you, ahahahahahaha!
Sorry, couldn't think right, had to defend myself!
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Todd Hughes

>>I just completed a graduate level course in Environmental Economics that's what I have been doing this winter.

That compliments your honorary doctorate in raping and pillaging Mike. I'm proud of you.

Forks
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

All,

He is so funny. Are you going on tour?

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

What is comical, is that we are not lobbying against you, despite what you believe and the fact that we've told you that a million times, yet you persist.

What is comical, is that when you attempt to derail us, you by default are hurting yourself, because one of the issues we are most engaged in and interested to address, will directly benefit you.

What is comical, is that we would help you even though we have different philosophies, if only you would stop with the "giving rights away" crap. It's patently false.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Okay,

You say: "What is comical, is that we are not lobbying against you, despite what you believe and the fact that we've told you that a million times, yet you persist."

HCU says: Reptiles and Amphibians continue to face great peril on many fronts including urban sprawl and COMMERCIAL COLLECTION. We must act now if we hope to have any influence on herp populations, not only in Texas but across the nation.

HCU says: Resolution 2: HCU does not SUPPORT the collection of any reptile or amphibian from the wild for the PURPOSES OF SALE, including, but not limited to, the wholesale commercial collection of turtles for food markets and similar trade in rattlesnake skins, meat, and organs.

We need to end this arguement. I will always not support parts of HCU as it currently stands and I will always fight for my rights and what I think is right.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

So, just to be clear, Mike-

You DO support the wholesale collection of Texas turtles for Asian food markets?

You DO support the trade in rattlesnake meat, skins and leather?

Just wonedring.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Brad,

Don't be an arse. Every species of herp prodcues a surplus of individuals that can be harvested. I believe that everyone should have a right to harvest their fair share of that surplus.

As for what is done with the animals after they are harvetsed that is up to the individual. I don't like that rattlesnakes are treated badly and I think that abuse should be illegal. However, if people want to eat, wear or display animal parts that is their own business. I don't agree with it and I wouldn't kill an animal for that purpose. However, all of us support the killing of animals and plants for human food consumption.

I personally think that anyone that supplies these markets should get their bag limit fair share but if the demand is to great then those species should be ranched to feed the demand. They should use their fair share bag limits as founder stock to start captive "ranched" programs. Of course if the species in question is an introduced exotic then bag limits should be unlimited.

Was that clear enough for you? Don't be an arse.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Clear as mud, Mike. For example, your statement:

I personally think that anyone that supplies these markets should get their bag limit fair share but if the demand is to great then those species should be ranched to feed the demand. They should use their fair share bag limits as founder stock to start captive "ranched" programs. Of course if the species in question is an introduced exotic then bag limits should be unlimited.

A state wildlife manager might respond to you that, while herps might certainly produce a surplus just like any game animal, and that surplus could be apportioned to private collectors, the bag limits would, like is the case with all other terrestrial game animals, be relatively low. This would effectively ban commercial trade (or actually end up banning it by law-I know of no state in which native game animals or birds are allowed to be commercially hunted).

Now, since bag limits are highly unlikely to be set at a level that will satisfy you or other commercial collectors-or, indeed allow you to survive financially(for example the asian turtle market is for all practicle purposes "insatiable", are you saying you would support this?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Brad,
No,
Mike is saying he supports collecting reptiles from the wild and profitting from them. That is clearly his agenda, and he has not tried to hide it.

Randal

>>Brad,
>>No,
>> Mike is saying he supports collecting reptiles from the wild and profitting from them. That is clearly his agenda, and he has not tried to hide it.
>>
>>Randal

Well when he collects from the road and sells it now he'll be violating the Lacey Act. Apparantly that just set in and he's having one last hissy fit.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Randall

Actually, Mike does try to hide it, both the fact of his status as a commercial collector (For example, on the PARC listserve recently he billed himself as a "Herpetologist/Wildlife Scientist", and was careful never to mention his collecting business in his posts during his brief stint) and the degree to which he practices said trade. Remember his protestations that he is a breeder who only collects when academics and hobbyists request animals? You don't hear much of that from him anymore, since Joe and others pointed out the number of ads he runs for wild-caught animals on KS classifiedsduring the wild herp season.

A lot of us are merely tired of his distortions and lies about HCU and hobbyists in general. If Mike would stick to the issues we would all get much more fruitful discussion accomplished.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

He particularly gets his panties in a wad when you mention the exploitation of Box Turtles, and then he goes off on a tirade making wild accusations and calling me a liar. Obviously that is a sensitive spot he's got himself into.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Brad,

Just some FYI's:

I have been a member of PARC since 2000 and still am a member.

I am a memeber of SSAR and have been since 1998.

I have been employed on a number of herp research field projects.

I have two college degrees and going for my third.

So I am a wildlife scientist/herpetologist.

I have geographic records published in Herp Review.

I have one paper in press and several in preparation. These are co-authored papers in peer reviewed journals.

Bottom line: You are an arse. A big fat arse.

Later,

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Mike this united under one banner is something I disagree with. It fosters an all or nothing attitude and most of the people against us would rather ban everything if they only have those choices. A hobbyist/sportsman type organization is badly needed, if only to show the opposition that commercial collecting is only a small part of the hobby.

Commercial collecting is the hardest sell there is to these wildlife managment agencies. Economically speaking the majority of the benifits goes to a very small number of people, which are the commercial collecters themselves. Most species that actually do well in captivity and make good pets are also easily bred. The demand for such species can be easily supplied by breeders who are willing to spend the money and take the time to field collect their own stock. It is much better for local economies to have 100 people spending $1,000 apeice to collect a small number of herps than it is to have one guy spend $1,000 on a trip and sell and keep the profits for himself.

I am not saying commercial collecting is always a bad thing but I am saying it has very little appeal to local economies and hence, to local politicians. Hobbyist/sport take is also a less risky proposition for wildlife managment to accept. More licenses = more fees = more money for studies. One or two dozen commercial collecters spending $60 each on a license = not much, as far as these game agencies are concerned.

I really wish the wildlife agencies would do all the studies and such to determine maximum harvest but I don't think it's going to happen because it's such a hard sell. If you can get a group going I would join as a dues paying member at the hobbyist level but until then I will continue to support the hobbyist group that best represents my primary stake in these issues.

Mike,

I too have a degree.

I too have been published, and conducted "real" herp research.

But, like you, I don't make my living as a scientist.

Unlike you, however, I don't claim to be a professional scientist to try to gain legitimacy for my opinions.

Also unlike you, I don't have to resort to lies and pathetic and childish name-calling to make myself feel better.

Take care
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

"I believe that everyone should have a right to harvest their fair share of that surplus."

If a species is exceptionally good at keeping themselves going, how does that automatically give us the right to go start taking them with wild abandon, kill them for useless things, sell them, harvest them, and or ranch them? We get no "fair share" of any other living creature on earth, or any other planet. Look at the food industry, keeping all these animals for the sole purpose of taking a third of it, and throwing the rest away! Which wouldn't be AS devastating, if they didn't keep only what they need! You said that we could take as many of the "introduced species" that we want. If you think about it, a lot of the species living in the US are "introduced", so that would mean that we could go around with a gun, and randomly shoot anything that moves? Domestic cats and dogs are introduced species. You can't honestly believe that all the pet farms are good for the animals, and you would essentially be doing the same thing to the rest. But i forgot, you're not thinking of the animals best interest, all you're concerned about is how big your profit is gonna be.
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-Jacob

"Math counts for gum.. gotta chew something while in math or you'll bloody scream." -Laura a.k.a. Priincezz93

It's pretty sad that you can't build your organization without trying to tear another one down. You can't accomplish anything on your own merit.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

All,

You guys are a joke. A plain joke. You guys obviously have no life. You have nothing better to do then to try and discredit me on public forums. You lie, twist, mis-represent and slander. You can't openly discuss the issues because you know I am correct. You are bullies. There is no point arguing with you jokers. You don't know how to debate the issues, you just want to throw insults. You guys are so holyer-than-thou it is not even funny. Everyone knows you are a bunch of ego-driven hypocrites. I hope you are proud of your selves. You guys are an embarrassment to the herp hobby. I have much more important things to do then to argue with you hard heads.

Later, much later,

The Bigger Man
El Paso, TX

That's because you can't stick to the issues, just read your last post,, hahahaha.

It's sad that we are fighting for the right just to catch and keep certain herps, and you are worried about whether or not you can sell them!

Classic Welker.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Mike,
I really thought you were an intelligent person, immune to kindergarten name-calling.

However,
I was mistaken, please except my apologys.
No one cares if you were an SSAR member or that you have 2 degrees and are working on a third. It's people like you, that each morning I wake up and say, damn, "I'm glad I'm not corrupted by a college degree!" LOL!
People you are fighting with here have surely forgotten more about herps than you, I'm serious dude!

You need to relax, slow down, and see the BIG picture.

Sincerely,
your buddy,
Randal

Mike you have been spouting all of that since back last year when HCU was first being talked about. You did not like our approach because it did not support your commerical collecting business so you opted to go your own way. HCU is here, alive and functional. We are making some progress, are establishing working relationships with some legislators and in the meantime are also finding and making available to our membership some vast and interesting private lands for herping. That is what we have been doing this past year. What has the organization that you were/are forming done during the past year...in addition to your Internet posting? Talk is cheap. If you want me to jump on your bandwagon, show me some results or some progress worth discussing.

"The proof is in the eating of the pudding."
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Gerald Keown
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
www.southwesternherp.com

Gerald,

Point taken. I do not deny the good and positive things that the recreational groups have done. I just don't think they are the answer for the herp industry in general. We are working hard on our group. It takes an immense amount of work and we all have other things in our lives to see to. Which is why we have been soliciting folks for help. It takes a lot of time to write up the content for the website not to mention the acquisition of funding to become a 501(c)(4) and pay for the website. We will defintely keep folks posted.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Lance,

You are wrong on this one. The overall decline of amphibians can not be blamed on the herp industry but the introduction of chytrid fungus is being blamed on the industry. Academics are freaking about the chytrid fungus. Supposedly, it came in with a shipment of African clawed frogs (frequently used as study animals by academics)and they accidently trasferred it to wild populations. Subsquent screening of other African clawed frog colonies in the US showed chytrid present. However, chytrid is showing up in a lot of places. I don't think all can be blamed on imported animals. But you know they will blame the herp industry at every opportunity and the decison-makers believe whatever the academics say (because they come from academia). Maybe you can research the entire situation and let us know what you find.

But Jeff is correct, frogs are next. I wonder when they will go after grayband keepers? That is coming believe me. We are under a full onslaught attack from AR influenced, precautionary principal abusing academics. There will be more to come. You can rest assured of that. The only way we will be able to survive is to ALL band together and fight everything all the way. When it slacks off we need to stay focused because more will be coming. It will not end until one of two things happen. They win and all of our rights and privilages are gone. Or we stand up for ourselves with money and effort, and we find a win/win balance that they can't overcome.

We have to start now. We have been losing ground for years and we have not put forth the effort to protect ourselves. We need to step up now or it will all be gone. Mark my words.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Need to get organized? Need valid scientific data, studies... I think I said that in my messages just below these.

"Serious herpers" need to start reading research journals and see how scientists come to conclusions. More weight is given to valid research rather than personal comments.

I didn't want to take up too much room here so I posted this on the link below:
Irony and Golden frogs

To me, this is, in a nutshell, what this battle is all about, and why we MUST win.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Thanks for the link. Sadly, it doesn't surprise me, it's another case of what I call "Ivory Tower Arrogance." One of my other hobbies is collecting fossil shark teeth, and the same type of thing happens between private collectors and academics. Private collectors have, *by far*, the most amount of knowledge and specimens. And most are extremely bright and willing to share with others. But God forbid that a "scientist" would actually collaborate with a lowly private collector. And similarly to this reptile/amphibian situation, many of the academics would be happy to ban private collecting of fossils. Kind of sad, really, since it actually impedes real scientific progress. As a result, some of the fossil/evolutionary theories coming out of even places like the Smithsonian have been laughable.

Thanks for sharing your story,
Ed

>>I didn't want to take up too much room here so I posted this on the link below:
>>Irony and Golden frogs

I don't think any of them give a whit about the animals.

In these hard economic times with the current administration consuming billions and billions of dollars for their agenda, all the other jurisdictions and bureaucracies are doing what ever they can, to squeeze every penny they can get out of whoever they can get it from.
It's just a matter of control - tariffs, permits, cronies, etc.

And, efficiencies -- eliminate the costly non productive niches of the trade. It's kinda like an attack on the Fine Arts. An unnessessary extravagance. Doesn't make 'em any money and too expensive to oversee. Blanket bans are so much cheaper and easier to enforce.

They're having to get pretty darned creative. They figure if the American public is stupid enough to reelect our current President, it shouldn't be too hard to sell the idea that We need to be eliminated for the public good.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Isn't if funny, the forces that got us into this ecological/environmental situation are the exact same ones trying to lay the blame on us?
No. It isn't funny. It's sad, but all too true.
The next time you're considering throwing your lot in with power, through cooperation, capitulation, and appeasement -- think about it.
Throwing one of your brothers under the bus to save your skin is only temporary appeasement. Next time it will be you.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer