Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've noticed so much cross breeding of the different carpets and was just curious as to everyones opinion. I know it sometimes occurs naturally, but do you think breeders should do it so much if these are the only bloodlines we are able to obtain?

POPCORN....

Trust me...you'll get sick of reading the same crap from both sides....you either are cool with it or your not..or like it both ways.....thats all I am going to say....
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

at least in my opinion. I will say that I would not cross species if it did not involve a morph. There are guys out there who STRONGLY believe in keeping lines pure and there are others that feel even most "pure" lines aren't really pure, so to speak.

I feel it's the sole responsibility of the breeder to accurately represent the animal he is selling. I also strongly believe that although I've only seen a few instances where crossing has actually contributed anything to the resulting offspring, each and every breeder/hobbyist out there has the right to experiment with his hobby.

Lastly, I do wish some of the rarer species would not be hybridized....AT LEAST until there is a diverse captive population available. It would really suck for someone to finally be in a position to purchase a Boelen's(ok, we've still got some time for them) or Inland Carpet only to find that pure ones are hard to come by...D x J Carpets are the best evidence you'll find of this.

Just my $.02
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

I have followed Herpetoculture for many years, and one major thing I have noticed, is Herpetoculture now is more about visual, what a snake looks like...

It seems less interest lies with the actual species or subspecies and more with what the actual snake looks like...ie..High Percentage Crosses and or Jag crosses...Back in the day...High Percentage crosses didn't even exist....but today.....compair a plain ol Diamond to some of the 88% Diamond Crosses that are being produced...and YEAH...I honestly would have to say the 88% crosses are more visually stimulating...

Back then...it didn't matter what the snake looked like, it was more the fact that it was "Fill in the Blank" Species....

I honestly think many people who expereinced those days of just being thrilled to even work with the species....some of those people find it hard to see those same species they where so passionate about 10+ years ago..being bred to other subspecies...so freely...Diamonds come to mind....I know someone who for many years wanted to work with Diamond Pythons, finally got some...years later was actually able to breed them and produce offspring...only to be kinda bummed that many high percentage crosses where more popular and in demand...and in demand for a reason...they are more visually stimulating...and like half the price...lol

I am all for Freedom to do what people want to do with thier own snakes...I kind of fall into that catagory that I mentioned....I still remember back in the early 90's when Jungles where all the rage...and just to even be able to own a somewhat yellow and black Jungle Carpet (All where COMPLETELY MUDDY...and looked so ugly compaired to what we have today) was the most thrilling thing in the world....and I would have NEVER thought of trying to breed it to ANYTHING else....but another Jungle Carpet...thats just how I grew up in Herpetoculture....But the Jungle I have today is 1000% better than that first one I had almost 20 years ago....

I think too...there seems to be two different mindsets...one is along the lines of Selective Breeding...we all have this mental image of what each locality or subspecies of Carpet should look like, and it differs from person to person...anyway..some people feel the urge to selective breed for those characteristics....of that species or subspecies...while the other cares less about recreating those characteristics...and feels the need to expereiment...and see what they can create instead...AND then there are people who like to do both...recreate...and create...

Some people like realistic art, and some people like abstract art.....Some people when getting a fountain drink always search for the best flavored Coke, while others mix 7up, mountain dew, cherry coke, and rootbeer...I personally can't say anything to that guy or gal that likes mixing his/her soft drinks...thats thier choice...

I definately say its evolution of Herpetoculture...but weither its evolving in the right direction thats the personal opinion part...but no doubt Herpetoculture has changed since I was a wee little herper...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

to condone mixing of soft drinks.....how dare you? LOL!

You've expressed some issues in the past of some people getting a Jag and breeding it to whatever comes along...just to make more jags. I feel that what you mentioned about selective breeding may be able to push this practice to the fringe which would be great for this hobby.

As far as high % crosses that are more visually stimulating, I'm all for it as long as they are represented as such. Not my cup o tea, but great for those who like them!
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

I am just curious how somone actually comes up with the exact % of what genes a snake has without a DNA test. For example I do not believe a diamond jungle crossed with a pure diamond makes all the offspring 75% diamond pythons. Just by looking at a snake, one does not know what genes that baby snake may be carrying more of. I really know verry little about genetics and I am not a big fan of crossbreeding. I work with North American ratsnakes. None of them are het for anything. I just recently became really interested in carpet pythons. infact I picked up a pair of jungles and a pair of tigers. The tigers are the only morph I have ever owned. I just fell in love with them wehen I saw them. Thanks
2.2 Fox snakes
1.1 Yellow rat
1.1 Everglades
1.1 Barids
1.1 Okatee corns
1.1 Hendry county corns
1.0 Black rat
1.1 Texas rats
1.1 emory rats
1.1 jungle carpets
1.1 tiger carpets
0.1 wife
1.1 parents
0.1 grandparent
And a partridge in a pear tree

I agree 100%....and your right...there is no way of knowing without DNA testing...

I Personally take the numbers assigned to those crosses as kind of a guage...for example...if I see a 50% DiamondxJungle...I don't really in my head think its a straight up 50/50 I look at it as kind of a description...and a 75% DxJ...would just mean that someone in history of lineage of that snake has mixed in more Diamond than anything else...and a 88% to me would mean...that...that particular snake has more dimaond than anything else in it...

You can't think of the percentage numbers as an exact...its more of a description of the genetic makeup so to speak....

I guess people could just call them DiamondxJungle Crosses....and go by visual looks as to what it might have in it...maybe use F2...F3...ect..ect..but it doesn't describe what was used to make it...you see what I mean...

By saying its an 88% Diamond Cross...I can probably conclude that it was created by breeding a 75% DxJ to a Diamond...not that its set in stone that its an 88% Diamond...just a little more description of what snake is than calling it just a DimaondxJungle...

Thats just my opinion...and how I looked at the numbers...I know people who just call them High Percentage Diamonds too...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I agree as well. I feel the percentages given are more of a classification for hobbyists than anything else.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

eeesh! I bet it kills you to see all the hybridization w/ the rats. I recently gave an unidentified hybrid to a friend who asked me what he could breed it to....I told him NOTHING!
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

I thank you guys for making it a bit more understandable. I can't believe all the hybrids out there. More than that. I cat believe what people will pay for them. Some day people will not be able to find pure blood. Then they will be paying top dollar for them. Just look at the K.S. corn snake classifieds. There is like 10 morph ads for evry normal add. Something that really bothers me is the term "Designer whatever snake" I just saw something called the Tequila Sunrise cornsnake. Whats next the Gucci greybanded kingsnake? I am just venting. I do not mean to offend anyone. Like I said I broke down and bought my first morph in 23 years of keeping snakes. My new tigers. I feel better about morphs than hybrids. Cheers Greg

I do however have a bit of an easier time accepting integrades that could possibly occur naturally rather than hybrids such as superballs and junglots. Just how I feel.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

I feel ok about the natural intergrades also. In fact some are quite interesting. Maybe some day morphs or hybrids won't be the inthing; but intergrades will be. LOL.

Well, some of you have seen the color and pattern variations on my 75% JCP and 25% Chondros. Yeah, they're all still alive and well. There's no way that I could say they are precisely 25/75%. Some have more, some have less, and some are rather normal looking, some are drastically different. AND, wait until the color change occurs from the Chondro genes! It's gonna be fun.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.1 Bloods
1.1 Balls
2.2 IJ Carpets
1.0 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
2.0 Jungle Carpet
0.1 Carpondro
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

While I'm admittedly not a big fan of carpondros, I have to say I was really taken aback by the variations within that clutch. This definitely shows that genetically, there are no rules on dispersion of color and pattern traits.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

Mike, I think that Carpondros probably occur in nature, although with Coastals instead of Jungles, because of the range. That said, the chance of Carpondros growing to adulthood and mating with the parent type are slim, but possible.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.1 Bloods
1.1 Balls
2.2 IJ Carpets
1.0 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
2.0 Jungle Carpet
0.1 Carpondro
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

Yeah, I remember hearing from a few people that the first produced in captivity were actually unintentional and a result of housing a Chondro and Carpet together at a zoo, so I don't doubt natural integration. Does this sound familiar to you? I can't recall the zoo it happened at.

Also, to further explain my comment, aesthetically, not my cup o tea, but I really don't begrudge anyone who likes them.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

"Yeah, I remember hearing from a few people that the first produced in captivity were actually unintentional and a result of housing a Chondro and Carpet together at a zoo, so I don't doubt natural integration. Does this sound familiar to you? I can't recall the zoo it happened at."

The Baltimore Zoo. The reptile house was shut down a couple years ago. My 7' female is one of that group of 6.7 that was hatched. I just had a discussion about naturally occuring hybrids with someone at the Hamburg show yesterday. Looking at the maps and range of GTP, Coastals, and JCPs, Carpondos should be able to occur in nature. I just got a copy of "Keeping and Breeding Australian Pythons", edited by Mike Swan, and I'd rank it up there with the Barkers book, and much of the info is new or updated.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.1 Bloods
1.1 Balls
2.2 IJ Carpets
1.0 Coastal Carpets
1.2 Macklotts
1.1 Papuan Olives
2.0 Jungle Carpet
0.1 Carpondro
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
.1 Brazilian Rainbow boas
0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC