Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It was the end of November. Quite cold at the time. But I still kept an eye out for rattlers as my little dog, Wiggles, and I went on our daily desert walk. We were on a dirt road as I scanned the terrain for snakes when Wiggles darted around a sage bush that was next to the road in the direction of another sage bush off the trail after a lizard. I followed right behind her to see if there was anything else inside the bush besides the lizard and soon after passing the first bush, right out in the open, BAM a Diamondback struck at me missing my leg by merely a breath. I jumped away from it and grabbed my dog and then stood there gazing at its beauty. He raised above it's coils and buzzed at us till we left. I was so very grateful that it had missed hitting me... and also Wiggles, for she had to have either run over it or right beside it during her lizard pursuit. She probably startled it as it was basking in the sun... and then it struck at me. Anyway... I don't care how careful you are, something can happen in a blink of an eye when you're out in nature.

I read the recent topic on what to do if you're bitten and will remember all the advice given. I didn't know if I could ask my questions on that thread so I started a new one. For one, what kind of venom does a Diamondback have? Then too... I'm super allergic to everything and doubt I would be able to handle the anti-venom. I say this because I've heard that the old kind is made in eggs and the new kind is made with papaya. I'm allergic to both eggs and paypaya. With this... what would have been in store for me if I had been tagged? I hope that made sense.

Well, as you didn't mention where said desert was, I'll cover a couple of species.

Crotalus atrox (Western Diamondback) venom is highly necrotic (causing massive tissue damage). It has agents that inhibit clotting, so you get a lot of bleeding and swelling. Many doctors perform a fasciotomy as part of treatment, which is essentially slicing open the swollen limb to allow circulation, as the swelling can be so profuse that it compresses the blood vessels. Opening the limb takes the pressure off the vessels and allows blood flow.

The initial bite burns terribly from most accounts. The choices are a tourniquet which, while preventing the spread of the toxin, will localize and concentrate the damage. On a leg this could mean possible loss of some use of your leg versus total amputation of the foot. Localizing the damage usually means that smaller area suffers far more concentrated damage.

Crotalus scutulatus (Mojave Rattlesnake) is an entirely different bite. The bite is usually devoid of the usual pain, swelling, and bleeding, although some do have a hemorrhagic component. Often a Mojave bite could be mistaken for a “dry” bite where you get punctures, but no envenomation. Presuming the bite of a Mojave was “dry” based on localized reaction can be a dire mistake.

The major components of Mojave venom are neurotoxic. Difficulty keeping the eyelids open, blindness, tingling lips and tongue, paralysis, and difficulty breathing can begin to manifest shortly after the bite. Total paralysis of the diaphragm and heart can follow. If you are SURE it was a Mojave a tourniquet is a good idea in this case, as it prevents the neurotoxins from reaching the heart and diaphragm as quickly.

As far as antivenin and allergies, I’m not sure where you got your information about eggs and fruit, but (as far as I know) groceries play NO part in the manufacture of antivenin.

Antivenin is simply antibodies…just like YOUR body produces to fight off any other invader in your blood such is a virus or infection. They produce this by introducing the venom into an animal that has a strong natural resistance to snake venom. The animals that are regularly used are cows, sheep, horses, and goats. The animal’s system reacts by producing antibodies to target that venom. Some of their blood is then harvested and the antibodies separated. This is then bottled (often freeze-dried first) and shipped to hospitals or antivenin reserve centers. When a person is treated for envenomation these antibodies are introduced into the patient’s bloodstream, and they attack the molecules of venom and break them down.

While antivenin is very successful in doing so, the greatest risk is allergic reaction to the foreign antibodies. Anaphylactic shock is a possibility. The most extreme cases can result in cardiac arrest. Patients are monitored and, at the first indications of allergic reaction, large does of Benadryl usually follow.

For those who keep venomous reptiles in their collections, as well as those who work in zoos, this is the major issue that prevents them from keeping antivenin on hand and self-treating themselves for a bite. It's not the reaction to the venom, it's reaction to the treatment. LOL

Perhaps, someday, they will develop a synthetic or otherwise more human-friendly antivenin.

Not much to worry about with treatment. Also, it's pretty unusual for a hiker just to be tagged while walking. It doesn't happen very often. Glad to hear that you and your pup are safe.

Unless I'm mistaken, the main reason for the allergies is due to the animals used to make the AV. Horses were a great animal to use for vaccines and AV because they are large bodied and more blood can be drawn from them. As children, our vaccines were mostly made in horses. Due to the large amount of horse protein being injected into our body, there was sometimes an allergic reaction.

You can't be allergic to proteins that you've never been exposed to in the past. So, you wouldn't be allergic to the venom itself. Also, with the new goat (?) serum, the chances of being allergic to proteins there are slim.

Again, it's been a few years since I've looked into this stuff, so I may be incorrect here and there and will accept that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

"If you are SURE it was a Mojave a tourniquet is a good idea in this case"

You should never use a tourniquet. A pressure bandage is a much better, less disfiguring idea. Simply tightly wrap up around the bitten area and up the extremity and then apply a splint (hopefully you do not receive a bite on the trucnk of the body or head). This wont cut off circulation but will slow the progression of the venom, usualy enough to make it to a medical facility.

As was noted, this should only be used for Neurotoxic bites (i.e the Mojave rattlesnake).

As for the eggs, I read something about India (I think?) trying to manufacture AV through eggs. I have no idea of any of the details but I do remember reading it somewhere.

Papaya is a new one for me.

I have elapids. I don't know WHY I was thinking torniquet. *rolls eyes*

Glad you caught that. At 45, am I too young for Alzheimers? LOL

Thank you so much for your words. I appreciate it.

I live in New Mexico right by the El Paso Texas state line. It was a Western Diamondback. Sorry I didn't include where I live in my first post.

I heard about the eggs and the papaya on a program called Venom ER several years ago. I remember the doctor/poisonous snake pro asking if the girl that had gotten bitten was allergic to papaya because the new antivenin was made from/in/with(?) papaya. He also said that the old style antivenin was made from/in/with (?) eggs.... or something like that. I'm old too, LOL, and I may have gotten the correct wording wrong. All I know is that when I heard it I freaked because I'm allergic to these things. What are the names of these two antivenin, does anyone know? I sorta remember the new one, but don't know how to spell it.

I used to live on WSMR as an early teen. I am envious. The area is simply breath taking

As for normal AV manufacturing, most companies use horse or goats for the production. Alot of folks have problems with horse made product due to being allergic to horses.

The area is home to quite a few species of rattlesnake but all are secretive and retiring. If you stay on a path and leash your dog I doubt you will ever have a negative encounter with one again. If you see them there really isnt any threat unless you pester or attempt to catch them. The problem lies when you dont see them so based on that fact I would stay on teh trail while walking with your dog and always scout out an area before you go off the trail where the snakes will blend in better.

"I live in New Mexico right by the El Paso Texas state line. It was a Western Diamondback."

You sound awfully positive. What was your identification based on?

As the venoms are completely different, misidentification could result in tragedy. With a neurotoxic venom you might want to apply a pressure bandage, but if you do that with a western diamondback bite you could very well cause irreparable damage to the envenomated limb.

In El Paso it could be a Western Diamondback OR a Mojave…or even possibly a Prairie Rattlesnake.

Agreed. however, in that area it seem most lily to be a WDB. Though all species you listed are known from there, C.atrox is hands down the most common. Still, the all occupy similar environmental niches and it can be difficult to distinguish between Mojave and WDBs since they share a very similar appearance.

I think (please correct me if I am wrong) that the highly neruotoxic Mojave come from Arizona. Not every Mojave has neurotoxic venom from the way I understand it. Only certin populations.

To the OP: keep in mind that there are also a few different species of smaller rattlesnakes that occupy the mountains in that area. Though all are less dangerous they do look different and if your hiking you could see them. However, if you do you will be the envy to many snake fanatics C.wilidri is one of the rarest snakes in the US and does occur in tthe mountains of SW NM.

At first I thought it was a Prairie Rattler till I researched it through the National Audoubon Society book (and the internet). The pattern, the way it raised up over its coils and stood its ground, the head and neck size, etc, changed my mind. Rather aggressive little cuss too... or just grumpy because it was cold out and he had just been startled by my dog, and then my big old foot almost stepped on him.

I also found a hatchling last year along this same road about 75 to 100 feet before this one. It had been run over but still in good shape so I brought it home (very carefully of course) and put it in my freezer. I still have it and will try to take a picture of it but I don't have a digital nor do I know how to put pix on here. I could send it in an email to one of you and you could put it on if you want to see it. I have to look at it again to see if it has the same type of pattern as the one I just encountered.

I also ran into some people shooting in the distance yesterday and the danged bullets were whizzing right above and beside me. What an errie noise... and feeling. I was petrified thinking I was going to get hit by one of them. I think I will have to change my desert walking location before I get killed or something. Geesh.

Whoooa....Papain is an enzyme uned to digest proteins, sometimes making serums. Pepsin is another one used in the digestion of proteins. Best to check with Protherics and see if papain (made from the fruit) were used in any step of the process. Anyway, if your bitten they would whack you with Sol-Medrol(steroid) and give you the serum anyway. One thing I know emergencie room MD's can treat is Anaphalxis.

Nice it missed you.

Al
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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

I'm still thanking God for not letting my moment of not paying attention to the trail be my demise. And that's all it takes, is a moment.

Thank you all for your words.
Happy herping.
MissHissss