Reptile & Amphibian Forums

one of my adult male nosy be , began two month ago to show signs off clumsyness regarding shooting his tongue. he his only able to shoot it less than half of is normal lenght,and he did not more succed reaching his target.he all time reach only the area over the insect. so I have to help him and hold the insects with forceps so he his able to cach them . once in his mouth, he is eating the normal way. he is approximately one year old, I fed vhim every second day and suplement his food with repcal and herptivite once or twice a week. I did not encounter this problem with others chams even females that just laid never present this condition.othrwise he is okay , has a good apetite, and even breed lastly with a female. Any suggestions

These problems are usually related to calcium imbalance or sometimes dehydration from what I have heard/read/learned. Some people say that cup feeding makes the tongue lazy too. Other possibilities....he could have injured his tongue somehow or may have an infection in it.

You said..."I fed vhim every second day and suplement his food with repcal and herptivite once or twice a week"...I dust with phos.-free calcium at most feedings. I use herptivite twice a month and a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder twice a month since my chameleons don't get sunlight. I also gutload and feed my insects a nutritious (natural) diet.

Are you using a UVB light? What brand and type (compact or linear/tube)? Is there any plastic or glass between it and the chameleon? Does your chameleon get any direct sunlight?

What do you feed your insects?

I use an uvb light, reptisun 5 from exoterra. of course I gutload my insects with a varied diet: quality fish food flakes, carrots , ofanges, rodent food. I also feed a lot with locusts that are fed grasses and oats.I live in Israel and we don't lack sun. I keep my chameleons outside until november, and will soon put them outside again, as days are becoming warm again. when I kept them indoor, the uv bulb was placed directly on the screen top. I keep 4 others panthers and veiled in the same shedule( veiled outdoor also in winter)and the others are healthy, even the females that laid several clutches this winter when kept indoor!

You said..."I use an uvb light, reptisun 5 from exoterra. of course I gutload my insects with a varied diet: quality fish food flakes, carrots , ofanges, rodent food. I also feed a lot with locusts that are fed grasses and oats.I live in Israel and we don't lack sun. I keep my chameleons outside until november, and will soon put them outside again, as days are becoming warm again. when I kept them indoor, the uv bulb was placed directly on the screen top. I keep 4 others panthers and veiled in the same shedule( veiled outdoor also in winter)and the others are healthy, even the females that laid several clutches this winter when kept indoor!"...it often happens that one will be fine and the next one will show signs of problems.

Without going to a vet you/we can only guess at what is wrong with him. It could be a calcium issue or not.

You said you use herptivite, rep-cal and minerall...is the minerall I (indoors) or O (outdoors)? Does the rep-cal have D3 in it?

Look at the fish food, rodent food and anything else that you feed to the insects or the chameleons that is NOT vegetable, grain or greens to see what is in them in the way of D3, preformed vitamin A (retinol) and phosphorous.

The four main players in bone health are phosphorous, calcium, D3 and vitamin A...and they need to be in balance. Appropriate basking temp. also plays a part in that it allows for proper digestion.

Many insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phos. so dusting with the phos.-free calcium powder helps to make up for it.

Vitamin A from a beta carotene source will not build up in the system...but preformed vitamin A will. Excess preformed vitamin A can prevent the D3 from doing its job and lead to MBD.

D3 comes naturally from the sunlight or UVB light which does not pass through glass or plastic...or from supplements. D3 from supplements can build up in the system. D3 from UVB can if the chameleon can not move out of the UVB. If the chameleon is getting UVB only from the tube/linear light then it might need the insects to be dusted a couple of times a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder.

If your chameleon is suffering from a calcium imbalance, then you will need to bring it back into line...of course.

Thank you very much for your detailed reply.I use no vitamin a but only vitamin A from a beta caroten source found in the the herptivite supplement. I also gut load my crickets and roaches, with carrots that are a good source of beta carotene.you siad you said you supplement with calcium and D3 only twice a month. Did you live in europe? I think european breeder tend to suplement less than american breeders. But may be it is because they use products that contain higher levels of vitamin d3, and may be harmful. the breeder of chameleons only , from him I bought this male, recommand using calcium and d3 once a week with adults males. when I kept them indoor I use product with d3, and when outdoors minner all0, or other supplement containing only calcium

You said..."Did you live in europe? I think european breeder tend to suplement less than american breeders...no, I live in Canada.

You said...the breeder "recommand using calcium and d3 once a week with adults males. when I kept them indoor I use product with d3, and when outdoors minner all0, or other supplement containing only calcium"...do you dust with a phos.-free calcium powder in between dusting with the calcium/D3 powder when they are indoors though??

In a previous post, you said..."I gutload my insects with a varied diet: quality fish food flakes, carrots , oranges, rodent food"...does the rodent food or the fish flakes contain any preformed vitamin A?

I gutload my insects with a variety of greens (dandelion, kale, collards, endive, escarole, ROMAINE lettuce, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrot, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, squash, celery leaves, etc.).

thank you for your new ideas, about gut loading the crickets. I never thought to use dandelion and mustard greens for gut loading although I collect plenty of these greens for my bearded dragons every week. you are right they have a good percentage of calcium. I wll also suplement my males food twice a week . I have also a product that contains only calcium and no d3, is it safe to use it on a daily bais? is it a risque of overdose?

You said..."I have also a product that contains only calcium and no d3, is it safe to use it on a daily bais?"...as long as its just calcium with no phos. it should be fine to use it lightly at most feedings.

You said..."is it a risque of overdose?"....calcium is harder to overdose than some of the other things...so I doubt it.

Agreed. I use a calcium (no phos) powder on one (of up to six) feedings daily. I use a calcium plus Vit D powder instead about once weekly (my chams have very little access to sunlight, most of the year relying on UVB lamps).
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Sandra
BC Canada

Sounds like vitamin deficency, but a vet visit would be the best way to find out.

Tongue issues are often the result of injury and/or nutritional imbalances. Possible causes:
- trauma from getting the tongue wrapped around or entangled or caught on something in the enclosure;
- damage to the tongue by a live prey item (i.e. the spiky legs of adult crickets and grasshoppers and even some roaches - which I now often remove before feeding to prevent such a possiblity);
- puncture wound from hitting something sharp in the enclosure
- hand-feeding injuries (if the feeder accidentally grabs or pulls the tongue when it makes contact with the fingers)
- something caught or lodged in the mouth or tongue tissue
- tongue infection
- mouth abscesses
- hypocalcaemia or vitamin deficiency. Nutritional deficiencies are typically a slower, more chronic loss of tongue function. The chameleon tongue's aim may become misguided, or the tongue's reach gradually decreases until the chameleon can project it just a little or not at all. Missing the insects is often a sign of a deficiency in B vitamins (and sometimes vitamin A deficiency). A good supplement containing these usually helps within 1-3 days if vitamin deficiency is the reason.

Old age can sometimes cause poor tongue control.

I suggest you Seek Veterinarian advice. Your chameleon could easily become rapidly dehydrated and starve if he is unable to eat.
Some chameleons that have permanently lost their tongues can actually learn to eat from bowls and will learn to go right up to prey items and grab them with their teeth rather than using the tongue. However, many will just starve unless hand force-fed and watered.
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Sandra
BC Canada

hi Sandra, thank you for your long and detailed response. as far as I am able to do this it doesn't look like any injury or abcess.I tend to think it may be some nutritional issue, or may be hypocalcemia. the problem began two months after I began to keep it indoor.but it began to show this problem several weeks. he is still able to drink by himself, and he eat very well, but I have to hold the insects until he actually grasp them. the shooting of the tongue is very weak and clumsy, but he succeed in eating when I give him some help. warms days are beginning here, so I will put him again in his outdoor enclosure, and give him more vitamin. I use herptivite and repcal and miner-all. I hope to see some improvement in following days with outdoor maintenance, thank you again, Daniel