Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just got two new BRB's today. They are from Jasmine Durgin (atherisquamigera). Unfortunately for her she had to give up her collection, so I got these two gems. They are yearlings and were produced by Bryan Hummel.

This will be an interesting project. The male, Gozer, looks like he might be Hypermelanistic. He has black in almost every one of his scales. His sister, Zool, is dark but not quite as dark as Gozer. She also has some neat aberrancies on her.

Here are pictures of the female, Zool:

And here is the male, Gozer:

Even if they don't prove out to be hypermelanistic through breeding trials, I'll still have awesome blood to mix with the Albinos when they become available. Ooohh.... think of it.... super white Albinos!!!
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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Cool, I knew Jasmine had those and that she's moving to Hawaii, no snakes allowed!!

Congrats and keep us posted on how the project goes.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Thanks, Dave... I feel bad for Jasmine, having to give up her snakes must have been very hard for her. But what can I say, I'm happy to have them.

I sure hope they continue to darken up as they grow, especially Gozer. I usually ohh and ahh over the lighter ones, but these two are way cool! Their iridescence is really pronounced.
-----
Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Dang, isn't Jasmine the one who wanted to be a big time breeder in 10 years? Must be devastating.

On a selfish note, she was going to send a few of us babies
when she hit it big (in exchange for helping her out.) Double
dang!

At least these BRB's are in good hands, though. Good luck
with them.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Thanks, Dave... I feel bad for Jasmine, having to give up her snakes must have been very hard for her. But what can I say, I'm happy to have them.
>>
>>I sure hope they continue to darken up as they grow, especially Gozer. I usually ohh and ahh over the lighter ones, but these two are way cool! Their iridescence is really pronounced.
>>-----
>>Aubrey Ross
>>
>>©
>>www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

>>Dang, isn't Jasmine the one who wanted to be a big time breeder in 10 years? Must be devastating.
>>
>>On a selfish note, she was going to send a few of us babies
>>when she hit it big (in exchange for helping her out.) Double
>>dang!
>>
>>At least these BRB's are in good hands, though. Good luck
>>with them.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ed
>>
>>
>>>>Thanks, Dave... I feel bad for Jasmine, having to give up her snakes must have been very hard for her. But what can I say, I'm happy to have them.
>>>>
>>>>I sure hope they continue to darken up as they grow, especially Gozer. I usually ohh and ahh over the lighter ones, but these two are way cool! Their iridescence is really pronounced.
>>>>-----
>>>>Aubrey Ross
>>>>
>>>>©
>>>>www.SlipstreamSerpents.com
>>
>>
-----
--------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks,

Frank Roberts

Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

>>>>Dang, isn't Jasmine the one who wanted to be a big time breeder in 10 years? Must be devastating.
>>>>
>>>>On a selfish note, she was going to send a few of us babies
>>>>when she hit it big (in exchange for helping her out.) Double
>>>>dang!
>>>>
>>>>At least these BRB's are in good hands, though. Good luck
>>>>with them.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Ed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks, Dave... I feel bad for Jasmine, having to give up her snakes must have been very hard for her. But what can I say, I'm happy to have them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I sure hope they continue to darken up as they grow, especially Gozer. I usually ohh and ahh over the lighter ones, but these two are way cool! Their iridescence is really pronounced.
>>>>>>-----
>>>>>>Aubrey Ross
>>>>>>
>>>>>>©
>>>>>>www.SlipstreamSerpents.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>-----
>>--------------------------------------------------------------
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Frank Roberts
>>
>>Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research
>>
>>I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

The darker ones always have more irridescence!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

When you breed those together even if it's not Hypermelanism the babies will be even more black regardless in my opinion. If you selectively bred that line you will be surprised in my opinion and get some very very black snakes. I also would not be surprised if they where het for something with all the Brazilian projects that guy has going on. Ugly Ducklings to many. They are unusual and quite iridescent and I want a pair from that first breeding you do. If you don't have a list. I want to be on it NOW.

As a side note. I am sure Hawaii will help her recover from her loss and temporary devastation.

I would be glad to hehe...

>>I just got two new BRB's today. They are from Jasmine Durgin (atherisquamigera). Unfortunately for her she had to give up her collection, so I got these two gems. They are yearlings and were produced by Bryan Hummel.
>>
>>This will be an interesting project. The male, Gozer, looks like he might be Hypermelanistic. He has black in almost every one of his scales. His sister, Zool, is dark but not quite as dark as Gozer. She also has some neat aberrancies on her.
>>
>>Here are pictures of the female, Zool:
>>
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>>And here is the male, Gozer:
>>
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>>Even if they don't prove out to be hypermelanistic through breeding trials, I'll still have awesome blood to mix with the Albinos when they become available. Ooohh.... think of it.... super white Albinos!!!
>>-----
>>Aubrey Ross
>>
>>©
>>www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

-----
--------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks,

Frank Roberts

Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

To keep this short as possible. I was trying to get a pattern-less high orange rat snake with no albino/hypo etc...involved.

Here is the breakdown of the product:

Bubblegum Rat snake (Albino Black/Yellow/Everglades intergrade) bred to a Everglades rat snake=

Higher then normal orange het bubblegum rat snake (they are usual ugly dark snakes but since out bred to an everglades you get more orange).

Highest orange individual bred to a Blotchless Everglades female Rat snake from dwight good.

Final result that I will be breeding into my other rat snake projects and also I am in search of a non-hypo/albino HIGH orange everglades to further accentuate the orange.

No anomalies where used except the "Blotchless" gene. I used this to get rid of the chestnut brown blotches that where taking away from my goal of a high orange snake.

This snake is mostly everglades rat snake but has Black and Yellow Rat snake genes as well.

So I am quite confident you can get those Brazilians to throw very black babies. It will just take lots of time and persistence on your part. All of my rat snakes are about 3 years old before they breed for the first time so timeline could be similar. 5 year project that is not over yet. I was lucky enough to reacquire this orange rat snake this year.

To entertain Dave. I bet you five dollars this snake is brighter orange then that picture. So if you wanna tweak something. The orange is brigher but yet lighter then that picture. Like bright pumpkin Orange.

I have been told I am very talented.

I have been admittedly wasting my life away for years to be honest.

Hence, I see great black snakes from those puppies, if you don't believe me ship em here and I will prove it to you.

No Hypermelanism needed to improve the albino gene. Yeah it would help but it is not necessary. You just have to be VERY selective what you breed it to and stay away from The "Jag Carpet Python" approach to breeding your snakes to any old snake you can find.

You have to WORK to get great results. No magic wands, they are not reality.

Aubrey, I am not saying anything derogatory about you and your goals or approaches to them in any way. Was referring to the "Jag" department lol.

So, I believe you and those snakes got the potential in the "genotype" anyway!!!
-----
--------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks,

Frank Roberts

Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

Thanks Frank, and no worries... I won't be breeding these to any other species or subspecies to try and enchance the color.

Nice ratsnakes by the way!

You've got mail!
-----
Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

I didn't mean you where going to bred them to other subspecies I meant you should line bred them to each other to accentuate the black even if it is not Hypermelanism. You can still make a black looking snake like I made the orange one.

In the case of the rat snake, they are kind of generic in my opinion and those three subspecies are the same snake from different areas of the US.

The Texas, Grey, Black, Yellow, and Everglades are the same animal as far as I am concerned. Elaphe obsoleta complex AKA American Rat Snake.

The Arizona Green Rat snake (not the "greenish" yellow and black intergrade)and Trans-pecos obviously different all together.
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=========================================================
PS I often use bold letters for my entire post because I can read it easier !
=========================================================
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

Yeah, I misunderstood the Carpet Python remark. They will definetely be line bred for the black. Obviously at a certain point, though, I will need to outcross them to bring in fresh blood.
-----
Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

The carpet remark would correspond to when you outbreed. Find a dark ass animal for that not any ole thing. (I am sure you would)

A lot of people breeding "Jags" will breed them to a noodle and muddy the line. I also go off in tangents a lot but at least this time I meant my meanderings to be directly related to our conversation LOL!!!

>>Yeah, I misunderstood the Carpet Python remark. They will definetely be line bred for the black. Obviously at a certain point, though, I will need to outcross them to bring in fresh blood.
>>-----
>>Aubrey Ross
>>
>>©
>>www.SlipstreamSerpents.com
-----
=========================================================
PS I often use bold letters for my entire post because I can read it easier !
=========================================================
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

I bred Burmese Pythons to the 4th generation once as an experiment. ummm Don't go past 2 if you ask me.

>>The carpet remark would correspond to when you outbreed. Find a dark ass animal for that not any ole thing. (I am sure you would)
>>
>>A lot of people breeding "Jags" will breed them to a noodle and muddy the line. I also go off in tangents a lot but at least this time I meant my meanderings to be directly related to our conversation LOL!!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Yeah, I misunderstood the Carpet Python remark. They will definetely be line bred for the black. Obviously at a certain point, though, I will need to outcross them to bring in fresh blood.
>>>>-----
>>>>Aubrey Ross
>>>>
>>>>©
>>>>www.SlipstreamSerpents.com
>>-----
>>=========================================================
>>PS I often use bold letters for my entire post because I can read it easier !
>>=========================================================
>>Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research
>>=========================================================
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Frank Roberts
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.
-----
=========================================================
PS I often use bold letters for my entire post because I can read it easier !
=========================================================
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

Ha 4th generation huh? What were the results of that?

Ike Lightner

1.2 BRB (Dugo, Roxy, Brazita)

Well I mean inbreeding events so the 3rd gen father was full grown at 5 feet and behaved like a Black Racer less the aggression.

The next generation where the flightiest and I mean meanest snakes I ever seen. They sat around biting themselves and such and where messed up. Looked normal though. I do not even remember what I did with them. Most where eternized but at least one went to someone.

>>Ha 4th generation huh? What were the results of that?
>>
>>Ike Lightner
>>
>>1.2 BRB (Dugo, Roxy, Brazita)
-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

Haha I see, I was hoping you'd say you ended up with some two headed mutant snakes or something. Still though, pretty funny sounding although I don't think I'll try that experiment myself.

>>Haha I see, I was hoping you'd say you ended up with some two headed mutant snakes or something. Still though, pretty funny sounding although I don't think I'll try that experiment myself.
-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

But I believe Jeff Gee (captive bred wildlife foundation) is up to F5 hypos with no adverse affects to date.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

F5 does not necessarily mean inbreeding.

He is a VERY smart man and knows better then that I am sure of this by perusing his site.

>>But I believe Jeff Gee (captive bred wildlife foundation) is up to F5 hypos with no adverse affects to date.
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>26.49 BRB
>>20.21 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

A discussion I had with him in Anaheim leads me to believe that is exactly what he is doing and that F5 truly means four successive generations of sibling breedings.

>>F5 does not necessarily mean inbreeding.
>>
>>I am talking severe purposely line bred sibling to parent and back to parent every generation. No out crossing of any kind.
>>
>>Here...
>>
>>Bred unrelated Burmese.
>>
>>a male neonate is grown, then bred back to mother.
>>
>>Immediate pattern mutation takes place in first generation of inbreeding.
>>
>>Repeat same...over and over and over...
>>
>>Problems, VERY NOTICEABLE problems start by the third inbreeding event.
>>
>>This can not be what he is doing. He is talking generations away from being wild snakes for sure.
>>
>>Selectively bred in a way that does not allow the inbreeding coefficient to cause deleterious lethal congenital defects to become fixed within the population of animals he is working with.
>>
>>He is a VERY smart man and knows better then that I am sure of this by perusing his site.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>But I believe Jeff Gee (captive bred wildlife foundation) is up to F5 hypos with no adverse affects to date.
>>>>-----
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dave Colling
>>>>
>>>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>>>
>>>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>>>26.49 BRB
>>>>20.21 BCI
>>>>And those are only the breeders
>>>>
>>>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
>>-----
>>=========================================================
>> Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
>>=========================================================
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Frank Roberts
>>
>>
>>
>>I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

While they may seem Phenotypic ally desirable.

If he is doing exactly what I said the animals are a genotypic nightmare, he ain't proof of SQUAT.

It would be mere luck that they are even able to reproduce their own offspring and I bet they are very different looking hypos from other better bred lines.

It may make a difference in my example all are bred back to the mother ALWAYS, but you stated that is what he is doing.

Successful doesn't not mean genetically diverse for certain.

If one looks close at even a first generation inbreeding event you can see a slight noticeable variations away from the wild type pattern immediately. By third the adult size can change dramatically and the male in my example never exceeded 5 feet in length and could reproduce at that size and was not a new dwarf example from an island.

Some breeders of retics noticed hi-speckling in their offspring and thought it a marker for het albinism. I have seen this in non albino lines with the first breeding of a son back to the mother.

So like I said, a successful breeding doesn't not mean a genetically diverse snake with genetic integrity I would want to breed into a line and hope no genotypic lethal combinations exist from all the "normal" genes threw out the "window" in the process of fixing a certain look into the bloodline.

With all the things floating around in all these line bred snakes it doesn't surprise me that there are so many pattern anomalies in ball pythons that are not truly simple recessive traits. The spider anomaly has occult like tag along's and so there are many other problems in ALL OF THESE line bred snakes.

BUT THEY ARE PRETTY TO LOOK AT FOR SURE !!!

>>A discussion I had with him in Anaheim leads me to believe that is exactly what he is doing and that F5 truly means four successive generations of sibling breedings.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>F5 does not necessarily mean inbreeding.
>>>>
>>>>I am talking severe purposely line bred sibling to parent and back to parent every generation. No out crossing of any kind.
>>>>
>>>>Here...
>>>>
>>>>Bred unrelated Burmese.
>>>>
>>>>a male neonate is grown, then bred back to mother.
>>>>
>>>>Immediate pattern mutation takes place in first generation of inbreeding.
>>>>
>>>>Repeat same...over and over and over...
>>>>
>>>>Problems, VERY NOTICEABLE problems start by the third inbreeding event.
>>>>
>>>>This can not be what he is doing. He is talking generations away from being wild snakes for sure.
>>>>
>>>>Selectively bred in a way that does not allow the inbreeding coefficient to cause deleterious lethal congenital defects to become fixed within the population of animals he is working with.
>>>>
>>>>He is a VERY smart man and knows better then that I am sure of this by perusing his site.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>But I believe Jeff Gee (captive bred wildlife foundation) is up to F5 hypos with no adverse affects to date.
>>>>>>-----
>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dave Colling
>>>>>>
>>>>>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>>>>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>>>>>26.49 BRB
>>>>>>20.21 BCI
>>>>>>And those are only the breeders
>>>>>>
>>>>>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
>>>>-----
>>>>=========================================================
>>>> Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
>>>>=========================================================
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>Frank Roberts
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>26.49 BRB
>>20.21 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

Like I started out, I do not condone nor do I agree with. Just listing an example of what I understand to be one breeders "line bred" to extreme w/out known problems at this time.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

>>Like I started out, I do not condone nor do I agree with. Just listing an example of what I understand to be one breeders "line bred" to extreme w/out known problems at this time.
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>26.49 BRB
>>20.21 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

No, I don't have any of those.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

>>No, I don't have any of those.
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>26.49 BRB
>>20.21 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats
-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

If he's doing sibling x sibling from each clutch to create the next F-clutch down the line, its not the same as taking 1 animal from each successive generation and breeding it back to the original parent.

If you're doing parent x f1 holdback = f2, then parent x f2 holdback = f3 and so on down the line, you're concentrating the genetics of the single parent animal.

If you're doing parent x parent = f1, f1 x f1 = f2, f2 x f2 = f3, you've got a far different picture and IMO would have to be combining several pairs from each successive generation to be able to come up with any kind of useful data re: the entire gene pool you're working with. If you're just looking for anomalies related to a particular phenotype, I'd be more likely to go this route than the single parent concentration route.

Either way, this kind of inbreeding isnt for the faint of heart.

>>If you're doing parent x f1 holdback = f2, then parent x f2 holdback = f3 and so on down the line, you're concentrating the genetics of the single parent animal.

>>Either way, this kind of inbreeding isnt for the faint of heart.

I will have to agree...the results get disturbing into the third event is where it gets NOTICABLE. Although the pattern mutation even in the first inbreeding event is noticable in most snakes that are line bred. I could just read that...not me....lol
-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

I was just wondering, they where normal Burmese. Done in 80's into 90's. I didn't have any albino then and was just experimenting with what I had.

If you can not euthanize a snake do not do this.

I never seen anything like it. Makes me wonder about the insular reticulatus and bivittatus for sure. Low genetic diversity may have taken it's toll on the population. I have considered the smaller size related to their prey types on these islands as well. Lots of other stuff to consider but I hear the little burms are meaner then a dog passing tacks and well I have had a 5 foot Burmese that acted like a Black Racer less the aggression. His progeny where the meanest snakes I have ever encountered ever. I have been studying aggression in snakes my entire life. (was a great way to get free snakes too I must add)

In my experience snakes loose their aggression once they become accustomed to you being around and therefore they do not perceive you as a predator and no longer need to defensively defend themselves, no handling necessary, just repeated presence.

Well except my Amazon Tree Boas, they are just little meanies LOL.

I do think they can calm down. I am not nocturnal and they sleep and do not notice me enough to loose that fear is what it is IMO.

Even my yellow anacondas mellowed out a lot over the past few years and they are in opaque enclosures and therefore still harbor some aggression.( they are 7 years old now) I will be moving them to enclosures that will make me a lot more visible to see If my hypothesis is correct. (more accurately, correct s far as my snake data's concerned, not valid, not enough source data, but hey it keeps me busy and makes me happy )

>>>>If you're doing parent x f1 holdback = f2, then parent x f2 holdback = f3 and so on down the line, you're concentrating the genetics of the single parent animal.
>>
>>>>Either way, this kind of inbreeding isnt for the faint of heart.
>>
>>I will have to agree...the results get disturbing into the third event is where it gets NOTICABLE. Although the pattern mutation even in the first inbreeding event is noticable in most snakes that are line bred. I could just read that...not me....lol
>>-----
>>=========================================================
>> Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
>>=========================================================
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Frank Roberts
>>
>>
>>
>>I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

-----
=========================================================
Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

because of this I no longer breed past one generation...if you seen my orange rat snake there was only one line breeding and that was siblings. It still took me 3 breeding's and 5-6 years to accomplish but I did it and kept the line breeding to only one event and all other snakes where completely unrelated.

I don't think that comes even close to the same thing. Still that many sibling breeding's still messes with the genetics as you said.

Looks are deceiving and when you breed like that there is more then the phenotype to take into consideration.

>>I was just wondering, they where normal Burmese. Done in 80's into 90's. I didn't have any albino then and was just experimenting with what I had.
>>
>>If you can not euthanize a snake do not do this.
>>
>>I never seen anything like it. Makes me wonder about the insular reticulatus and bivittatus for sure. Low genetic diversity may have taken it's toll on the population. I have considered the smaller size related to their prey types on these islands as well. Lots of other stuff to consider but I hear the little burms are meaner then a dog passing tacks and well I have had a 5 foot Burmese that acted like a Black Racer less the aggression. His progeny where the meanest snakes I have ever encountered ever. I have been studying aggression in snakes my entire life. (was a great way to get free snakes too I must add)
>>
>>In my experience snakes loose their aggression once they become accustomed to you being around and therefore they do not perceive you as a predator and no longer need to defensively defend themselves, no handling necessary, just repeated presence.
>>
>>Well except my Amazon Tree Boas, they are just little meanies LOL.
>>
>>I do think they can calm down. I am not nocturnal and they sleep and do not notice me enough to loose that fear is what it is IMO.
>>
>>Even my yellow anacondas mellowed out a lot over the past few years and they are in opaque enclosures and therefore still harbor some aggression.( they are 7 years old now) I will be moving them to enclosures that will make me a lot more visible to see If my hypothesis is correct. (more accurately, correct s far as my snake data's concerned, not valid, not enough source data, but hey it keeps me busy and makes me happy )
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>>>>>>If you're doing parent x f1 holdback = f2, then parent x f2 holdback = f3 and so on down the line, you're concentrating the genetics of the single parent animal.
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>>>>>>Either way, this kind of inbreeding isnt for the faint of heart.
>>>>
>>>>I will have to agree...the results get disturbing into the third event is where it gets NOTICABLE. Although the pattern mutation even in the first inbreeding event is noticable in most snakes that are line bred. I could just read that...not me....lol
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>>>>=========================================================
>>>> Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
>>>>=========================================================
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>Frank Roberts
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.
>>
>>
>>-----
>>=========================================================
>> Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
>>=========================================================
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Frank Roberts
>>
>>
>>
>>I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.
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Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
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Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

I saw some pretty disturbing things in F2 off of linebred mammals, the neural crest issues were by far the most disturbing. I've been known to chant "please have heads, please have heads" when awaiting birth of babies from animals of similar lineage.

Anyone who's not willing to put an animal down shouldnt have anything to do with inbreeding or tight linebreeding.

because of this I no longer breed past one generation...if you seen my orange rat snake there was only one line breeding and that was siblings. It still took me 3 breeding's and 5-6 years to accomplish but I did it and kept the line breeding to only one event and all other snakes where completely unrelated.

I don't think siblings comes even close to the same thing as you stated. Still more then one inbreeding event of even sibling breeding's still messes with the genetics as you already stated.

Looks are deceiving and when you breed like that there is more then the phenotype to take into consideration.

>>I saw some pretty disturbing things in F2 off of linebred mammals, the neural crest issues were by far the most disturbing. I've been known to chant "please have heads, please have heads" when awaiting birth of babies from animals of similar lineage.
>>
>>Anyone who's not willing to put an animal down shouldnt have anything to do with inbreeding or tight linebreeding.
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Roberts Realm Of Reptile Research
=========================================================
Thanks,

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

the albinos may not be super white, they may be what ever other color the albino has. Like super dripping Orange/Yellow or whatever the albino exhibits besides the white. Could be either way. Only one way to find out LOL. Depend on the genes, Hypermelanism would make it white I think, the other would be a dripping with the other colors over the entire snake, very different from any other albinos though but still inheritable through selective breeding trails.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

BCI's. The albinos "dripping" in color in fact as hets have black spots on every scale just like that brazilian does.

I have a Lucy Texas Rat snake that has orange spots like that lol.
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts

Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

I opened my mouth and out flowed a melody black.

Lucky break!

If you get black animals from this pairing down the road I'll be happy to take a couple off of your hands.
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Danielle

Herps:
2.1 BRBs
1.1 Black Milksnakes
1.0 Amel Motley Corn
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Other critters:
1.0 Great Dane
1.0 Siamese
1 Senegal Parrot
1 Blue Fronted Amazon

Thanks Danielle!
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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Yes these animals did come from me. They were NOT however produced by me. My good long term friend (and the guy who sold me MY FIRST rainbowboas) produces a few litters each year. His stock is both national zoo and early LAMAR stock.

He has mostly earthy orange snakes, with a few oddball patterns and some nice orange male breeders. He has had the same bloodline since 1994, and holds back a few babies each year. I have bought the remaining babies for the past three or four years, selling to top animals and had been holding back the “nicest” ones for diversity.

These oddball animals were dark babies and I did not expect them to be very pretty, BUT the pattern abnormality made them worth keeping, Until I had more than 200 snakes to take care of……that is when you have to let things go….And Jasmine was the first to jump. I have cut back but still have too many animals.

I have photos of the Lamar parents on my website (which admittedly is outdated and in bad need of some TLC and upgrades).

Here is the link. http://rainbowboas.com/images/wi2004LamarPhaseParents/

As you can see he doesn’t have any melanistic adults, and I have not heard if any of the other ones turned that dark…. And I have not kept any for more than a year, So I don’t know.

Hope that “cleared things up”...
lamar parents

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Bryan Hummel
www.rainbowboas.com