Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Robyn, I read where you keep one of my favorite monitors - Varanus flavescens. Is this a future breeding project or do you just keep these to have? Could you post some pictures? Finally, how do you feel about CITES? Thanks.

we have worked with Flavis and Argus in the past, but it isn't a secret that i am not a fan at all. i just don't care for that type of monitor.

Frank Retes (FR) is really the man for that group. visually the crosses and stuff are quite nice, but temperament and captive experience wise, yuck. for me.

as for CITES, i don't understand the question : )
-----
robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Robyn, he said, you have Varanus flavescens (not V. flavirufus). And I'm assuming he's referring to it being a CITES I animal (I guess???). Do you actually have one of these? If so, I'd like to see pics as well sir. Rare animal in US collections.

Krusty

whoops. i had three conversations about Argus/Flavis yesterday, i guess i read through that too quickly : )

nope, never worked with them : )
-----
robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

It must be varanus.nl's mistake. They say that you work with flavescens. I am indeed wondering about what you think of Cites I. It seems next to impossible to get Cites I animals yet apparently in the countries where these lizards are found authorities turn a blind eye to all of the harvesting done to these "endangered" lizards.

Cites is an international agreement between member countries concerning international trade BETWEEN these countries. Fortunately for us at this time we do not have a world government and so what the citizens of sovereign nations do with their resources in their countries is none of the cites peoples dang business whether or not what they do may be ridiculous or destructive. Personally while I think the concept of cites is well intentioned (those things that pave the road to hell again.)I think the regulations do a lot more harm than good. particularly with animals on the appendix 1 list. The species would be better served if LIMITED take were allowed for propogation purposes by private sector people. Trapping animals on burning islands to protect them makes as much sense as it would if your house was on fire and the fire dept. came by and boarded up all your doors and windows so you couldn't get out. That just sounds absolutely stupid doesn't it. It should sound stupid because it is. limited supplies of australian monitors and other australian herps have gotten people out there like frank to get these species well established as captive bred animals which is a win-win situation all around. Other than being a serious breeder why would you want a wild caught ackie or a bearded dragon that would have a higher risk of mortality than captive animals. A similar but mixed situation has happened with madagascan herps. Limiting the supply of wild caught panthers has encouraged people to captive breed them pretty much to the point that most of the wc ones are going to be sold to breeders because unless you are trying to come up with new bloodlines why would you risk getting a chameleon that will most likely die in inexperienced hands when you can get a captive one that will do just fine. Parsons on the other hand which are currently blocked from export by cites will probably end up going extinct in our life time which is really sad.

Hi MadAxeMan - I agree with you! That's my problem with Cites. It was well intentioned by the do gooders but really it does nothing to help the wildlife. The nice thing about Australia is at least that country truly protects it's wildlife for the most part. The Philippines on the other hand doesn't. Your burning house analogy applies perfectly for the Gray's Monitor and the other newly discovered Philippinosaurs. They may be Cites I yet the filipinos are razing their forests at unprecedented levels. And because these specialized monitor lizards eat specialized fruits if these forests go, so will the monitors. An ex-situ breeding situation with these rare monitors (including propagating their fruit trees outside of the Philippines) might be the only hope for saving these reptiles from total extinction. Yet the do gooders (I'm afraid including Daniel Bennett) think that NO Gray's Monitors should be exported. Apparently they are better off becoming totally extinct than at least some existing in captivity.

If every there is a challanging monitor thats the one. The idea of growing pandanus palms to harvest the fruit is a good one but the palms take a decade or more to mature. Thanks Ian

is there nothing to substitute pandanus, if nobody is able to keep the species how will anybody know, even if its only a few zoos. i read something today about a u.s. zoo that successfully breeds perenties.isnt that a somewhat difficult species? it just seems from the arguments im reading they are doomed anyway, why not let a few willing and qualified people try.

There are a few people working with them here in the us. From the people ive talked to there are alot of obstacles to overcome. Food requirements being the biggest fallowed by a hyper sensitivity to infection. As far as perenties go I would think finding a pair would be the bigest problem aside from that room would be a huge problem for most people. Room = 40' by 40' outdoor enclosure.

Yes, the Gray's Monitor's future is far from certain. Though Perenties are hard to get, at least their future in the wild in Australia is assured. Even in captivity, I'm sure they would do fine given PLENTY of room among other things. And it appears they will devour anything. I think the only place for sure you can see them in the U.S. is at the Dallas Zoo. Consequently, I don't think that you can find the Short-toed Monitor (Varanus flavescens) anywhere in the U.S. No doubt partly due to that miserable Cites I.

I agree that if someone can prove they have experience with similar species & have intent to breed then they should be allowed to obtain & propagate a CITES species. The problem isn't just with other countries it is with native to U.S. species too. Land developing is fragmenting habitats so fast many species are at risk. Yes the pet trade has some fault but honestly population could still exist if they had space to repopulate. Nothing can exist without space. Monitors need prey/food but can adapt if a slow change takes place. However the change is all to often out pacing the animals ability to adapt. Honestly I think the people who oversee CITES don't really go out themselves to evaluate the situations as a whole. It is obvious to us that someone has to be able to keep them in captivity if the animals have no place to,but all the overseers think is the animals will be harvested for no good purposes.

Hi croc 2-3. I love watching your videos on your lacies at youtube. Congratulations with all of your breeding successes. One question for you. Since you're from Oz, what are truly the largest lacies and perenties you have seen? I've never seen either species so it's hard for me to judge their size from any real perspective. Thanks.

Well, I have decided that I support anybody who is breeding Varanus flavescens or other Appendix I reptiles legally or otherwise. I say more power to you! Cites Appendix I can go jump in the lake!

Wayne,
Perhaps you should actually speak to Daniel before assuming what his take is on grays in captivity.It might be a good idea not to slight one of the only people in the world who has put so much of his time and $ into trying to help this species.
As Ian pointed out pandanus does not fruit in the U.S and even if it did it takes about 50 years to mature.
Cheers,
Ben

You're right Ben. My apologies to Daniel Bennett. I guess I'm just frustrated by what I see going on around me as I'm sure are many others. I wish Daniel Bennett all the luck working with Gray's Monitor and the other even more imperiled newly discovered species in the Philippines. But I'm still against Cites Appendix I when it comes to most reptiles and amphibians.

First Varanus olivaceus is Appendix 2, not Appendix 1. Secondly I don't know where Wayne gets his information about my opinions but they are completely distorted. Thirdly CITES has been instrumental in the monitoring of international lizard skin trade and without it there is no doubt that flavescens would be in a much more precarious state than it is already. Finally. the idea that species like the fruit eating monitors are going to be saved from extinction by allowing commercial trade is simply ludicrous.
-----
Mampam Conservation

Hi Daniel. Like I said, I apologize for putting words in your mouth. CITES I is only good if the signatory nations abide by it and I still don't think some limited commercial trade for some endangered species will hurt (Varanus flavescens). Finally, since you don't like my idea about Varanus olivaceous, what do YOU suggest we do to save it?