Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The recreational crowd has argued that there are so few commercial folks that they are not worth supporting because of their perceived negative actions. These negative actions include, among other things, that they harvest a great deal more herps then recreational folks. In some cases this is probably true but in others probably not. Let’s look at an example.

Let’s say we are talking about species X. Species X is a nocturnal colubrid snake that inhabits the desert southwest. It is not uncommon but because of its secretive nature it is not easy to find.

Let’s say there are 10 commercial folks who collect 10 individuals of species X per year. This would be a total of 100 individuals of species X harvested by commercial folks.

Let’s also say that there are 100 recreational collectors who only harvest 2 individuals of species X per year. This would be a total of 200 individuals of species X harvested by recreational folks.

This example shows that recreational collectors harvest twice as many of species X then do the commercial collectors.

The recreational folks also believe that they spend more money in local economies then do commercial folks. Let’s examine an example using our desert southwest model.

Let’s assume that both commercial and recreational collectors spend $100 a day on collecting trips. Let’s also assume that recreational collectors make one trip per year for about 10 days. This means that a recreational collector will spend about $1000 dollars on a 10 day trip. With 100 recreational collectors spending $1000 on each trip, the total comes to $100,000 spent in local economies for the year by recreational collectors.

Now, the commercial collector spends probably about 20 days a month in the field. Collectors hunt from March until October, which is 8 months out of the year. So 8 months times 20 days equal a total of 160 days. At $100 a day this would be $16,000 dollars a year spent by each commercial collector. Our 10 commercial collectors would spend $160,000 dollars in local economies each year. This is $60,000 more than the recreational collectors.

Since commercial collectors use their earnings to pay their living expenses this means that 10 families will have food and a place to live. This stimulates and contributes to the economy where they live.

Let’s review. In this scenario, recreational herpers collect twice as many animals as do the commercial folks. The commercial folks contribute $60,000 more then do the recreational folks into local economies each year.

I realize that this is a hypothetical scenario with many possibilities. However, much of the data used is gleaned from 20 years of being a professional, recreational and commercial herper.

The point being is that recreational folks try to justify and minimize their role in the harvest of herps. While at the same time they try to discredit or provide mis-information concerning commercial folks. Why do they do this? One reason could be that they want more snakes for themselves and/or they want to protect their interests, ONLY. The herp industry is under attack from AR groups, academics and other folks who want to end collecting, possession and sales. It is a slippery slope for all of us. Since recreational folks do not participate in some of the activities that the commercial folks do they could careless whether these activities continue. And to appease the AR groups, academics and others they support this current agenda in hopes of not losing the activities they enjoy.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

You forgot to mention that while the hobbyist may collect more of one particular species(I assume you mean graybands), the numbers you gave fall apart when you look at total numbers of all species. Commercial collecters are not just taking 2 or 3 or 4 individual herps for 10 nights of collecting. They are likely taking 5 to 10 various "desirable" individual animals per night, not to mention less desirable herps like garters, watersnakes, atrox, lizards, frogs and toads which are often collected by the dozens per day. Using your numbers of the average commercial collecter hunting 160 nights per year that is 800 - 1,600 individual animals per year, per commercial collecter, not even including the hundreds of lesser herps. Times that by 10 commercial collecters(your own numbers again) and you have 8,000 - 16,000 individual herps per year, plus the lesser herps. By your own example hobbyists pay approxiamately $500 to local ecomomies, per individual animal they take. Contrast that with a commercial collect who probably pays at most $20 per animal, again not including the lesser catches which would bring that figure down significantly.

Also consider that game agancies need money if they are to be able to do studies and those 10 commercial collecters are only actually going to be paying about $1,000 in license fees, Whereas the 100 recreational collecters are going to be paying about $10,000 in license fees. One could look at it as dollars per animal. The animals belong to all of us. The recreational collecter is paying 10 times per animal than the commercial collecter does.

That is why commercial collecting is a hard sell to wildlife agencies. The total numbers of animals taken is frightening to them. I did not say it is bad, just that it's a hard sell. Maybe you should propose that commercial herp collerctors pay licences fees that are comparable to commercial fishing fees. Have you looked at what it costs to license a commercial fishing vessel lately?

The thing that is really baloney about this is that you have got people thinking that the recreational group wants to stop all commercial collecting. The recreational group has never said commercial collecting shouldn't be allowed. It only has said recreational collecting/breeding should be. If you think the formation of a recreational group hinders the creation of a separate commercial group you are off base. IMHO you should be more concerned about getting your group off the ground than in tearing down HCU because HCU is not stopping you from doing anything. You ought to just try selling your group on it's own merits rather than trying to make another group look bad.

Flip side of the coin.
Example. Recreational herper(me) goes after a lifelist to capture and photograph as many of species A-Z as he can. He comes across perhaps 5-6 specimens in 1 year that he wishes to raise and breed, or just raise and not breed. In the past, he could do so with a license and a permit. He spends $6000 dollars last year on his trip and brings home 3 specimens, all different, legal species, and doesn't acquire his #1 target. He enjoys himself so much, he is willing to do this time and again. He enjoys all of nature, shares his photos to the world. He hunts way more than 20 days a month, all over the state, and pumps up the economy by spending $9000 in gas, aside from his other expenses. To him, it is finding calmness in an insane world, an oasis. it's how I cope with my job!
Commercial collectors can enjoy the same, but I don't see a commercial collector share with anyone their pics of finds on these forums. commercial collectors likely will take what they can get, as much as they can, and use the daily bag limit...daily. What I don't understand is why don't commercial collectors take a certain number from the wild and become breeders. One would only have to take every 10 years or so once the colony is established, no? If herping is your job, what do you do to cope with your job, lol!
Thing is, we are both hunters. I say bag limit and stamps, that should do it for both parties.
I can come up with other examples that are...different, skewed, as well. There seems to be no science in your math here. I hope my vote canceled yours.

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Todd Hughes

Mike you did it again! You wasted my time and gave me a headache. When will I ever learn!

There is one positive aspect to all his rambling posts....the more time he spends on these forums spouting his stuff means that it is less time he has to be out in the field gathering up animals.

>>The recreational crowd has argued that there are so few >>commercial folks that they are not worth supporting because of >>their perceived negative actions.

That has nothing to do with it, rather "We have a different philosophy".

We believe that you NEED to form your group. We believe that your group will focus on what is important to you, while we keep doing what we are doing - ideally neither group will interfere the other.

I'm telling you that when you drop the anti HCU rhetoric you will notice an abrupt change in our tone towards you.

I'm NOT telling you that you have to agree with us, indeed we will probably never agree, I'm saying we have to do a better job of getting along despite our differences.

You keep making the choice to fight us.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

he see's recreational/conservation groups like HCU with perhaps hundreds of members, and is rightly concerned that his commercial group could probably attract only a handful.

No wonder he feels that it is VITAL to his strategy to discredit HCU, and that he is obviously desperate to do so.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

What if we did not have commercial collectors mixed into the overall image of recreational herpers? Where would we be now if policy makers could easily tell the difference?
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

Guys,
Please tone it down. You're not doing your cause or yourselves any good.
Swapping personal insults does our cause NO good. Makes us look like a bunch of unreasonable fanatics. Besides, the name calling is off topic. Leave that talk on some other forum.
Try to find some common ground. I'm sure both sides have merit. Actually, I know they do.
All this fighting and fragmentation plays right into the opposition's hands. There are obviously many factions with a stake here. If we don't find some measure of compromise and common ground among ourselves, and speak with a united voice, we are sunk.
Lets clean it up and keep our focus on solutions, please.
I've been gone a while. Will have to read back to catch up.
Thanks for your time.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

John,

Good post. I agree the personal insults are pointless, and
they will be even more pointless if none of us are allowed to
own herps anyway.

Regarding a united voice, I agree with that also, but I think progress will only be made if every individual does what you are doing, and that is everything they can. Seems like too many people think sending a check to a trade/local organization is all they need to do. I hope that's the case, but I doubt it. EVERYONE needs to write their Congressmen, aggressively help educate the public, write a Newspaper editorial, etc. This is
a David vs. Goliath battle, we at least need to give ourselves a slingshot!

Thanks,
Ed

>>Guys,
>>Please tone it down. You're not doing your cause or yourselves any good.
>>Swapping personal insults does our cause NO good. Makes us look like a bunch of unreasonable fanatics. Besides, the name calling is off topic. Leave that talk on some other forum.
>>Try to find some common ground. I'm sure both sides have merit. Actually, I know they do.
>>All this fighting and fragmentation plays right into the opposition's hands. There are obviously many factions with a stake here. If we don't find some measure of compromise and common ground among ourselves, and speak with a united voice, we are sunk.
>>Lets clean it up and keep our focus on solutions, please.
>>I've been gone a while. Will have to read back to catch up.
>>Thanks for your time.
>>jsc
>>-----
>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer

>>Guys,
>>Please tone it down. You're not doing your cause or yourselves any good.
>>Swapping personal insults does our cause NO good. Makes us look like a bunch of unreasonable fanatics. Besides, the name calling is off topic. Leave that talk on some other forum.
>>Try to find some common ground. I'm sure both sides have merit. Actually, I know they do.
>>All this fighting and fragmentation plays right into the opposition's hands. There are obviously many factions with a stake here. If we don't find some measure of compromise and common ground among ourselves, and speak with a united voice, we are sunk.
>>Lets clean it up and keep our focus on solutions, please.
>>I've been gone a while. Will have to read back to catch up.
>>Thanks for your time.
>>jsc
>>-----
>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer

The problem is that Mike wanted to impose his will and views on us. From the start it was said that we don't "support" commercial collecting but never said we were against it. Personally I feel that in this day in age commercial collecting does more harm than good. Both from a conservational and a legistlative standpoint. If Mike wants to make money catching animals for profit he should try getting work as a greenhorn on a crabbing boat in the Bering Sea. Thats profitable work.
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Steve W.

>>
>>Let’s assume that both commercial and recreational collectors spend $100 a day on collecting trips. Let’s also assume that recreational collectors make one trip per year for about 10 days. This means that a recreational collector will spend about $1000 dollars on a 10 day trip. With 100 recreational collectors spending $1000 on each trip, the total comes to $100,000 spent in local economies for the year by recreational collectors.
>>
>>Now, the commercial collector spends probably about 20 days a month in the field. Collectors hunt from March until October, which is 8 months out of the year. So 8 months times 20 days equal a total of 160 days. At $100 a day this would be $16,000 dollars a year spent by each commercial collector. Our 10 commercial collectors would spend $160,000 dollars in local economies each year. This is $60,000 more than the recreational collectors.
>>
>>Since commercial collectors use their earnings to pay their living expenses this means that 10 families will have food and a place to live. This stimulates and contributes to the economy where they live.
>>
>>Let’s review. In this scenario, recreational herpers collect twice as many animals as do the commercial folks. The commercial folks contribute $60,000 more then do the recreational folks into local economies each year.
>>
>>>>Mike Welker
>>El Paso, TX

The problem with your financial numbers is that most "recreational" collectors spend more than that if they're out of staters. If they are, try closer to $150-$200 a day when you factor in all the costs over 10 days. That's a lot of money to spend with no guarantee of finding your target species.
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Steve W.