Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hallo everyone.

this is my first post on these forums, so please bear with me.

i don't consider myself an expert in herps, so i'm looking for answers to a few nagging questions.

i recently had an acquaintance purchase a very expensive honduran milksnake from a local pet store. he spent quite a pretty penny on the little guy, and was dismayed to find the snake deceased not two days later.

the snake was young - probably only 12-15 inches long at most. he was keeping it in a 10 gallon - screen top, the works. bedding was "carefresh" (the recycled paper product). heating included 50 watts (2x 25watt heat lamps) in addition to a small under tank heater. fresh water was provided, of course.

the snake ate the day of purchase, and had been eating at the store as well.

now my question is - what could have gone wrong? should he not have fed the snake? (the store told him that the feeding is what did it - that the stress doesn't allow the snake to digest properly and can cause death). also, the store insisted that the milk be fed live pinkies, and recommended not feeding frozen for at least a month.

i suppose my next question is - is there any REAL difference (nutritionally) to the snake between live and frozen? if a snake is eating live and is then offered (and readily eats) frozen, will this cause any digestive issues?

i suppose this is a long message, and i apologise. any comments or help would be great!

Like many of us here, I have been feeding ONLY frozen rodents to my animals for 20 years. I believe it is 100% safe as long as the meal is fully thawed prior to feeding.. (This could very well be the reason for the death)

But, assuming that the meals were fully thawed what it comes down to is that some animals just are not meant to survive.

~ Mike Russo

teacher friend of mine once fed a frozen mouse to a gopher snake.....no ill effects....

but Bob, you would not reccomend that to others.. would you?

~ Mike Russo

tat guy didn't listen to my instructions....didn't hear THAW first.....

the snake probally over heated. 2 25 watt bulbs and a heat pad is far too excessive for a 10 gallon aquarium. the heat pad was enough for heat, no bulbs needed at all. the snake probally just overheated and died with no way to thermoregulate.
feeding the first day home is not advised but ive never heard or seen it being deadly i have seen/heard it cause regurge's which can cause other problems down the road but death within 2 days is very fast and i will say without a doubt that the cause was heat.
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 yellow ratsnakes
1.1 albino corns
1.2 childrens python
1.2 ghost corns
1.1 butter(female motley)
1.2 pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
0.1 hypo pyroxgreerixruthvenixalternaxcampbellixholbrooki
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
0.2 albino pueblacorns
0.1 striped ghosts
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo

i thought the same - though the owner of the store insisted that 50watts of heat was not enough to properly heat the enclosure and provide the belly heat essential for digestion and that she'd have "expected a heating pad to be sold with such an expensive snake."

i just wanted to make sure that i wasn't going completely bonkers in thinking that these snakes didn't need such extreme heat!

One question, was the mouse thawed out and warm?

A baby snake ingesting a cold frozen mouse could kill it, at the very least make it regurgitate.

The store is full of crap, #1. unless it is a "Morph" specially bred, there is no such thing as an expensive Honduran milk snake.

#2. feeding live pink mice versus frozen / thawed will not kill it in 2 days.

A healthy "Normal" baby should cost no more than 50 bucks.

Hondo's are pretty, so its easy to rip off someone who does not know any better.

Now I doubt that the heating arrangement would kill a snake that quickly, but there is supposed to be a warm end and cool end of the enclosure (fish tank)

Light cycles mean a lot too, resist turning on the bright light at night, again I doubt that would be lethal in 2 days.

There are many "care sheets" available, and from my encounters on this forum, there will be much advice. Many of the posters breed Hondurans, Pueblan, Nelsons and other milks, so the advice will be good and sound.

If I were a betting man, I'd say the mouse was either still frozen or way too cold... If I am wrong, then the other scenario was that the frozen mouse had spoiled at some point.

Even the "gourmet" frozen commonly sold at pet stores can go rancid if not kept frozen solid the whole time, but again if it was thawed and warm, a rancid mouse will stink.

Another possibility is the snake may have ingested bedding with it's food. always feed in a place with no bedding at all. choking on bedding is a very ugly way for a snake to pass away.

My guess,
Any better ones????

Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey

i'm not sure if the snake was properly thawed or not. the man has several other snakes that are in perfect health, so i figure he's not new to the whole feeding process.

i figure the snake was probably in ill-health at the point of purchase. i thought the owner of the store (who was angry over the whole situation) was full of it when she stated that such things could kill a snake in 48 hours. i, personally, have never had such a problem with my snakes, and figured any problem with the feeding would have resulted in regurgitating or, in the very least, a slower demise.

and as for your comment on the price - it was a hi-orange tangerine honduran.. so yes, a bit more rare than the common milksnake. :3

"it was a hi-orange tangerine honduran.. so yes, a bit more rare than the common milksnake."

Do you mean it was a tangerine albino? If not, then $50 is still the price. Even the best bicolor tangerine albinos are going for $200-300.

Best,
Vinny

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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

no, it was not albino. it was a high-orange tangerine honduran milksnake.

this is the only picture i could find via google. i fail.

You are considering internet classifieds pricing. A local pet store must purchase the snake from a breeder or wholesaler, and then care for it until it's sold. The actual price of the snake is going to reflect the wholesale price, plus care/shipping costs, plus some mark-up to actually allow the store to make money. I'd figure $100-$150 is a fair price for a nice tangerine Honduran found in a pet shop. My thoughts, anyway.

-Cole

Cole nailed it.The going price in a pet store is about $100.00-150.00 for most colubrids.of coarse there will be exceptions.
You can't say that it was a $50.00 snake and the pet store ripped anybody off if they got even $200.00 for it.If the customer is willing to pay $200.00 then the snake is worth $200.00 and thats the bottom line cause stone cold said so.

L8r

I agree 100%!!

An animal is worth whatever you choose pay for it..

~ Mike Russo

It's not the thawed vs fresh mice - that's just nonsense.
I once killed a fine young cb healthy milk like yours by exposing it to a rather cool draft on a one hour drive home. The snake fed once for me and promptly died in 2 days most likely from a respiratory "thing" that was completely unnoticed and remarkably fast acting.
My fault completely.
Jeff

mm. i didn't realise that they were quite that sensitive, though i can see extreme temperatures causing problems. i doubt this was the case here, however, as the last few days have been relatively warm (in the 50s-60s).

Jeff!,.......You just gave me a great idea!,.....I think I just found my "niche" in this very competative snake hobby.

I'm going to start knitting tiny little snake sweaters, you know, like the ones for dogs,..and I'll have all different sizes,....the good thing is, I'll be able to save lots of money on material, because snakes won't need the little arms!.....................what?, no?,....not a good idea?(sniffle-sniffle)....hahaha!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Just to see you knit a sweater that little would be worth the cost! LOL

-Cole

Save some time and cut the ends off of little tube socks!
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

In short, as Adam has already mentioned, the snake either had been overheated(which is VERY likely) due to all the excessive heat sources. It only needed an underneath heat source at ONE END, and the temp should have been between 80-84 degrees. The other end should have an ambient temp of around 73-77 degrees here, and hide boxes at BOTH ends, the water should go here at the cool end as well. This would be optimum, as it allows the snake to thermoregulate itself at any given time. I'm assuming since there was no mention at ALL of any temps here, these were just sort of assumed, and NOT monitored in any way at all,....BIG MISTAKE!

The OTHER likely cause of death would be from feeding such a small hatchling a still FROZEN meal,.. again, I never saw the word "THAWED" being used in your post, just frozen. This will kill a very small snake just as dead as the first problem will. I thaw them at room temp, then warm them slightly to what would normally approximate a rodent's temp.

Last, but NOT least, the people at the store are full of crap, and DO NOT know what they're saying at ALL. A frozen/THAWED pinkie will not cause any problem WHATSOEVER, as long as it was not rotten. The ONLY good reason live are sometimes used with extremely young snakes, is the fact that they haven't fully developed a good feeding response yet, and many very young snakes will sometimes onlt accept live ones, and not dead. It has no bearing on a "danger" issue whatsoever. If a young snake is too stressed from something in it's environment, it will regurgitate, not just immediately haul up and die.

So in closing here, #1, if a thermometer WAS NOT used to monitor temps at substrate level(where the snake was), it likely died from excessive heat,.....or #2, it was killed by eating a still too frozen meal. One of these two killed the snake, nothing else. This being said with over four decades of snake experience.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

this is what i figured was the case.

i, personally, thought the two heat sources were excessive. however, the owner of the store insisted that a heat pad should be used in addition, as "50w is not enough to heat a 10 gallon." the store is very anal about how it exercises its guarantee - so if guidelines are not strictly followed, then the guarantee is void. unfortunately, this seemed to be the demise of the snake.

i'm sorry that i did not clarify that the frozen pinkies were thawed. ;D for me, these things are self-explanatory.

again, this wasn't my snake.. just someone i know. i figured the store was wrong in its suggestions and guidelines and just wanted to make sure that my assumptions were correct.

The problem with making any real case with this, and present it to the store, is still the fact that NOBODY used an accurate thermometer down at the surface where the snake was, and also, no way to "prove" any temps, even if he DID have a thermometer. Unless the whole thing was video taped..LOL!, the store guy can claim all sorts of nonsense. Like,......i.e. "no, man, I said use both underneath, and above lights only if you lived in an igloo in alaska, or something just as stupid, see what I mean?

Really though, I think the buyer should have used more "common sense", and monitored this MUCH better than he/she did, all this heat, and no way for the tiny snake to get out of it at all just doesn't compute with me at all.

Please tell the owner of the deceased snake if they EVER thought a thermometer might have been a good idea with this situation,.....really!

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I'm with Doug on this one. And I'd like to add that ambient temperature in the room WILL affect the cage temps. I've used 1 fifty watt bulb to heat a 10 gallon for several snakes over the years, including a young carpet python, which requires higher temps than honduran milks. My brother had a snake die from overheating a few days after he brought it home, and all he used was 1 light, but the room he kept it in was eighty degrees, so the tank was probably upwards of 90 with little heat gradient. It sounds to me like the pet store owner didn't know what he was talking about and wanted to make the extra bucks by selling a bunch of lighting and heating fixtures. Let me guess: the uth cost about $18, the bulbs about $8 each and the lamps about $12 each. Am I right? That's $58. And please don't tell me it was more than that! I cringe at those prices anyway since I discovered some great online stores.

Anyway, enough of my ranting. I'll just say this is one more unfortunate example of why I always encourage people to educate themselves before walking into a retail store and take any pet store's advice with a grain of salt.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

>>>"I'll just say this is one more unfortunate example of why I always encourage people to educate themselves before walking into a retail store and take any pet store's advice with a grain of salt".

I can't add anything to this!........right on the money!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

First of all KUDOS to lacrimosa for seeking knowledge, what we have here is an employee of a pet store who genuinely wants to learn how to do the snakes right.

We should strongly encourage any pet store Representative who wishes to learn proper husbandry to seek advice from experienced snake keepers and breeders.

Unfortunately, the boss sounds less than reasonable. and that is where the real problem seems to be.

In regards to price, I am sorry to have started a brew there, a deal is a deal if both parties are content with it.

Since elevated electric bills, large bedding purchases , mouse ranching, housings & materials all factor in together, business owners must charge more than hobbyists dealing with each other.

Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey

Some of our snakes - Click here

i appreciate your kind words. i was a bit downtrodden by the whole situation and i'm very pleased to see how helpful you all have been.

i doubt i'll be with this store for very long, as situations like these (being blamed for "improperly" properly advising customers) are becoming more frequent and i just can't stand to see the animals cared for the way that they are.

N/P

Were you using a thermometer to know what the warm area temperature and cool area temperature was in the cage? Successful snake keeping involves providing the proper temperatures. A 10-gallon tank does not require lights AND a heating pad - all it needs is a heating pad set to the proper temperature. You cannot believe everything you hear at a pet store - they are trying to sell you stuff.

It's every snake owner's responsibility to know the temperatures that are in their reptile's cages.

Tim

in all honesty, i work for the store. i was the associate who sold him the snake to begin with. i'll explain a few things.. feel free to not read. ;3

according to store policy, a snake cannot be sold to a customer without a heat source or bedding. that is, they MUST be sold with carefresh and some sort of heat source.

the customer said he had an undertank heater - but i HAVE to sell him something so the heat lamps were the cheapest alternative.

i told him that EITHER would be enough, but that BOTH would be entirely too much for the tank. he said that he had thermometers and could always monitor the heat, and would switch things around if the tank seemed to be too hot or cold. since he has bought snakes from us before, i figured he was relatively versed with herp husbandry and would do okay.

our guarantee also requires that the snake not be handled for seven days, so that it may be acclimated. i told him that the snake had just been fed (the day before), so it wasn't necessary to try to feed for a few days at least.

naturally, when the snake came back deceased, i was grilled by the owner of the store for not properly advising the customer in the following things:

1. an undertank heater should have been sold with the snake, as, according to the store owner, 50watts of heat is not enough to properly heat a 10 gallon tank.

the owner claims that he used both - though i'm not sure if this is actually true, or if he just said so to properly answer the store owner's questions so that the guarantee would still be valid. i wanted to *facepalm* the instant i heard him say this, as i had told him not to do it in the first place!

2. the owner should have been explicitly told not to feed the snake, as the stress of a new environment and feeding can cause more stress, which can lead to death.

in this case, i really didn't know. i figured a stressed out snake would not readily accept any food offered, and would regurgitate if said food was not to its liking.

3. the owner should have been told to feed ONLY LIVE pinkies for a month's duration before even attempting to switch to frozen/thawed.

again, i was flabbergasted, as i was clearly unaware that there was a difference between offering live and offering frozen/thawed.

so in essence, this entire thread was me trying to educate myself on what/if i had done something wrong in the sale of this snake, and if the store owner was right to grill me for such failings.

In addition to agreeing with much that has already been said, a 12-15 inch yearling Honduran has not been eating very much. He should have been closer to 20 inches at least and changing from live to frozen thawed should not have had an impact on the snake provided that it was thawed. We feed mostly live, but we keep the freezer stocked up for times when the rodent production slows down and we do not have any problem switching. It also should be fine to feed within two or three days. We have had customers feed snakes on the day of arrival with no ill effects and that was after being shipped across the country.
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Thanks!

Joe Exposito
Thoroughbred Exotics, LLC
www.thoroughbredexotics.com

wow, what an insane policy, i have tons of bedding and multiple heat sources at home, (not like i would ever buy a lamp from a pet store, when i can get the same thing at home depot for less than $5). i know pet stores have to make their money, but that's what stupid customers are for. Would you guys sell me a snake if i showed you a bag of aspen and a uth that i brought from home? if a pet store pulled that crap on me i'd have walked, and reported them to the BBB.
Mike
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Jayne "The Hero of Canton", Ball Python
Edmund Slackbladder, Mexican Kingsnake
El Diablo "They haven't built a cage I can't get out of" Pueblan Milksnake
(Currently serving 25 to life in a Maryland Supermax)

I agree 100% except, if that is the stores policy (even if it is stupid and it is) and the customer was made aware of it (and he was) and he/she still purchased the snake then don't come back crying when its dead the next day.

Nuff Said,
Shannon

well you don't have to USE the lights, and you can always return them. if the temps are good without the lights, take 'em back. I have been browbeaten into buying things i didn't need by aggressive pet store employees. next day returned it usually tried to speak to a manager, explaining why i didn't need it and was pressured into doing so, and because of of the tactics used by their employees i no longer felt comfortable patronizing their establishment. works wonders, just don't be angry or confrontational.
Mike
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Jayne "The Hero of Canton", Ball Python
Edmund Slackbladder, Mexican Kingsnake
El Diablo "They haven't built a cage I can't get out of" Pueblan Milksnake
(Currently serving 25 to life in a Maryland Supermax)

it is a ridiculous policy, and i have absolutely no problem admitting that.

each snake owner has different ways of housing their snake. just because they don't choose to do something /we/ recommend (that wouldn't otherwise hurt the snake), i have no problems with it.

if you came in with an UTH, we could waive the heating requirement. but to openly state that you were going to house it on aspen (and had said aspen with you) would open you up to a verbal beating from the owner over how aspen is such a horrible substrate, yadda yadda, and that the guarantee would be void if you used it.

this is the second pet store i've worked at and i have to say that the policy tends to do more harm than good.. that is, put off customers who, rightfully, see it as a con.

I have to say I would probably never buy a snake from your store or any store that would require me to buy products that I already own and that aren't necessarily the best for the snake (like glass aquariums). I understand that pet stores and any business exists for the purpose of making a profit. But customers are completely within their rights to decide what form of setup they want to use and to purchase the components of that setup from the merchant of their choice and at the price they choose. For example, last year I purchased a 24qt bag of Repti-Bark bedding from a pet store for $21. I later found the same bag from an online vendor for $14. Combined with my order of several undertank heaters for $8 each (my local pet stores sell these for $15-18), I saved a ton of money even after shipping costs. I have since switched to newspaper, which I get for free and which my snakes seem to prefer anyway. I also find that most of my snakes do better in a plastic tub than a glass cage and I can keep tubs cleaner and the humidity and temperature more consistent. If a pet store owner wants to try and change my mind, that's fine, but it would be a tough sell as I know what works with my animals and have been constantly experimenting since I first started keeping snakes when I was around five years old (28 years ago). I buy most of my snakes from breeders, but I occasionally see something that catches my eye in a store. Sometimes I buy the animal that catches my eye, but I always have the materials at home to have one or more setups ready to go in minutes, including three types of bedding/substrate, heating, lighting, glass aquariums with lids AND surplus tubs in my racks. So if a store refuses to sell me an animal without buying a bunch of cr@p I don't need, I'll simply take my money elsewhere.
I apologize if I seem a little aggressive on this topic, but I see alot of overheated, dehydrated, stressed out snakes in some pet stores. I've also overheard and received alot of bad advice at these same stores.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

i wouldn't buy a snake from the store either - and i wouldn't expect any knowledgeable, self-respecting herp lover to even consider it. that's a very sad fact, coming from an employee.

BTW,
I wouldn't say that you did anything wrong. But I definitely disagree with the store owner. You are right to investigate this and to further educate yourself, and I congratulate you for that.
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1.1.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Thayeri MSP
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Girlfriend, Caucasius Mexicana, Fiancee Phase

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

too hot too dry

......hondos don't need 90 degrees,.,,don't know what the temps were but with 2 lights and an undertank heater.....sounds like WARM to me.......

carefresh is dry,,,I don't like it.......maybe for huge pythons?......but not for small stuff....

......frozen, live, chocolate covered ,,,pinks are pinks.....frozen is actually thought to be better and easier to digest than live.....

...good luck......
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.........

With the 50w light and heating pad, the temp was way over 90. Probably 120. I'm going to test my theory, but I'm pretty sure it was pretty sure it was heat. What State was your pet store in? Not all pet stores are bad. My local pet store is great with their customers, and they are very knowledgable and helpful. Derek

i don't want to rat out my pet store and blacklist it - because we do have good things going for us. our reptile section is just hurting bad because none of the employees are true experts (i'm the most knowledgeable and even that's a horrid stretch), and the owner doesn't care to make changes. (i've told her several things she's doing wrong - resulting in animals dying repeatedly - to no avail).

You might straighten the owner out by telling her how many customers walk out because of her policy. Is it in Maryland?

no, we're not in maryland.

she has already told us that she doesn't care if she never sells an animal because she makes more than enough money off of dry goods. her store, her rules i guess.

so many of our animals aren't even up for sale - for whatever reason (store pets, etc) - which infuriates customers (who genuinely want to purchase them) as well as employees (who endlessly clean up after and feed them).

not for sale? thats crazy! of course sometimes animals "escape" or you could be plagued by shoplifters. not suggesting you do anything illegal, some money could find it way back into the register or the store coffers by other means. but if they are gonna die anyway....
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..1 Jayne "The Hero of Canton", Ball Python
..1 Edmund Slackbladder, Mexican Kingsnake
..1 El Diablo "They haven't built a cage I can't get out of" Pueblan Milksnake
(Currently serving 25 to life in a Maryland Supermax
______________________________________________________

Me; And finally monsieur a wafer thin pinkie
El Diablo: blaggh
Me: ah sir its only 1 leetle pink one
ED: ahh, sod off! I'm full
Me: ah sir hmm? its only wafer thin?
ED: bah! i couldn't eat another thing I'm absolutely stuffed. bugger off!
Me: ah sir, sir just ...just one......?
ED: ok just one
Me just the one.
Me: voila!
Me: bon appetite!.......

>>> "she has already told us that she doesn't care if she never sells an animal because she makes more than enough money off of dry goods".

Ahhh!, yes, that's always a good reason for her to let animals starve to death!(sarcasm)

This broad really DOES have a few screws loose!, it seems that the only reason some might survive this reptile "house of torture", is because YOU work there, and try to sneak help to some whenever possible. I'm glad to see that you don't think this is acceptable at ALL, but her so called "rules" seem to be torturing, and killing animals from neglect. I'm afraid this is ALL too common with snakes. Most of the general public could care less, and wouldn't mind if ALL snakes died, but if they had big brown eyes, and cute fluffy fur, you can bet the authorities would be there in a heart-beat.

I commend you that you genuinely seem to care about the animals(snakes included), and I wouldn't want to see your job get compromised, but if I knew were that store was, I would let the authorities know about it. Again, you're trying to do what you can about it, and offer this dumb-ass good advice, yet the only thing she seems to care about is "green", and I ain't talkin' about Iguanas here either.

Please give her a good smack in the head, to see if that rattles anything back in place for her...LOL!

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I'm not sure what good the authorities could do in this case. Most of the animals are in decent shape, just not in the conditions they SHOULD be in. crested geckos are being kept in way too hot of enclosures, despite the fact that several of the employees (myself included) have stated that the lights need to be cut back. snakes aren't kept in ideal or acceptable conditions (we have a 20 inch red tail boa housed in a 5gallon).. but i don't know what i can do about it.

could i seriously call animal control and have them take a look? i worry about my job, yes, but i wonder if i could do it anonymously. any knowledgeable snake lover could easily see how poor the conditions are. i don't want the store to go bust, nor get in trouble.. i just want the animals to be cared for properly. i feel a bit helpless.

I made a call to a local animal control about a pet store I used to frequent. That call, in this instance, did make a difference. I went back in a week or so later and everything was in great shape.

I had to give my name to AC but they don't tell the pet store they are investigating who called it in....at least in my experience.

Give it a try!
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Genesis 1:1

i guess i was too late to join in the discussion since great answers have already been provided.

My only advise to you since you are aware of this forum now is to buy snakes not from pet stores but from reputable breeders. There are a lot of great people out here (myself included) who truly care about hondurans and milksnakes and breed them not for the money but for the love of them.

If you purchase a milksnake from a reputable breeder in this forum, chances are very high that if something goes wrong, that breeder will work out something for you, either giving you a replacement or something.

Don't get discouraged by your first fatality. We need snake lovers such as you to be part of the herping family!

Good luck.

Ray
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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"