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What traits make up this snake? Is it a triple homo animal? Patternless x Albino x Anery. If we put her with a normal whant can I expect? Thanks for your time
Cody

Not 100% sure on the genetics, but that sounds right.

I have been looking for a some babies for a while...
if you don't mind me asking...where/from who did you get your's and for how much?

My fiance picked her up in 05 at the chicago show from the Bells. They actually only had one. Since we have bought her i have only seen one other set for sale and that was a breeding pair for $1100. I have a friend here in St Louis with many pits that im gonna try to breed with her thsi year.
Cody

Did you put one too many zeros?

Or was there really a pair of patternless snow southerns for $1100?!

If you cross that snake with a normal pine what you'd end up with is a half NORMAL pine. Point being the snake you mention is the basic BOTTOM of the gene pool and you want to know what the result would be for offspring. My guess is a clutch of half het.for snow normals...eha? I personally only breed quality stock and recommend snow/snow-not-snow/normal. JB

I understand genetics. She bought this snake because she liked the way it looked. Now she is willing to let her breed. I dont have the option of another snow. probably get an albino though. My original question was what are the 3 visible morphs in the Patternless southern snow. If I breed her to an albino the babies would be all albinos het for anery and patternless correct? Im into the hondos not many pits. The price of the breeding pair of Patternless southern snow pines were around $1100.00. That was for an established pair. Dont remember who had them or where from. I have kinda looked around for babies as well and have come up short.
Cody

""I personally only breed quality stock and recommend snow/snow-not-snow/normal. JB""

Why would you say that? These days almost everyone has "quality stock". What is inferior quality???? Can you explain?

Many people would say Snow to normal is very worth while project as finding Anery or Axanthic Pines is near impossible. The one person I know who bred a supposed Anery to a Snow got all normals. I have been looking into this missing Anery/ Axanthic morph for a few years now and I am still hitting a dead end unless you count comments like "we had one and made hets and sold it".

If anything, anyone who owns a Snow male would be doing the hobby a favor by breeding it to a normal and holding back the babies to see what they produce when bred to each other or a parent.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Very well said. I'd be curious to hear a little more explanation as well.

Jeremy

I second that Jeremy!
I would like to hear more or know more about the history of the snows.

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Genesis 1:1

Beautiful animal there, Billy!

I might have to see into some of those gems in the near future!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks Doug!!
When I had a choice between the patterned and patternless snows, I picked the patterned one, although it was hard to not get a patternless one as well.
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Genesis 1:1

no offence tom to you personaly, I just don't get the red eye craze and don't mind others reading my post,which not so much directed at you as everybody thats reading this thread, BREED MORE NORMALS! JB Tom your in SRQ?

Id agree that albinos are genetic flaws but quite frankly that is why they are great for the pet trade. They are not fit for survival in the wild so why not keep them in a cage?

The only reason they are genetically flawed in the beginning is due to the fact that they stand out like a sore thumb and get picked off my predators before they pass on their genetics. Their overall health isnt effected. Only after excessive inbreeding takes place. Then of course things can get messed up, more and more mutations arise (sometimes new colors, other times its missing eyes etc)and more and more problems occur.

I am in agreement in that I don't really care for the different morphs floating around. I enjoy natural patterns and colors more. However, being that these snakes are dead to the wild anyway, I dont think it matters. It only becomes an issue when these morphs start getting inbred like crazy. Im talking thousands of generation i.e corn snakes. Of course with the rising attraction to Pituophis I think we will start seeing more and more of an issue arise as a result.

I have zero understanding of how genetics work and or anything about producing morphs but I do understand that an albino with little to no inbreeding in its family history is only genetically flawed because of the predator and UV issue. Your post makes it sound like because they are albino they will live only half the life of a normal phased. In the wild? probably. Being pampered in a cage? Id say the rate is about the same.

I think you my be right the fact is I don't raise albinos so I'm not experienced with them to argue but you all got the point I wanted to make and I wasn't tring to be disrespectful to anyone but man...and at least even those that don't like me anymore still understood and agree with what I was saying.

I think you my be right the fact is I don't raise albinos so I'm not experienced with them to argue but you all got the point I wanted to make and I wasn't tring to be disrespectful to anyone but man...and at least even those that don't like me anymore still understood and agree with what I was saying.

Hey JB,
I wouldn't say that I don't like you. As I said in my first post I was glad for you input. I just wish it could have gone in a civilized manner. I will apologize if my tone in my first post was a bit combative. I will also apologize for loosing my cool in the second. I am not a child either and haven't had anyone call me a name since I hit the six foot mark in the 7th grade. Obviously disrespect sits wrong with me.
I enjoy coming to this place and don't like seeing someone like Tom getting jumped on for his views, thoughts or opinions. I now understand that you weren't trying to be disrespectful but when you end a post with as heated and intense as yours was with "are we clear tom?", understand that it comes off like you are laying down the gauntlet. If you were the one being disrespected I would have done the exact same for you. I, like many other Pituophis people am more of a fan of the natural animals over many of the morphs. I still do not agree with your opinions regarding albino's, nor the name calling. I am sure that we would all like to see some pics of your animals. Best of luck to you and take care.

Jeremy

I'm sorry too for thinking of you as a Martha Stewart fan..haha and the "are we clear Tom" was probaly mistaken for being cockey but I am really only passionate about the snakes in Fla that are disappearing faster than the authorities think and not due to over collecting (which refreshes already weak gene pools) but due to the misdiagnoseis by Baby Boomer Mentalities that don't seem to realize that protecting the NON-native Pigs (whose sence of smell is 500 times better than a dogs) so people can hunt them on Wildfife Management Areas (or very large tracts of land) is fine but those WMAs are where snakes are loosing the battle, Roads and Pigs and Fireants are eliminating the larger snakes and nests from those areas at a 0 to 60 type rate not a slow trickle and like I said before, soon (20 years) all we will have left are captive snakes and the way things are going currently in the pet trade the snakes that we will have left will be from degraded genes from inbreeding albinos for thirty years. And the folks that do breed the normal color variant that I'm concerned about the most (the south Fla color variant) are breeding the pines from the north part of the state where they have distintive markings from other sub.species like the black anteirors and spots and eye masks like zoro. So again I did't meen to chew Tom out or you jer. I just read his post as if he was not aware of the genitc facts. and I know Tom Is a very knowledgeable guy, but every time I read a post from someone wanting to know what would happen if I cross this with this I can't help but post my views, and I'm not mistaken I have valuable, extencive experience collecting in Fla for twenty years (only (scarletkings and ratsnakes and only in the winter months) and I am positive I have the intimate feild knowledge that the FWC wishs they had...anyway heres a pic of a normal pine found in south Sararsota co. JB PS Tom SRQ is airport code for Sarasota Fla.

...........

JB I honestly think that you and I could sit and have a beer (or a few) and be on the same page. I completely understand your point of view now. Your input here is extremely valuable information and those that are reading it are thankful and glad that you have posted. Thanks and don't be a stranger. Take care.

Jeremy

btw: nice pics

Like I said, or at least I think I did....if I could get some het nothing Southerns I'd be sure to keep a pure het nothing line going. I am all for that as much as I am making morphs. Unfortunately for me either my timing is off and i miss opportunities or the Pines available have no definite history.

Like I always say, most morph likers also like normals. It seems most guys who do not like morphs have little tolerance for them. In this particular instance I can understand why. My only guess is if there ever was a time when Southerns were more readily available Northerns won the popularity contest and Southerns went the way of the morph. It really stinks to be at a show as huge as Daytona and not be able to find a normal Southern..... but what can ya do.

Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I think the Southerns are way under appreciated.
I have a nice pair of normals that may be ready to go next year but I don't know that I will breed them. I am getting the impression the babies will be hard to move
.
.

No, I would have figured you'd think the opposite? Normal het nothing Southerns are hard to find. Where'd you get yours from?
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

My male (pictured in my previous post), I bought as a sub-adult from a store, so I don't know it's background.

My female is from Andy Beleny. I believe this bloodline came north from the US about 15 years ago. I am pretty sure she is non-het.
She is a nice color. She is my fastest growing Pit by far. She is almost as big as the male now, who is a least a couple years older than her.

Female (a year ago):

Your pine's locality was from the st. cloud /kissimmee area possible more north judging from the small black flecking... but beautiful animal. JB

That is one sweet southern! I love the head contrasting with the body. Great looking animal.

Jeremy

What does caring about Pines future, and all the data have to do with disrespecting someone,......as in Tom's genetic question, "WHY"?

Again, I'm not asking this in a disrespectful "tone" either, so I hope it doesn't get answered with one. I just don't see the correlation here.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

No offence taken. I have been known to deliver similar replies from time to time haha
I have no idea what/where SRQ is??
I am near Austin if that's what you meant?
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I'm not positive about the snow, but most likely it is a combination of albino and anery. Those two mutant genes are generally recessive to the normal versions of the genes.

There was a thread here a year or so ago about patternless. It seems to be a dominant mutant gene.

If the snow patternless has a pair of albino mutant genes, a pair of anery mutant genes, and a patternless mutant gene paired with a normal gene, then snow patternless x normal produces
1/2 patternless (het albino, het anery, and the patternless mutant would be paired with a normal gene)
1/2 normal looking (het albino, het anery)

Paul Hollander

Thank you very much Paul. You answered every question I had.
Cody

Hi Paul, I have a pair of Patternless het Albinos that have produced for the past 5 or so years and the numbers of patternless and blotched vary. I only mention this since you said "half blotched and half patternless". I don't think the patternless trait in Pines is very predictable.
If you recall I have made posts about Snows and Anerys and the history on and off for years on this forum. Still not getting definitive answers....but I am still looking
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tom,....after reading all the posts, I definitely DO see what you were talking about!,....hmmm.(scratches head)

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Hi Tom, It was the responding posts in one of your threads that led me to believe that patternless is a dominant mutant gene.

I'm going to symbolize the patternless mutant gene as P and the normal alternative gene as p.

If patternless is a dominant mutant gene, then a patternless snake could have a patternless mutant gene paired with a normal gene (AKA heterozygous patternless = Pp). Or a patternless snake could have a pair of patternless mutant genes (AKA homozygous patternless = PP). A normal snake would be pp.

The possible breeding pairs with at least one patternless mutant gene in the mix are as follows:

PP x PP -->
all babies PP = patternless

PP x Pp -->
1/2 PP = patternless
1/2 Pp = patternless

PP x pp -->
All babies Pp = patternless

Pp x Pp -->
1/4 PP = patternless
2/4 Pp = patternless
1/4 pp = normal

Pp x pp -->
1/2 Pp = patternless
1/2 pp = normal

Tom, the original poster asked for the result of patternless x not patternless. You've got a pair of patternless, which is expected to produce a different fraction of patternless babies.

I'm giving the expected results for these matings, which assumes a number of things. For example, it assumes that the probabilities reflect a large number of offspring, say a couple of hundred if not a few thousand. A dozen can easily be off the expectation.

Another assumption is that a PP snake, a Pp snake, and a pp snake have an equal chance of survival. With some mutants, the PP equivalent animal has a higher chance of dieing before adulthood than a Pp or pp equivalent.

There are other assumptions that I don't have time or space to mention. If any is wrong, it would affect the proportion of patternless vs. normally blotched snakes from these matings.

By the way, Tom, if you can follow any of the early patternless babies from your mating, it would be interesting to know whether any of them are in matings that produce no normally patterned babies. It might be a PP.

A lot of this requires numbers to figure out. Got any records on the number of babies that are patternless vs. normal from that patternless x patternless mating?

Paul Hollander

here are my Southerns...the fisrt is a snow the second was sold as a S. Snow (red phase) the reddish one still has an attitude, he not only hisses and bluffs, he bites, although it just leaves little scratches and an occasional tooth, I'm getting sick of it. I've been working with him more lately.

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1.1 Jungle Carpet Python (both gorgeous)
1.1 Ball Python (normals, he said proudly)
3.3 hatchling ball pythons (normals)
1.1 Ball Python (het for albino)(gonna make my own albino)
1.1 Corn Snake (Okeetee, Sunglow x Snow)
0.1 Gray band Kingsnake (Blairs)
1.1 Desert Kingsnake
1.0 Andean Milksnake (het Inca phase)
1.0 Bullsnake (normal)(my garbage disposal snake)
1.1 Bullsnake (red bulls)
1.1 Black Pine Snake
1.1 Southern Snow Pine (snow)(red phase snow)
1.1 Mexican Pine snake
1.1 Black Milk snake
1.0 Western Hognose (possible het albino)
1.0 Rhodesian Ridgeback (Hondo)
0.1 Spouse (WC)(hates the herps,and not real crazy about the dog)

.
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TomsSnakes.com

When I asked this question I didnt mean for all this to go on. It was a simple question that I have looked for the answers before. I think of Kingsnake as a great place for BEGINNERS and the experienced keepers to learn and share knowledge. I cant count how many times that I have referred people to this site. i will continue to do so because of people like Tom, Paul, Jeremy. Everyone needs to start somewhere. thanks
Cody

ps If anyone knows a good Pit. genetic site please let me know.