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What do you think this girl will produce?

She was bred by this little fellow:

He is her brother. I'm afraid right now it's the only way to find out if first if there might be a "super" version and second to find out if it is genetic or not.

So what do you think we will get?

She is due June 6th and that's a long time from now... Here is a video of the female ovulating.

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Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

full body reverse stripe?!?!

My guess would be more Reverse Striped?
Where are they from?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Regardless of what they produce,there will have to be at least one additional breeding to get close to "Super"

Very Clean CA's :thumbup:

>>What do you think this girl will produce?
>>She was bred by this little fellow:
>>He is her brother. I'm afraid right now it's the only way to find out if first if there might be a "super" version and second to find out if it is genetic or not.
>>So what do you think we will get?

>>Boaphile Home
>>All Original/Boaphile Plastics
>>The Boa Network
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TnK

Neat looking boas. Breeding the two together won't prove that it is genetic though. Especially if there is no noticeable homozygous form. That is presuming that they are hets of a co-dom mutation.

Because they are siblings and because they look so much alike you should get babies that look similar, or even have the traits enhanced.

However the only way to prove they are genetic is to breed to completely unrelated boas with no aberrations.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Of course one breeding may prove if this is genetic or not.

Of course if we breed these two together successfully and they produce more babies like them, or maybe something even unexpected, that will prove it to be genetic. It will not, however, prove how it works genetically. To determine if what we see in these animals is simple recessive, dominant, co-dominant or polygenic will not be determined in one breeding. That will take additional breeding trials. It may not be genetic at all and if we get a decent sized litter and they all come out normal, that will be the only result that proves that these pattern aberancies are not genetic. Obviously we are hoping that it is in fact genetic and that crazy off the chart things happen. We shall see... I hope.
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"Of course if we breed these two together successfully and they produce more babies like them, or maybe something even unexpected, that will prove it to be genetic."

I respectfully disagree.

Again because there isn't outside blood introduced there is a high probability that the appearance would be reproduced but that doesn't mean that it is genetic per-se.

To have viability as a genetic mutation it would have to be reproducable outside of the original bloodline.

Offspring by definition take aspects of their appearance from both parents. This is after all why you were able to create Pastels through selective breeding, because the traits that you liked in each generation you bred for.

Why should pattern then be any different?

If both parents have similar pattern characteristics the likely hood of the offspring exhibiting the same trait increases.

Take two Suriname boas, if both have strong widows peaks the offspring usually do as well. Some may not, but most will. However if you breed a strongly peaked Suri to a Peruvian with no peaks you aren't likely to get many peaked babies. I chose the Peruvian example because they traditionally lack widows peaks (there are exceptions of course) and are obviously vastly unrelated.

Also, reduced patterns, missing saddles, patternless, reverse stripe, or whatever you would like to call them traits, are enhanced through multiple generations of line breeding. This has proven true in Hog Islands, Hondurans, Nicaraguans, extensively in Bolivian and South Brazilian Amarali, as well as in Guyanan and Sabogae boas. I'm sure there are others. There doesn't seem to be a reason but that excessive line breeding be it as little as 2 or 3 generations seems to cause a loss and or reduction in the saddles. So breeding two alike siblings again would predictably reproduce this trait and likely enhance it.

Still, genetic viability is not proven.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Hello to all, Chris, your post was right on and I agree 100%. In my opinion it takes multiple breeding's with many different animals over several years to prove if a color and/or pattern anomaly is genuinely genetic. Take care. Andrew

I believe you may have missed Jeff's point and actually reinforced it. EVERYTHING about how these animals look is genetic. The example of widows peaks falls under that category as well. Just because it is not narrowed down to a single gene does not mean it's not genetic, just that it's not driven by one single gene.

Jeff statement...

"Of course if we breed these two together successfully and they produce more babies like them, or maybe something even unexpected, that will prove it to be genetic. It will not, however, prove how it works genetically. To determine if what we see in these animals is simple recessive, dominant, co-dominant or polygenic will not be determined in one breeding. That will take additional breeding trials."

... IMO is 100% accurate. If more babies come out like the parents (siblings) then it is genetic, not a fluke or thermal driven anomolie. Does that mean it's a single gene morph - absolutely not, only further breeding trials would (might) work out the method of inheritance.

Of course if it is polygenic (multiple genes involved) it may never be worked out or even possible to recreate short of breeding two visuals together and getting some/all like the parents. The individual genes involved may not have a individual visual marker.

Andrews statement...

"In my opinion it takes multiple breeding's with many different animals over several years to prove if a color and/or pattern anomaly is genuinely genetic."

... is also correct but only applies to proving out a single gene morph (or multi gene with individual markers).
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

That is one of the tough things about the English language. Words mean things. Chris' first post saying that producing more like the parents will not prove those aberrancies genetic is inaccurate. Many Surinam Boas have widows peaks. Why? It's in their genes. It IS genetic. It is not a genetic mutation but it IS genetic. Your first post only said, "Breeding the two together won't prove that it is genetic though". That statement is inaccurate because this breeding might prove the trait to be genetic. It just will not reveal how it works exactly. Now, had you included the word "mutation" after the genetic word, your statement(s) would have been accurate.

Incidentally, I personally think there is a slim chance that we will get anything other than normal babies from the breeding. I hope we get something cool but I think that chance is very small and one I look forward to seeing the answer to... but, I gotta hope right?
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Boaphile Home
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I suppose it is semantics, but when I see the word "genetic" being used, especially in the context of morphs on this forum, I expect that it would mean that it is predictably reproduceable no matter what boa it is bred to.

I am sure others view the word to mean the same thing.

Any new morph that someone gets and asks "Do you think this will be genetic?" is asking if people think it will prove out to be a standard single gene mutation.

So going by the classic word use as well as the definition in application, I stand with what I said. Though perhaps with the clarifying points here.

You also have to consider the great amount of newbies to the hobby that may not be familiar with terminology, but that read forums to try and learn. Limiting confusing information or false hopes they may have to their own animals, is well served.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Exactly the point to list and describe the polygenic trait possibility!!! To give newbies the chance to understand all is not cut and dried, some seems to be smoke, mirrors and/or magic (not really, just looks like it) Just because we are unable to isolate one single gene that drives a specific trait does not mean that trait is not driven by genes.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

a litter of wackerdoodles for sure!! If you'd like to use that name you have my ok. Very nice snakes Jeff, I hope you get a litter of insane stripes or..? Dan

Somebody mentioned a "Super" form. If Supers were a result, wouldn't that prove something?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I think you will get either all like the boas in the pictures or all normal or some normal and some like the boas in the pictures. I think I've covered all the bases there.

I'd be able to make a better prediction if there were pictures of the parents of the pictured snakes and pictures of the rest of the pictured snakes' siblings.

Paul Hollander

The male needs to be outbred to at least one normal female before you can begin to get a handle on the inheritance. If all the babies are like the pictured parents, the pattern could be caused by a recessive mutant gene, a dominant mutant gene (with at least one parent having two copies of the mutant gene), or a polygenic combination. Knowing what the parents of the pictured snakes look like would reduce the list a bit.

Paul Hollander

There are after all four bases on a regulation baseball field 1st, 2nd, 3rd and home plate.

you listed first, second and third but left out tha all important home plate....

First base - "all normal"
Second Base - "some normal and some like the boas in the pictures"
Third base - "all like the boas in the pictures "

Home plate - some normals, some like the boas in the pictures and some yet to be determined "super" form in the event this is a codominant trait.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I'm just hoping that if there is a "super" version of these that it isn't an invisible Boa! That would be a first I guess, but really tough to get pictures of that one...
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Boaphile Home
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The Boa Network

These are random pics from a litter in 05,their all siblings that came from a litter of 11 live and one slug.
Parents were classic form just like the last male posted.
05 Male


05 Female


05Male


05 Male

What say ya'll ?
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TnK

Wow! Those are incredible! If I could just make some that look like this one:

That would be great! So first determine if they are genetic, then figure out exactly how. I can't wait but I am afraid I will have to...

Great looking kids!
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Boaphile Home
All Original/Boaphile Plastics
The Boa Network

I hear ya,part of me says Go For IT,the other says dont get caught up in that mess
That full stripe and the leopard tail is a one off I'm afraid

Thanks,

>>Wow! Those are incredible! If I could just make some that look like this one:
>>That would be great! So first determine if they are genetic, then figure out exactly how. I can't wait but I am afraid I will have to...
>>
>>Great looking kids!
>>-----
>>Boaphile Home
>>All Original/Boaphile Plastics
>>The Boa Network
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TnK

I missed home plate. Good catch.

Paul Hollander

There are after all four bases on a regulation baseball field 1st, 2nd, 3rd and home plate.

you listed first, second and third but left out tha all important home plate....

First base - "all normal"
Second Base - "some normal and some like the boas in the pictures"
Third base - "all like the boas in the pictures "

Home plate - some normals, some like the boas in the pictures and some yet to be determined "super" form in the event this is a codominant trait.
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Thanks, Dave

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Wow this is fun!!LOL
Lar M

Boas By Klevitz

...this!

Best of luck!

Matt

>>What do you think this girl will produce?
>>She was bred by this little fellow:

and this is what ?
Cool but ???

>>...this!
>>
>>
>>
>>Best of luck!
>>
>>Matt
>>
>>>>What do you think this girl will produce?
>>>>She was bred by this little fellow:
>>
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TnK

>>and this is what ?

Central American 'Reverse' Striped Boa.

>>Cool but ???

Proven 'recessive'

Matt
p.s. - Here was momma:

Dat's pretty cool !

>>>>and this is what ?
>>
>>Central American 'Reverse' Striped Boa.
>>
>>>>Cool but ???
>>
>>Proven 'recessive'
>>
>>Matt
>>p.s. - Here was momma:
>>
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TnK