Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have had, and love snakes for over forty years, and was a police officer for about twenty years.
The guy on the beach with the snake said he didn't see the difference between his snake and a dog; cat ;bird; whatever,
not that people should, but they do, a lot of people hate snakes!
This guy does not help our hobbie at all by showing up at a beach where hundreds of people of all ages are, knowing at lest half are scared to death of snakes!
Not Breaking the law, just not to smart!

Boneiface

I understand what your saying, but at the same time I refuse to feel like I have to keep my pasion "hidden" because of the fear of others. I don't like the mentality that I should keep my pets hidden for my own fear of upsetting the vastly ignorant general public. And while there are obviously millions who are terrified of snakes, there too are many, many people terrified of dogs but you can still take your dog to the park or beach. So why NOT take your snake out in public if you feel the need to?
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)

I'm on your side, but its that vast general public terrified of snakes you talk about that can change Laws.
Reptile bans!
Put a rubber snake on a country road, and watch how many cars go out of their way to hit it. ( sad )!

Boneiface

"Put a rubber snake on a country road, and watch how many cars go out of their way to hit it. ( sad )!"

Yeah, no doubt! I stopped once to move a black rat snake out of the road, but before I could get my hands on him, three cars came flying through and purposely crushed him!

About the guy with the snake on the beach: I again understand your concern. But at the same time, where do you draw the line? My old apartment knew I had snakes and didn't have a problem, but I still didn't feel comfortable about taking them outside in my fenced in yard, and it bothered me that it bothered me (does that make sense?) Was it wrong for me to take them outside where neighbors might see? The front of the apartment was basically one large window...should I had felt like I had to close the blinds any time I got one out? Should I be afraid that someone might see me with one standing in front of the window? I wasn't breaking any rules, but someone could of seen me, complained, and the management might not allow them anymore. I own a house now, and should I feel uncomfortable to take them out in my yard for photos? Should I be worried that neighbors might see them, cause a big uproar and get local laws passed banning them? I don't want to feel that. I don't want to feel like I have to keep my pets a secret and hidden (which also will make it look like you're "up to no good" or doing something illegal)
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)

Yeah,......I fully agree with EVERYTHING that's been said so far on this issue, however, one thing I have found over several decades of snake keeping, is that the "majority" rules. This also applies to snakes, and the general public, as it would most other things too. There isn't a valid reason for this either, because if you used "reason" in the first place, there wouldn't be an issue. It's just the way things are.

I find that it's usually much easier NOT to let people know what you have in the way of snakes, than it is to "erase" a bad thought(or memory) of one from someone in the first place. More bad things can happen, than good, from people knowing you have snakes where you live. There are thousands of scenarios that can come back and "bite" a snake owner right square in the butt, that would not have otherwise happened if they just didn't show the snake , or let it be seen by someone. I agree,...this SUCKS,.........but it is reality just the same.

a favorite little saying of mine goes something like this when it comes to snakes,........"It's been this way since the beginning of time,.......and will continue this way, til the end of time"........ yes, man's ignorance and misunderstanding at it's very best!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Ditto what Doug said.

I have neighbors that have sent the D.E.C. to my home 3 times now.

This summer we are building a 7 foot tall privacy wall out in the back yard.

However, I do always give advance notice to anyone that if they wish to enter my house, they have to accept MY terms.

Sales people and those with propaganda have quit knocking on this door

I can already envision the complaints when I put up the Savannah Monitor paddock in the yard.

Over the years I have had to beg my neighbors to call me rather than chop up another garter or milk snake with a hoe. To us fear of snakes seems unfounded, but to others a real phobia. Even a religious inspired fear of evil.

Regarding the guy on the beach, I find it sad whenever anyones primary interest is using a Boa or Python as a decoration to look like they are cool.

I doubt they maudle much when they lose a pet...

I'm not judging everyone, but I have seen too many folks that get off instilling fear on others, and the real victim is the snakes.

Peace,
Wayne A. Harvey

"Regarding the guy on the beach, I find it sad whenever anyones primary interest is using a Boa or Python as a decoration to look like they are cool.

I doubt they maudle much when they lose a pet...

I'm not judging everyone, but I have seen too many folks that get off instilling fear on others, and the real victim is the snakes."

'AMEN' to that.

The guy probably wouldn't have gotten away with that here, pets aren't allowed on most of the beach and they only just recently opened a very small section for people to take their dogs on the beach.

I had a friend in high school who used to take her baby ball python with her to the mall, letting it curl on her shoulder/chest under her shirt. She thought it was funny when it would poke its head out and scare little old ladies. I never did find the humor in that.
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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake possible mix (Eddie Gein)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

(I coulda swore i already posted this, but i guess not...anyways)Sheltering people from a fear doesn't help them to overcome that fear, in fact, shielding them from the fear only serves to reinforce their belief that it SHOULD be feared. I don't want my right to do perfectly legal and moral activities, like taking my snake out to a place that allows them, simply because somebody is afraid of them. That isn't fair to me. Some people are terrified of cars, but you don't see people struggling every morning with the ethics of driving to work. As long as it's not illegal, I don't think we should let other people's thoughts and feelings affect what we do.
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-Jacob

"Math counts for gum.. gotta chew something while in math or you'll bloody scream." -Laura a.k.a. Priincezz93

"I find it sad whenever anyones primary interest is using a Boa or Python as a decoration to look like they are cool."

This is the quote I was saying 'amen' to. Yes, take your snakes out in public WHEN they are allowed, I have no problems with that. But when people ONLY take them out to get the shock value or to stroke their own egos, it gets a bit out of hand. There are just some times you just don't take your pets out.

Should I put a bridle on my horse and lead him through the mall? I'm proud of him, he likes the exercise, so why shouldn't I take him to the beach or stroll downtown? Oh, that's right, because there are laws against it. Something about livestock being within town limits.

My former sister-in-law, who was president of our reptile and amphibian society here in Bay County, constantly has her herps at the Junior Museum where she works, giving the youngsters a good education about our cold-blooded friends. It's awesome, but it's also in an environment where they're expected to be. People who have a phobia of snakes don't tend to go into the museum, or they do just to look. Thus, the public is educated and no one calls the cops. >_<

I've dealt with people who have phobias of snakes as well. I had a neighbor in New Mexico years ago who had a very irrational phobia of snakes, to the point that she called the cops when she found a "snake" in the pool. The "snake" turned out to be a piece of rope, but there's no accounting for common sense.

Anyway, most buildings and public areas around here are very specific that NO PETS ARE ALLOWED unless they're leading the blind. Can we teach a seeing-eye snake? I guess that would be a smelling-tongue snake...
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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake possible mix (Eddie Gein)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

That wasn't the point i was trying to make...I was trying to say that there is no proof that he was taking his snake out for the sole purpose of scaring people (if it is the Ocean Force episode, which nobodys answered me about yet), or to make himself look cool. I agree it is wrong for people to take an animal into public for that reason. Also, i dont believe it is wrong to take something in an area it isn't expected to be in, if it is not illegal for it to be there. We run into the unexpected all the time. You don't expect knick knacks to be sold at a small reptile shop, but my favorite reptile shop has miniatures for sale. Does that make it so she shouldn't sell them there anymore? You can only expect things you know about, so if you only do things you expect, you are only doing things you already know about, therefor there are no new experiences, and no way to learn new things.
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-Jacob

Knowledge is gained by asking the question "Why?", but true wisdom only comes from asking "Why not?". -Me

"You can only expect things you know about, so if you only do things you expect, you are only doing things you already know about, therefor there are no new experiences, and no way to learn new things."

This is true, however, there are an awful lot of people out there who would rather not learn new things. They'd rather call the cops and complain, thus giving our scaly friends more bad press.

I work at a local news station. I have for years. One of the reporters I used to work with enjoyed showing herps during his live shots, especially when my former sister-in-law had some activity going on at the museum. One of my favorite live shots from back then was when I had one of her beautiful banded kingsnakes chilling out on my headset while I was behind the camera. I try to assist with as much "good press" for herps as I can.

I was crushed a week or two ago when I found out that one of the reporters I currently work with smashed the head of a black racer because it was in his yard. I told him what a harmless snake it was, how he didn't need to kill it, and that it was not venomous. His response? "All snakes are poisonous. If I think that way, then I won't get bitten."

*shakes head sadly* I'm worried about taking my snake in with me to work now, even though I had planned on it. I don't want him to freak and kill my baby. :/

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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake possible mix (Eddie Gein)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

Again, governing your actions on another's opinion. I don't know how to say this nicely, but please know that i mean it in the nicest way possible: if you are responsible with your snake, and keep him in your sight, or better yet, on you, at all times, I personally see no reason why you couldn't bring him/her to work with you, especially if you warn the person who is afraid that you are bringing it, and assure him that your snake is not venomous, and will not bite him. Even if he doesn't believe you, you have at least taken all steps you could have. Sorry to put it blunt, but i couldn't find a nicer way to say that. I AM a nice person, you know . Ha ha. Anyways, i don't want to argue, i just wanted to say my opinion about the subject.
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-Jacob

Knowledge is gained by asking the question "Why?", but true wisdom only comes from asking "Why not?". -Me

I think the point here is that he was at a place where pets ARE legal. You're post used an anology of taking a horse into a mall to show it off. That's different from what we're talking about cause this guy WAS NOT breaking any laws! Had he taken it in a mall or a restaurant that didn't allow animals, then he would be in the wrong, but he wasn't in a place like that.
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)

Exactly! Thanks again Dave, you always seem to be able to say what i'm thinking better than i even THOUGHT it. Good job, and what a killer skill!
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-Jacob

Knowledge is gained by asking the question "Why?", but true wisdom only comes from asking "Why not?". -Me

I fully understand far too much of the phobic publics problem with snakes, as I have talked, and written about this subject for years. After it's all said and done, the majority of the public is the "squeeky wheel" that gets the provervial "grease", that seems to be the bottom line, like it, or not(I for one don't). Even though there might NOT be specific laws against taking a snake to a certain area where OTHER pets might be allowed by law, a snake is viewed by most of the ignorant public as something to be feared, however ridiculous this way of thinking(or NOT thinking)is, this is fact, this I think we all agree upon. But when we as snake owners take them out to these places, or other places, and want to stand firm in defiance of our right to take a pet snake out, this is EXACTLY what can, and does cause these very anti-snake laws to be passed. The city would MUCH rather side with "Joe Blow" snake hater, than he would with trying to upease one, or a few snake owners. They figure, okay, this(or these) snake owners are becoming a problem with the majority population of opheophobes, so we will just make it simple,........NO MORE SNAKES!....this is true reality, and this is the way the city law makers easily do this, because they have millions of other idiots that will definitely be on their side.

This is not fare, or justified at all, this is simply the way things are today.

~Doug

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I understand your point, but i don't think we should coddle and shield the public from their fears, because it doesn't help them to overcome them. They would think "Well they are hiding them, and keeping them locked up. They MUST be dangerous!". BUT, the main thing is i don't want MY rights to be stripped, simply because some people are ignorant and panicky. I understand that there are going to be consequences, but I just don't like the idea of having to hide in fear, simply because of the fear of others.
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-Jacob

Knowledge is gained by asking the question "Why?", but true wisdom only comes from asking "Why not?". -Me

>>> i don't think we should coddle and shield the public from their fears, because it doesn't help them to overcome them.

>>> I just don't like the idea of having to hide in fear, simply because of the fear of others.

*** This is GREAT in theory, and I COULD NOT agree with you more!,..........but it is NOT me that needs the convincing.

Like I have said in the past, a few educatable youngsters tend to be good candidates for learning about them, given the right environment, but as I have ALSO said before, nobody will EVER, EVER be able to change the "mind-set" of the vast numbers of the general public, this will NOT happen, I'm as sure of this as the Sun setting tomorrow.

One fact that I mentioned before that is SURELY "etched in stone", and that was a phrase I used in another post,........"It's been this way since the beginning of time,.....and will continue until the end of time"..........

I wish ANYONE good luck in changing this phenomena that's been a strong part of human society for MANY THOUSANDS of years!

Being 48 years old, and owning thousands of snakes since the young age of seven,....I have seen just about every possible scenario involving snakes,......,and one thing that I have concluded, and that is the large pecentage of the population are idiots where snakes are involved, this ALSO includes police, because like I mentioned before, they feel COMPELLED in their duty to "serve" the opheophobic(fear of snakes) public.

Long story short,....go ahead and exercise your right to carry a snake somewhere,..........just don't be suprised when a big problem arises.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I'm not talking about shoving them in peoples faces and trying to say they're not dangerous, i mean just taking it out and doing stuff like the paranoid idiots aren't there. I honestly couldn't care less what other people think. Forget everybody else, if i'm minding my own business. I understand there will probably be problems, but i am not in the wrong for doing so, so if i want to do it, i will deal with the consequences. People don't keep their dogs hidden inside just because there might be somebody afraid of dogs out there, and i know the metaphor isn't the same, but it is similar. Bottom line, and i don't want to argue, this is just my opinion: I am not going to let other peoples fears influence what i do, or deprive me of my rights.
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-Jacob

Knowledge is gained by asking the question "Why?", but true wisdom only comes from asking "Why not?". -Me

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Kinda like talking to a brick wall, they just don't get it,
But they will be giving them up!
Please let me know when life is fair (Heaven)
Mark

I just don't want it ruined for me just because some blockhead doesn't have the common sense to know that if im taking it out, it isn't dangerous.
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-Jacob

Knowledge is gained by asking the question "Why?", but true wisdom only comes from asking "Why not?". -Me

>>>"Please let me know when life is fair"

Yes, the VERY point I was trying to get across.

When ALL snakes are banned from ownership, my point will be well made, but only far too late. I hope THAT part of my point is NEVER made though.

I(and others like me)have FAR TOO MUCH to loose if/when this happens. If I only "dabbled" in the hobby, and only owned say, one cornsnake, or garter snake, it might not be so profound, but since this is not the case,.....keeping snakes very "low-key" is the better way to go. Many, many others see it this way too, as I'm sure you do.

What many do NOT understand, is the fact that FFWC(Florida Fish and Wildlife Commision) already has in place where I used to live, the regulation of having a permit for over eleven(11) snakes owned for the purpose of educational/reptile show sales. This you MUST have in order to sell/display snakes at shows,etc..., as they sometimes randomly check these shows out, and see who has the needed permits,.....if not, BYE BYE SNAKES!. So this fact alone is plenty of info to trace down to someone when and if the "S@%*" hits the fan for laws stating no more ownership. I for one, don't need the problem and aggravation, as don't all the OTHER "hardcore" snake breeder/hobbyists. Judjing from your previous post, you FULLY understand this.

"Jeez officer!,....ya, a cornsnake IS a "constrictor", but c'mon!!!".........

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

As you said, theory and practice are very different...I don't plan on doing anything that may jeopradize (sp?) my rights, until i have a very good and clear game plan, so don't worry about me. The point i am simply trying to make, is that it is a very odd thing to fight so viciously for a right that you do not use for fear of using it. It makes no sense. And not only that, but you attack anybody who talks about exercising that right, AND you are going to be more mad than anybody else when we do (inevitably, as is life) lose that right, because you never got a chance to use it. Kind of a get busy living, or get busy dying, thing. I mean no disrespect to anybody, but sometimes i say things bluntly, because i can't think of any other way to say it, so i AM sorry if I've offended anybody.
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-Jacob

Knowledge is gained by asking the question "Why?", but true wisdom only comes from asking "Why not?". -Me

It's being able to still OWN snakes AT ALL that is much more important to me, than it is being able to walk around with one in public where other people might be. That is the MAIN issue. And if you do the LATTER, there's a very good chance of not being able to do the FORMER,.......EVER AGAIN!

It's really about the "broader" issue, not just about focusing on being able to walk around with a snake outside where others might be. If one day, you are not allowed to OWN any snakes, you certainly won't be able to enjoy walking around outside with any snakes,.....now will you?...........see where this is going?

I'm saying all this so you and I can CONTINUE to own snakes for years to come. This is a much bigger problem than I think you might be aware of.

I'm trying to be as informative as I can, so you can grasp just how serious this snake thing with the public REALLY is, without coming across as being too blunt, because I certainly don't mean it personally in any way.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

hey, I think we've said it MANY times that we understand what you're saying...we just don't agree!! We don't agree that we should run and hide cause others might be scared! That might work for you, but it doesn't work for me.
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)

Along with all this huge public problem with snakes, I forgot to add one more VERY significant thought for you. As you already are aware of, snake's don't go real well with most of the public, this we ALL know,....and there are already tons of stupid laws and ordinances, and rules regarding them as we speak, and always getting worse by the day. So if you want to continue enjoying your snakes, it is far better that you NOT raise a lot of "feathers" with people no matter how ridiculous it seems to us snake owners, because what this does, is give the ignorant general public(snake haters) even MORE fuel to pass even more snake restricting laws than there are NOW. It's hard to believe that things can get a whole lot worse than they are now, but as we speak, on the books ready for legislation are laws that will take effect banning MANY snakes from being owned/imported, etc...

This is a battle that will NOT be won by pissing more people off by seeing them out and about, this can ONLY be correctly fought through paperwork to legislators, etc.. NOT by exposing more snakes to people out in public, this is an EXTREMELY big, and "touchy" subject that has been going on for many years.

I know you don't want to get "walked on" by a bunch of animal ignorant idiots, and neither do I, nor do THOUSANDS of other responsible snake hobbyists, but this is something that can, and usually does tend to "back-fire" instead of going in a positive direction. Trust me on this, more bad things will be the outcome, not better things with public snake exposure.

I'm not sure how long you've been involved with snakes, but like I mentioned earlier, I've seen over four decades worth of crap involving snakes, and the common factor is, ......it gets only worse, not better.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I understand what your saying, but...how should i put this...it will probably never get to a point where it will be ACCEPTABLE for snakes to be in general public areas where other pets are allowed. The way things are going, it may even get to the point where it will be ILLEGAL to do so. If the Boa and Python ban does go through (god forbid), that is just going to give people the confidence they need to fuel MORE bans, until it will get to the point where it will be illegal to own a garden hose because it looks kinda like a snake, in the half light of dawn, and that scares people. I'm not saying "enjoy it while you can", but everything new and different is inherently feared, so bringing a snake out into public will cause shocks, screams, and all that, for a while, but if you start in a small area, eventually the people will get used to it, then they will interrupt the idiots that say that corn snakes are as dangerous as a lion, and it will ripple. To use my neighborhood as an example, i live in a cul-de-sac in a trailer court, and i would probably start with my neighbors, and then go to the whole cul-de-sac, then my block, and so forth. Some times it's enough to know that we CAN do something, and not have to go DO it, but i don't think this should be the case here. What is the point in being able to do it, if we don't anyways??? And then you fight to keep the right you are CHOOSING not to exercise? I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. Now, all i have just said, hasn't been TRIED yet, as far as i know, not even by me, but fighting for a right you do not use is a waste of energy.
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-Jacob

Knowledge is gained by asking the question "Why?", but true wisdom only comes from asking "Why not?". -Me

I had been resisting further comment, but what Doug is saying reminds me of an incident right here very close to home.

A friend of mine six houses down used to keep Vipers, My oldest daughter was friends with Bruce's kids and spent the night there more than once in the same room, I was fine with it.

These snakes were kept very well, the enclosures were works of art, husbandry top notch and there is currently no law in the books prohibiting the keeping of vipers, so all seemed well.

WRONG! Someone Else's kid did a sleepover, then told mommy or daddy about the vipers...

Next day CPS showed up, DEC and the local police. They cited that Bruce was endangering his own children, and his vipers pose a public threat, and IF one were to get loose it COULD bite an innocent person, SO they confiscated Bruce's snakes.

He never once took them out in open view either!

The point is, Irrational fears will always outweigh rational thought. What most of us see as beauty to admire, others will see quite the opposite.

That's all,
Wayne

The lesser of the "evils" is the best path for us in this "opheophobic"(fear of snakes) society we live in.

Being too adamant about snake exposure usually tends to work in the opposite direction, and usually makes things worse, not better for all snake keepers.

e.g. Question** what's the reason for this, one might ask?

Answer** Because it's been this way for THOUSANDS of years.

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

"Answer** Because it's been this way for THOUSANDS of years. "

Very true. In general, people will not change. Why? Because even their religious books tell them that snakes are evil. Bringing them out in public doesn't seem to help, I mean, look at our medical symbols... have those changed people's minds about snakes?

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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake possible mix (Eddie Gein)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

The general consensus in the forums seems to be that we're all doomed no matter what we do, so why the hell don't we just exercise the rights we have now, instead of waiting till they're gone, then bellyaching about how they were taken away for no reason WHEN YOU NEVER USED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! THATS the point i'm trying to get across, is if you never choose to exercise your rights, you have no right to complain when they are taken away. Kinda like a little kid crying when a toy he never even knew he had is taken away. It's pointless, and a waste of energy. If everybody accepts the inevitable (which it seems they have, along with accepting that the inevitable IS inevitable), then why worry about what can happen, if what we do doesn't matter one way or the other, just enjoy what you can, while you still can.
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-Jacob

Knowledge is gained by asking the question "Why?", but true wisdom only comes from asking "Why not?". -Me

gotta agree with zulu on this one, maybe herpers are not on the same scale (no pun intended) but a lot of things started out this way, civil rights, gay rights, the right to carry a firearm for self defense, etc. At the beginning of each of those times the prevailing wisdom was to keep your head down and not rock the boat. instead a few did rock the boat, and changed things. there are few of us so we need to be noisy but not obnoxious, factual but at a third grade level (typical politician mental capacity) and most of all we need to have our snakes out there, educating the public. When i bring my snakes out i get the inevitable eww response, followed by lots of questions, and then the can i touch it? of course i'm not carrying around a 9ft boa but the more ppl who get educated or desensitized to the presence of snakes, while not owners themselves, might remember "the snake guy" that they had such a positive experience with.

case in point: neighbor and her 12 yo daughter stopped by the house on feeding day, both terrified of everything (dogs, cats, snakes, spiders etc.) I mentioned that my snakes was feeding and to please keep as quiet as possible. well both of them were fascinated, they had never seen anything like that b4. i showed them into my snake room, a little squeamish at first but totally enthralled with the snake. i won't say they lost their fear of snakes at that point, but it did make an impression, and later the daughter even asked to touch the snake. did I make a difference? maybe, in a small way, i hope.

sticking our heads in the sand is not going to help our cause. most ppl have never even seen a real snake up close b4. and many if introduced properly, and educated a little would, i think take away a very different attitude towards our hobby. plus it gives us a chance to dispel all those ridiculous rumours about snakes some ppl have.
mike
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..1 Jayne "The Hero of Canton", Ball Python
..1 Edmund Slackbladder, Mexican Kingsnake
..1 El Diablo "They haven't built a cage I can't get out of" Pueblan Milksnake
(Currently serving 25 to life in a Maryland Supermax
______________________________________________________

Me; And finally monsieur a wafer thin pinkie
El Diablo: blaggh
Me: ah sir its only 1 leetle pink one
ED: ahh, sod off! I'm full
Me: ah sir hmm? its only wafer thin?
ED: bah! i couldn't eat another thing I'm absolutely stuffed. bugger off!
Me: ah sir, sir just ...just one......?
ED: ok just one
Me just the one.
Me: voila!
Me: bon appetite!.......

I'm not concerned with the good herpers, personally. I'm concerned with the bad ones who release their 12 foot pythons when they get "too big to handle" and who are not responsible with their snakes when they do take them out. Those are the ones who increase problems.

I was at the Junior Museum here today, where my former sister-in-law has many local snakes in display cages for children and adults to view. A group of elderly ladies (Red Hat Society) came through to see the crime scene event and happened to walk by the reptiles on their way in. Only two of the ladies thought the snakes were beautiful, but both said that when they find snakes in their yards they kill them. Most of the other ladies were convinced that the snakes in the tanks were venomous, even though she and I assured them they were not. They all visibly shuddered when she mentioned that she feeds the herps every Thursday and that the public is welcome to come view them. One lady said she used to like snakes until she held one and now she can't stand them.

It was interesting to see a good-sized portion of our local voters and their natural reactions to snakes. Even the two ladies who thought the snakes were beautiful, if faced with legislation to limit snake ownership, I would bet they'd vote in favor of the limitations. It's human nature, even if they "like" the snakes.

By the way, next time I'm there, I'm going to take my camera in and get some pictures of her beautiful snakes. She even has one Florida Pinesnake in there.
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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake possible mix (Eddie Gein)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

I really don't know how to reply to that, because we've just been trading the exact same things, just differently (same crap different smell, kinda thing), and it's not getting either one of us anywhere. Any reply i would have to that would be pretty much the same thing as any of my previous posts, and the reply to that would be the same as one of your previous posts, so i'll just wait and see what happens, see if anybody has something new to add.
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-Jacob

Knowledge is gained by asking the question "Why?", but true wisdom only comes from asking "Why not?". -Me

I agree with you. Taking a snake out in public like that will never change the minds of those who hate snakes. It will just give them more reason to hate herpers and their snake pets.

Responsible ownership does not fuel the rampant bans of reptile pets, it is the irresponsible acts we do that in part leads to more laws.
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Mark

And it's irresponsible to take a perfectly harmless boa out on a beach? You'd be more likely to be attacked by the police than the snake.
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-Jacob

"Math counts for gum.. gotta chew something while in math or you'll bloody scream." -Laura a.k.a. Priincezz93

you're right, HydraZulu! I don't see how it's "irresponsible" to, basically, NOT act like a criminal! You shouldn't take your snake out in public and chase people, or do things to purposely scare them, cause that hurts the hobby, but simply exercising your right to take your pet outdoors where pets are allowed is not "irresponsible". Doesn't that mentality of "keep them hidden" reinforce their belief more? When people see others being secretive about things, they instantly think "that person has something to hide, and you only hide things that are illegal and wrong".
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 Dumeril's boa (Hannibal)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
0.0.1 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amel. corn snake (Morgan LaFay) RIP
0.0.2 baby corns (Romulus and Remus)
- 1 normal, 1 ghost
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.1 garden phase amazon tree boas (Pegasus, Lenore)
0.0.1 baby yellow amazon tree boa (affectionately called
Snuggles)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (maybe Octavian)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 bassett hound/black and tan coonhound mix (Luke)
0.1 Boxer (Zoe)
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)
2.0 rats (Pan, no name yet)

Yeah, because if it IS the Ocean Force episode, (stop me any time if it ISN'T) that i think it is, all he was doing was sitting on a retaining wall, that was a couple feet from the sidewalk. So sitting on a 4 foot high brick wall with your pet is irresponsible? The cops also bickered with him for putting his boa in a backpack.
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-Jacob

"Math counts for gum.. gotta chew something while in math or you'll bloody scream." -Laura a.k.a. Priincezz93

I hear what you guys are saying. "Irresponsible" was the wrong word for me to use. I should have said that taking a boa to the beach is not good judgement. It is legal, but not wise. Not for the snake, and not for the acceptance of our pets.
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Mark

If you check out my post below....I have had this happen with large breed dogs. It is a general phobia. It is preception. Remember the cops that shot the boy when shooting at a rat snake in a tree? How about the tv show cops, I caught an episode when they were beating a black ratsnake to bits because it was climbing near someone's house? The thing is that they are supposed to protect, I get that and I have friends that are law enforcement, but when they do dumb things this way they come off poorly and they perpetuate the irrational phobias.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

Are you referring to the episode of Ocean Force: Huntington Beach that was on last night, or the night before? I put a post up about that, but its kinda the opposite of yours. It's called "Sad, but not surprising." I'll go more in-depth if you like, but for now i'll keep it brief: If what the man was doing was "legal", then why did the cops pretty much force him to stop? I think that's abusing power.
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-Jacob

"Math counts for gum.. gotta chew something while in math or you'll bloody scream." -Laura a.k.a. Priincezz93

This subject does seem to have a lot of interest.

Sometimes I forget that many snakes are kept by city dwellers, After all they are the ultimate stealth pet. silent and always happy to hide for the landlord.

So maybe all this poor guy was trying to do is let his best friend experience the sun and feel the ground, That in itself should not be a bad thing.

"Disorderly Conduct" has a very broad definition, and the law will exploit that every time.

Peace

HAHA!, you're little cop car pic looks like something I would post..LOL!...too funny!

And yes, when the uneducated public is involved, as the post I used of the guy being dragged off by the cops because a caller was "frightened" is a perfect example of this. Like you said, cops tend to feel compelled to "side" with the thought(s) of the masses, especially a snake issue. And again like you stated, whatever they tell you(or "suggest" you do) is basically taken as "disorderly" if not complied with by said snake owner. This VERY Same thing has happened to me before decades ago in Ft. Lauderdale when I was much younger, ironically it was on the beach too..LOL! I was even on TV with an 11 foot Burmese Python on a show called "PM Magazine" when they were filming "Where the Boys Are" on the beach.

Times are MUCH different now then they were back then, and I used to be able to bring snakes(kingsnakes, milksnakes) to many places, even a few bars believe it or not, for the purpose of conversation, etc... and there was a good amount of interest from many. But this is something I would NEVER even consider doing nowadays.

Those were different times. Snakes will continue to remain a "taboo" subject for as long as man populates the earth, I just don't see that fact ever changing much. We are a very small exception to the population that understand most snakes are as harmless as a goldfish.

~Doug

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"