Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We need to take a lesson from history in looking at the situation the herp industry is in. The Roman’s devised a successful strategy to defeat powerful forces. The strategy, “divide et impera” or divide and conquer, is a combination of political, military and economic strategy of gaining and maintaining power by breaking up larger concentrations of power into chunks that individually have less power.

The herp industry is currently succumbing to this strategy. Academia, agency biologists and animal rights groups have unknowingly joined forces to push their mutually agreeable agenda. I do not believe it is a conscious or organized effort but none-the-less it is happening.

Here is a list of some of the battle fronts we face:

1. Commerce in boas and pythons
2. The keeping of venomous animals
3. The commercial sale of wild caught animals
4. The keeping of the “giant” snake species
5. The collection, keeping, breeding and selling of turtles
6. The keeping of large lizards
7. The collection of herps from the wild
8. The possession of herps
9. The shipping of herps
10. Herps and salmonella

These battle fronts are being waged at the federal, state and local levels which further divide us. It appears as if many recreational folks are being “fished into” this strategy if you will. They are allowing the divide and conquer strategy to work. They appear to believe the propaganda and agenda pushing from academia, agency biologist and AR groups in many cases. Take the box turtle situation Joe Forks is so fond of. In a post below this one, Joe explains how box turtles are in deep trouble and that his recreational group supports the TPWD actions of the past year. What is this based on Joe? Did you read through the box turtle papers yourself? Or did you just get someone’s opinion on the situation? I have a good friend, who has been keeping and breeding box turtles for over 25 years, who has reviwed all of the popular box turtle papers used to push the box turtle agenda. There are all kinds of opinion, data skewing and other false assumptions in these papers. Now, I am not saying that box turtles are not being affected by anything but that the agenda pushers are exaggerating and inflating the situation. They are using scare tactics and over-use of the precautionary principal to push their agenda. Box turtles maybe declining but the main cause is habitat destruction and roads. Collecting is minimal at best.

This is just one example of how we are being divided and conquered. The sale of wild caught herps is another. The recreational groups are with academia on turtles and the collection of wild caught for the purpose of sale. We are being divided. This post is NOT an attack on recreational folks. This is a history lesson. The academics, agency biologist and AR groups will continue until their agenda is complete. If the recreational folks think that they will not come after recreational collecting they are sadly mistaken. As soon as they use you guys to get rid of your fellow herpers you will see that you are next.

Remember they have agendas. They believe certain things. I believe with reasonable certainty that they want to stop all collection. I can’t be anymore plain then that. We have to all come together or we will be toast. We are being divided and conquered.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Agree....

It happened here in my state. People even tried to get together in a group to work with wildlife resources. They wouldnt hear of it. Their attitude was pretty much "We are the government, we know whats best for you, and we will do what we want". Just talked, looked down on us and treated us like we were ignorant little children. Not sure how the federal ban will go, but I hope you guys will be able to at least get some of the other minor issues at the state level taken care of and effect some positive changes. Seems right now though, everyone is scrambling around trying to survive at this point. All out war on the hobby has been declared. Keep your hopes up guys........

Mike,
Let me address your questions that were directed at me.

>>>Joe explains how box turtles are in deep trouble and that his >>>recreational group supports the TPWD actions of the past year.

I support the Black listing of Box Turtles. Under the current regs you can collect up to six individuals for personal use. We are hoping they allow sale of Captive Born Box Turtles.

>>>What is this based on Joe?

This is based on over 30 years of field experience in Texas. I am infinitely familiar with hundreds of thousands of acres of "historical box turtle habitat" in which they no longer exist, for a variety of reasons.

>>>Did you read through the box turtle papers yourself?

I have read a great deal of them, though probably not all of them.

>>>Or did you just get someone’s opinion on the situation?

No I formulated my own opinion.

>>>I have a good friend, who has been keeping and breeding box >>>turtles for over 25 years, who has reviwed all of the popular >>>box turtle papers used to push the box turtle agenda.

>>There are all kinds of opinion, data skewing and other false >>assumptions in these papers.

Can you be specific here? Give us an example. This is a very vague statement. I can't say if I agree or not without more information.

>>Now, I am not saying that box turtles are not being affected by >>anything but that the agenda pushers are exaggerating and >>inflating the situation.

Here again, this is vague. If you could provide some evidence that would be great. I can tell you that there are many areas where they are gone. Gone is gone.

>>>They are using scare tactics and over-use of the precautionary >>>principal to push their agenda. Box turtles maybe declining >>>but the main cause is habitat destruction and roads. >>>Collecting is minimal at best.

So what you're saying here is that who cares that Box Turtles are in trouble by Fire Ants, pesticides, habitat destruction, you want to be able to keep right on collecting and selling them 8 at a time from the last remaining stronghold in Texas?

That does not make sense Mike. I will never agree with you on this.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Joe,

Thanks for responding and sticking to the points. I have read many of the box turtle papers as well. I have had long conversations with my buddy, Eric, on these box turtle papers. We have gone over and identified many leaps of reality by the academics writing these papers. Eric is working on producing a document which outlines these leaps. I have some additional questions for you.

What areas are box turtles gone from? Please explain your survey methods? Were any papers produced from your studies? What were the direct causes of decline in your studies? Were only box turtles affected? Do you agree with my general theory of divide and conquer? If not, why?

As for this statement, "So what you're saying here is that who cares that Box Turtles are in trouble by Fire Ants, pesticides, habitat destruction, you want to be able to keep right on collecting and selling them 8 at a time from the last remaining stronghold in Texas?"

No, not at all. This is what we need to focus on, the big impacts. I believe that if box turtles are in that bad a shape then they should be listed as Endangered or Threatened. In order to do this evidence will have to be given that qualifies this species for that designation in Texas. It appears that there is not enough evidence to support this designation. Collection preserves gene pools in captivity. While I can agree with you that over-harvest should be avoided this can be accomplished with bag limits, not the banning of sales. Further, captive propagation should not be limited in any way and it currently is.

What does protecting box turtles mean? Protecting them from collection? Sale? The bulldozers of development? Roads? I feel that as long as development is allowed and roads do not have exclusion devices installed on them that box turtle harvest should be allowed. This position works for any of the major threats. In captivity the gene pools persist, you can't argue with that. Many box turtles that are harvested are probably displaced animals. I don't have any evidence to prove that, however. Here is another example of why "protection" can lead to extinction.

There was a population of box turtles which occurred on a peninsula in coastal Louisiana. Development had been advancing on their habitat. Several years ago the collection of box turtles was made illegal in Louisiana and these gene pools were not represented in captivity. So was the primary threat of development stopped? No. Were hobbyists allowed to collect this population and preserve these gene pools in captivity? No. When hurricane Katrina ravaged the gulf coast these turtles were wiped away forever. They are now gone because collection was not allowed. So again, I ask, box turtles need to be protected from what? Protected into extinction?

I feel that any herp that is not listed as Endangered or Threatened should have a harvest at some level if not for the hobbyists need then to preserve gene pools in captivity. I think we can all agree that over-harvest is bad but as long as we harvest in the acceptable range we are only benefiting the species.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I absolutely agree with what has been said here, on so many levels.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

When a species is on the decline, many factors usually come into play. When it is identified that they are in decline, sometimes it may already be too late. I know that there used to be box turtles in Nueces county 30 years ago, now there are none that I am aware of. I feel like I have a handle on this county more so than any other herper here as far as what was and is now. My job allows for many miles traveling across south and east Texas. I now have to travel across two counties to see a box turtle either north or south. To the west is unkown to me, I stick mainly to the coast. I saw one dor boxie in Kenedy county last year and a luteola in Brewster. That was it. In previous years I saw three or four in Aransas county per year. I am not saying I know every population but I am saying that I see no other data being presented in my area. Most in academia consider this annectdotal or dismiss the data altogether because it is not backed up by the papers you want presented. I only want to see the papers you are quoting if you are going to ask for the opposite data.
I believe that these turtles are threatened and need some type of protection. Until you and I and many others can add to a database that all will accredit, all our info is annectdotal. I really hope we all can join forces and put down our differences. We have some ground to cover yet.

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Todd Hughes

box turtles are all but gone. Old timers say they were once extremely common in our area, but started to disappear soon after fire ants moved in. One venerable OLD girl now is living out her last years in Ron Tremper's courtyard-where fire ant control is zealously practiced. She was the first one seen in his area in many years. One local tells of finding adults almost dead from massed fire ant attacks-their defensive reaction of closing up the hinge of their plastron and sitting immobile was counterproductive in this case.

So yes, I definitely believe box turtles warrant protection.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

So Brad, we need to ban fire ants? I would support that. But seriously. We do need to address these devastating impacts. Collection and captive propagation is a great way to preserve these gene pools in captivity. When we finally figure out a way to kill off the fire ants we will have localized genetic material for re-introduction. If we stop collection then all the turtles will be killed by fire ants. If we allow collection and even promote it these gene pools will be preserved in captivity.

Again, protect the box turtles from what? Don't allow divide and conquer to work, Brad. Use your head and think about the situation. Do we save Kendall County genetics or do we sit back and watch the fire ants eat it all?

You tell me.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Again, protect the box turtles from what? Don't allow divide and conquer to work, Brad. Use your head and think about the situation. Do we save Kendall County genetics or do we sit back and watch the fire ants eat it all?

Unfortunately, the box turtles may not be able to take ANY additional pressure at the moment-we just don't know for sure. Around here, you'd find it impossible to even collect your 6 turtle limit. But your point is well taken, and it is why HCU will I'm sure make it a priority to amend the current regs to allow for captive breeding and sale of captive bred offspring....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

>>why HCU will I'm sure make it a priority to amend the current regs to allow for captive breeding and sale of captive bred offspring....

I talked to Matt Wagner about this myself, and it sounded promising.

In fact we need to be watching the TP&W web site for meeting announcements. They will be taking public comment on this next commissioner's meeting.

Mike, I'm out for a week - behave. Captive Propagation is our mantra.

Forky
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

10-4, thanks for your participation in the discussion.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

I feel better already. Just a big misunderstanding.
We all want the same thing. Cliché time -- "You know, sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees".
Share the love.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

gets back from out of town we are doing lunch! We will straighten it all out.

Peace, love, dove and fly lesbian seagull fly!

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

Anyone who is aware of the Lesbian Seagull can't be all bad...

Everyone-do not diparage Lesbian Seagull-she must FLY!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

"Later, much later,"

"The Bigger Man"
"El Paso, TX"

Bummer, that did not last long! I was so hopefull!

I was ending that particular argument or debate. Are you trying to start another one? Do you have any comments on the post? Why don't you try and be productive instead of being negative?

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

"Why don't you try and be productive instead of being negative?"

If you will I will!

Okay dude. That doesn't even deserve a response.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX