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Here's some more Kings and two off topic pics.
Bell line Hypo

Het White Wall Speckled Kings



BHB Anery het Lavender Florida King

What I think is an Axanthic Southern Pine

Hypo het Anery Honduran

Het Peanut Butter Brooksi

Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Those are cool. I pick this one:

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1.1 Florida Kingsnake
1.0 Kisatchie Cornsnake

I love that snake too, the eyes are solid black and it was blueish as a baby, it's a yearling now Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

VERY nice animals, AND pics Tom!..........man, that Southern Pine does look pretty darn white to me too,....no creamy yellowing whatsoever!,........I suspect that it was NOT sold to you as an "Axanthic", correct?.......are there any axanthic Southerns on the market at all that you know of?

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Hmmmmn all nice animals... even those specks are really nice. That Southern Pine is amazing!

Chris

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TomsSnakes.com

Man lemme tell you Doug. I have researched Axanthic Southerns or better said Snow Southerns on and off for 3 years. Now you tell me....why are there Snows for sale and no Axanthics? Kinda odd huh? The snake pictured popped out of normals unknown to be het for anything. I need a Snow female to breed it too to see if this is the missing link. If that doesn't prove out I still bet it is Axanthic. Hold it next to a Ghost Sonoran and they're very similar.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Wow Tom,......that is EXTREMELY odd!???, I'm not a "big cheese" in the Pit. world, but if that's the case, like you said, what constitutes a "snow"?,.....I automatically assumed it would be an amel x anery/axanthic combination. Not really sure I understand what the deal is on that.

Your animal does indeed look like what would be needed to produce snows,.......I guess this "snow" thing with Pits is an entity all it's own,......is that the deal here? Help me understand this situation a little better, okay?.......sounds like from all the other responses also, that you have a real unique animal.

thanks man!, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug, check out the Pit forum as I am now ranting about this again. It should get busy within a few days but hopefully some people will post in my defense that I have been hunting down a true Anery or Axanthic gene in Pines for 3 years and only had a good friend pop the kind I pictured unexpectedly.

In ALL other snakes I can think of a Snow is what we all think it should be. Albino and Anery/Axanthic. However for years Snow Pines are available but no one is selling Anerys.

Personally here I have produced some nice silver gray snakes and just last year produced what seems ot be a Snow so my breeders may very well be het Albino and het Axanthic but the one pictured was not even the bluest one my firend produced. I will dig up some pics for you from 2006 that will blow your mind.

People have become infuriated with me {like I care HA!} over this as the guy who started this is one of the hugest names in the industry but since he has animals worth thousands of dollars he doesnt seem interested in explaining beyond he had an Anery once and made hets, then sold and has no idea to who or what became of it..... Pines are not exactly popular so I understand to a degree but you'd think someone somewhere would be offering Anery/Axanthics by now no?

Like I said visit the Pit forum now and then, it may get interesting LOL
Tom Stevens King lover and PIT MANIAC
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TomsSnakes.com

Ahh, okay!,........I'm starting to see "the light" here on this..LOL!

Just like you also think, something ain't quite jivin' here, Like you mentioned, if these animals were the "standard" snows, there would DEFINITELY be anery/axanthics out there SOMEWHERE to make more of this fairly coveted snow morph!,..heh?

Funny that the guy mysteriously got rid of his original anery/axanthic animal responsible for all the so called "snows", isn't it?..hahaha!

I look real forward to seeing that other pic you were talking about too,.....that bluish hue you mentioned is KILLER!

That "test" breeding you have planned will surely help "iron" some things out here, won't it?, and if no homo snows come out of it, it looks like you indeed have a true "real deal" anery/axanthic(the missing link) that nobody has ANYMORE of, OR, never DID have!..LOL!

I'll visit the Pit forum, and see what kind of grief you stir up for the "BIG WHEELS" over there...hahahaha!

very interesting Tom!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I can tell you this. I came up with a Hypothesis. What I said was I wondered if Snows just happened to be White Albinos and not Albino X Anery/Axanthic. Some got all in an uproar over that comment but here's the thing. If you took the time to look at the variation in Southern Pines you'd be baffled as to why they were not very popular. To some FL residents, these snakes are seriously appreciated and studied but those people can not legally keep and breed them due to a protected status or something.... but one guy was very specific and explained a few looks that were seen in some specific locales. I think they can "gift" a snake to someone...but selling is prohibited???

Regardless I didn't think it was so crazy to wonder if Snows were White Albinos.... but someone I think is very knowledgeable told me he remembers Anerys and thinks ones like mine may very well be those from way back when. He claimed my snake may actually lighten up a lot and start showing white??? Time will tell. I will email you later as these subjects can be tricky and the names involved are names of people who are known to be very honest. When I began this search for the missing morph I also suggested that since the snake was not a big deal to this person, he may have honestly represented the snake initially and then maybe later on others working with the line changed the name? Who knows..... I will keep looking and work with what I have,
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I realize I got ahead of myself.....
when I mentioned the variation....I was trying to get to the point that for example maybe a Brown Pine that was het would make the nice pink Albinos we see. But a Gray Pine that was het may make a White Albino...know what i mean????
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tom, I totally dig every bit of what you're saying here, and your previous post as well. It makes a lot of sense. As a matter of fact, I remember seeing the first article on the patternless S.Pines many years ago in Reptile magazine. I wish I followed them more than I have in the past, but even now, knowing what I do, I can see some "smoke" forming, so to speak.

These dudes are extremely variable, and some definite possibilities do come to mind, as you've hit on already.

anyway, feel free to contact me anytime about anything snakes.

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

In Florida we are not allowed to sell or buy Southern Pines. But we are allowed to keep 1 per person.
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Michael Enriquez

Thanks for that info, I knew they were protected, but I didn't know just anyone was allowed to have a SINGLE one. Is there any other "fine print", or clauses?

thanks, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

" Is there any other "fine print", or clauses? "

Doug,
The regulations allow us to keep and sell albinos legally in Florida. The interesting twist is that if we breed our one legal normal to a legal albino then all the offspring are illegal (the hets would be normal phenotype and exceed our limit of one). Hmmmm...
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Lindsay Pike
Urotopia Uromastyx

That is very interesting,........I can see why they allow that,.....they figure ANY Southern Pine with a "normal" phenotype, has a possibility of being taken from the wild, whereas they figure any albino was highly likely a captive bred animal.

The het(normal phenotype) thing is a definite a "stumbling block" of sorts for breeders though. That forces a guy to do more homozygous "line breeding"(inbreeding) though..LOL!,......of well, what can ya do!

Thanks for that info!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

If you breed a snow to a normal (both phenotype AND genotype, you need to know it's not het for anything) then the offspring would be double-hets if the snow is a double-homozygous trait (anery and amel). Breed those babies to each other and you would theoretically eventually get some snow, anerys, amels, and normal looking offspring. 1:3:3:9
I know little about pinesnake morphs, but I would think that this would have been done by now.
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Lindsay Pike
Urotopia Uromastyx

Yes, I agree, under "normal" circumstances, that's absolutely true, but there seems to be a funny underlying question as to there ever being a anery/axanthic involved with these "snow" S. Pines from what Tom has said, and from what I have gathered after reading all of his posts on this.

Also on the Pit. forum for the past several years, Tom's had extensive trouble in locating any actual anery/axanthic animals that should also be alledgedly out there somewhere, as they would normally be a key part in producing what we would think of as a "standard" snow morph(albino x anery/axanthic). The funny thing he has been pondering, is WHERE ARE all these anery/axanthics????. He keeps getting "double-talk" from a well known "big-wheel", and that he "had" an anery/axanthic a long time ago, but doesn't any more, with no real explanation as to why, or to who, or anything. I'm not a big Pit "guru", but from what I've gathered from Tom, is there might be the possibility of there not even being an anery/axanthic in the snow equation???, I don't know, but I certainly would like to know more about this.

Also, after thinking some more about this, If the "originator"(s) lived in Florida, the law as you explained it to me would make having an anery/axanthic illegal, and might have a big factor in this, leaving only albinos and snows to be legal in Florida to be bred,.....that's at least ONE small possibility here.

anyhow, thanks for that info man!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Like I said, the above was "IF" it is a double recessive trait. On the other hand, if it is a single recessive, a type of leucistic for example, then those offspring of a snow X normal breeding would only yield two phenotypes when bred to each other.
And to reiterate, I don't know nuthin 'bout no piney morphs, and I would think this had all been figured out by now by those that do.
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Lindsay Pike
Urotopia Uromastyx

Three years in a row I went to the table where the man who would know was busy as can be at Daytona. If I remember correctly the first time he half asnwered me as he walked away.... I totally understand he was probably making big bucks and was busy but after he said he had an Anery but had to sell it as it looked too much like a normal he made it clear that was the history.... that's all he was willing to say.
The following 2 years I asked the same questions which had his employees walking from one side of his displays ot the other while he himself was again busy with much more important things.. which again I understand.
The thing is the history I got was exactly this
We had an Anery, made double hets and sold it
there was no pictures saved
they dont remember where it went.

Now as Doud said. Where are ANY Anerys? I may be producing them here and have no idea since people who bought them from me have not stayed in touch....which sux as I asked them too since they could have helped me with this. Matter of fact I sold them at normal price since I could not say anything but "these may be Anerys".
First off here is a Ghost Sonoran, this is WAY more complicated and whatnot but to keep this easier for us here and now call it an Anery....look at the eyes and colors

Now take it a step further and look at these pics from 2006.




This is form the first surprice clutch that had these pop up. This snake was damn blue in person.
Now lemme throw you for a loop..........what the heck is this Albino? It was Creamsicle Corn orange and turned Rust colored.


Now here's 3 I produced last year.


this one may be an Anery, look at the White Albino next to it in the above pics

Now look at this again

Understand I have sen a pic or two of a similar looking Pine like the blotched one above someone told me was common for that local. Does that mean there's a wild locale of Anerys? Maybe?
However when people have spoken of Anery Pines they look more like the Patternless picture with 2 siblings above. A friend of mine bought one like that as an Anery and bred it to a Snow and got normals???? Understand why I am confused? Now even worse....someone I know well and trust told me he remembered seeing the bluesish blotched ones my firend produced 10 years ago and that he thought those were the ingredient in the Snows?
So yeah...now tell me....if you were me what would you have thought when you saw this pop out? The pics do it no justice. It had a white head, yellow body and purple blotches.





Now this snake has changed a lot and its white with off white blotches.....but too make a long story short I feel there's a lot we don't know about Pine morphs....
Here's the mother

Interesting huh?
Now some KINGSNAKES
Ghost

Axanthic

Ghost

Axanthic

Ghost

Axanthic

BHB Anery and Lavender

Axanthic

I will be talking more on the Pit forum but I need to really choose my words carefully over there. I really would love ot figure all this out but some people will getangry over nothing and ge the post all botched...but this one should let you know a bit about this topic
SORRY OFR THE TYPOS, TIME IS MONEY YA KNOW
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tom, your post was VERY in depth, and detailed in trying to explain some of this, you did a good job of showing that this indeed is a real mystery. It does seem that the genetics of these Pines(and maybe other Pits.)might very well go beyond anyone's understanding thus far. After all, you have been dedicated to the Pit. genus for some time, and have been diligently researching into this for a long while now, and STILL come up short with any real answers to this genetic puzzle.

I wish I had been into Pits like I have been into so many other species/ssp. of snakes over the last 41 years, then I might have a little more insight on this. But since I do have a VERY extensive knowledge into many other types, I can definitely see here from just those few exchanges we have had about this, that this is an extremely complex issue, to say the least.

Before this post, I thought I might have seen some possible answers(and still might), but as I found out more and more on this, I actually noticed me KNOWING probably less and less!..LOL!
I'm beginning to get a pretty good "picture" of the frustration you've been running into with this.

I'm not sure at all what to make of it, I guess that makes two of us, huh???

I will say however, those animals you posted were really superb looking, and unique. I hope you can find your way to getting some legitimate answers about this sometime soon.

Until then,.........the mystery continues, as does the investigation...LOL!

thanks again for those great posts Tom!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

As you said, the deeper I dig the harder things are to understand. I will keep digging and in the meantime it is a pleasure to work with Pits. They're very under rated pets.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Love the Pine. That is an awesome color. Also like the Speckle. Nice snakes!

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TomsSnakes.com

Nice pics! I love the speckled kings. Very handsome.

Thank you. Speckleds are great snakes. They can be a bit high strung but they're very low maintenance
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Those het for Whitewall Specks rock!

reako45

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TomsSnakes.com

very nice collection. i really like the looks of the pine
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Dan S.
Crotalus & Company-- Captive Bred Reptiles
Venom-Center -- Venomous Community
Wisconsin Reptile Community
Hybrid Herps-- Hybrid Community

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TomsSnakes.com