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Is there a consensus on which ratsnake species have their own (non hybrid) whitesided variations? I am asking this as a legitimate question, not with the intent of saying some are from crosses. I see white sided black rats, yellow rats, everglades, and don't know if they came from crosses or not. I have some nice albino yellow rats I got from Craig Hummel, would like to see what a white sided variation would be like, but am not interested if it's a cross. Is there a general concensus on these?
Appreciate your replies,
Andy

As far as I know, the only whitesided rats that are pure are blacks and Everglades. When I got my whiteside Glades, I was told that they are most definitely Glades (and had been bred into both Glades & yellows to find out), however, for some reason when they're whitesided, they lose the orange. Because of this, a lot of people think they're yellows, and have bred them into lines of yellow rats. Whether it's true or not, I find it somewhat believable.
Also, remember that there's a belief out there that says Everglades rats aren't a viable subspecies, but are a locality of yellows. And any way you look at it, MANY of the Everglades on the market today aren't pure glades rats, but have a ton of yellow in them. It's difficult to tell when you can find yellow rats a mile away from where you're finding Everglades rats, and they look almost exactly the same. I know I see glades on the market today that I look at and see that there HAS to be some yellow rat influence in them.

hope that helped!
Ronnie Nocera

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The most common WS seen in the UK are Blacks and Texas. Are you saying that the WS gene in the Texas was introduced as a hybrid breeding?
Graham.
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30 Snakes :
Corns, Milks, Kings, American Rats, Asian Rats, Leopard Rat, Texas Long Nosed, Royal, Boa
www.ratsnakefoundation.org

Well, I can't say that I know for sure. I've never heard of anyone who actually knows the origins of whitesided Texas rats, and I never saw whitesided Texas rats until a few years ago, while blacks have been around for quite a while. My personal thought's on it, based on observations I've made . . .

I see snakes that are simply sold as "rat snakes" constantly. Whitesided, several types of albinos and leucistics. A LOT. This is partially because in Pennsylvania(where I'm located), it's illegal to sell normal black rat snakes(although morphs ARE considered legal by the fish commission, since none of the morphs originated with wild PA stock). By leaving the "black" out, a lot of people assume they're integrades, or that they're Texas rats. I can tell you I've actually seen people set up at reptile shows who have told me that they don't know whether or not it's legal to sell morphs of black rats, but if they just put "rat snake", they can always say it's a Texas, and no one will know the difference. Thus, I am inclined to say that the whitesided Texas rats probably sprouted up out of this type of marketing.

On top of this, a ton of people subscribe to the new theory that they're all obsoleta, and it doesn't matter. How many of the animals merely labeled "rat snakes" are from these people?

Add on to that how many people simply accept whatever they're told about an animal, and don't have any clue about classification or taxonomy, and then think- Well, I see albino Texas rats, and leucistic Texas rats. Now here's a "whitesided rat snake" that is built just like my Texas rats . . . I guess someone forgot to write "Texas" on the label!

I'm not trying to knock anyone here, but a lot of people in the herp trade aren't exactly the most intelligent, or educated people. There are a LOT of people out there who breed all kinds of morphs of different species of snakes, and don't have a CLUE what the latin names of these snakes are. To these people, how much of a difference is there between Elaphe obsoleta lindheimeri and Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta?.

There is also a ton of debate about whether or not these are localities of the same animals, or subspecies of the same animals, and whether or not there should be any differentiation at all between them.

And one final thought-
The whitesided gene is allelic between black rats, Everglades rats, yellow rats, and Texas rats. This tells me that somewhere along the line, one animal passed on the gene to all of these. Somewhere in the history of evolution of these snakes, they're all related anyway. In a couple instances, the gene popped up in "unrelated" animals of WC descent, and in a couple, it was bred into them. A ton of these animals have overlapping ranges in the wild, anyway, with black & Texas integrades being extremely common.

Does anyone else know anything about them? Anyone have any history on any pure whitesided Texas rats?

Hope this helped, even though it was confusing!
Ronnie Nocera

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Ronnie, very interesting.
Graham.
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30 Snakes :
Corns, Milks, Kings, American Rats, Asian Rats, Leopard Rat, Texas Long Nosed, Royal, Boa
www.ratsnakefoundation.org