Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a 4yr old Nelson's, originally sold to me as a female when it was a hatchling. Two different people sexed the snake at the time. Now I take a closer look and I believe I have a male since the tail is quite long with no immediate tapering after the vent. (BTW, around the same time, I bought a female desert king who also appears now to be a male. I have in the past several years bought "mates" for both snakes.) Can you visually sex milks as adults? Is it safe to attempt eversion at this age?

Thanks in advance,

Zach

Whatever you do, don't try to "pop" an adult, you'll just crush things up in there. Yes, a very experienced person can usually easily tell them apart as adults. Unless you can post a REALLY good quality shot of the entire underside of the tail, all the way up to the vent(cloaca), I would simply suggest that you take it to an EXPERIENCED herper to be "probed". An adult nelsoni should probe to a depth of approx. 1" to 1-1/4" inches, and an adult female will probe approx. 1/4" to 3/8" or so inches because of the shallow scent glands.

Good luck with it!

~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks for the response. I have seen females with pretty dramatic and immediate tapers, and that seems easy enough to distinguish. However, do all females have a dramatic tail taper? Neither of the Lampropeltis in question have anything close to an obvious taper.
The only reason I asked about adult eversion was this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76Q3xKf7lX4
Its more "rolling & squeezing" than "popping", but its obviously an adult snake of some sort.

Zach

Trying to pop an adult milk is probably no more dangerous than probing. When I get a new milk, I always try to pop it first if I'm unable to visually sex the snake. Even if it doesn't pop, usually you can see enough structure to tell if it's a male or female. You just don't want to press like mad, same as you wouldn't want to ram a probe up the tail.

Also as far as visually sexing milks, you want to look for a restriction at the cloaca in combination with overall tail morphology. Neonates and juveniles can be tricky to sex visually.

>>>"Trying to pop an adult milk is probably no more dangerous than probing"

Adult milksnakes have far too much muscle development to be "popped" easily in my opinion, but in any case, I don't see a need to even try it, when a smooth probing is all it takes. If it's worked for you in the past with no ill effects, so be it, but I certainly wouldn't recommend this method to someone for sexing adults.

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I'd just like to say that, yes, it can be done with adults as you said, ,........I've even done it on rare occasion, but I just wouldn't recommend it being done this way without someone very experienced showing someone how to do it safely, but that goes for ANY method actually....know what I mean?. Any method can do harm when done incorrectly, that's all I'm really trying to get across.

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Found a buddy that had some probes. He determined that one of my Thayer's that was sold as a male but looked remarkably like a female was indeed a male as sold. Also, a desert sold as a female but looked like a male was indeed a female.
The bad news was that the Nelson's sold as a female probed to 7 scales, so is actually a male. I now have 2 male milks! Very frustrating...

Well, at least SOME things worked out for ya!,....at least you KNOW what you have now..LOL!

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Yeah, at least now...
I know I've read several places that Lampropeltis are difficult to visually sex at any age. No obvious sexual dimorphism in either size or other characteristics. But so many sites and literature act like you can visually sex adults...
From now on I'm going to have any "female" hatchling triple checked! My breeding plans are so messed up... too many females in my commons (I recently bought a female mate for my male-appearing desert), and too many males in my milks...
I am disappointed, but too many snakes is a GOOD problem to have...

n/p
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

It is all too easy with female nelsoni to perforate the scent glands and get a "false" deep probe that appears to be a male. They seem to be more delicate than other milk subspecies.

If that had happened, wouldn't there have been some blood or some sort of bodily fluid attached to the probe or seeping out the vent? This was the first and only time the snake was ever probed (unless it was probed the first several weeks of its life before I got it, which I doubt since the breeder was popping them right there and was keeping them communally (mixed sexes)). If the scent glands did happen to be punctured, would that cause serious and/or long term damage? At this point should I just throw the snake in with a known male and see if anything develops?

Thanks for your input,
Zach