Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've decided to do some experimentation w/ my woma eggs this year. As you may remember, there was a discussion a few months ago about incubating woma eggs at temps as low as the high 70's. This caught my interest, as I had some problems last year which I think I could attribute to several factors.

Last year, I incubated 2 clutches at 87-88F. The first clutch was a near total disaster! Out of 14 eggs, one successfully hatched, while most of the others died during incubation (which I have attributed mainly to too much condensation and them getting wet), and 2 fully formed and pigmented neo's were removed from their eggs.

The second clutch was incubated at the same temps, but with less water in the perlite mixture. Of 15 eggs, 9 survived, with several having to be manually pipped and one fully removed (that little runt never missed a meal and THRIVED nonetheless). Again, there were a few fully formed and pigmented neo's dead in the eggs, and the hatching process of the others took place over a span of nearly a week.

This had me wondering about the possibility of higher temps accelerating growth to the point of the embryos using up the eggs' resources before their time. This really made me stop and think about what Brett had said about these lower temps. This year, I'll try incubation w/ the lower humidity (92-94%), which helped last year, as well as lower temps (85-86F).

I'll keep everyone posted, and if anyone has any experiences w/ these lower temps, please post it here so we can further this discussion

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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

hi i wish i could partake in this convo as much as possible but if you could tell me womas gestation period and incubation process and everything like that i would be greatly thankful thanks a bunch

-Michael

Mike, good luck with your experiment it would be interesting to see how it works. Low temps aside I would also raise up your grating out of the perilite with something, I use PVC sections of pipe, but anything will work. If your grating is sitting directly on the perilite it starts to sink in a bit and lets the eggs touch the perilite. I have noticed in the past three years that the perilite wicks more water then it used to and it can cause windows and wet spots on the bottom of the eggs. I think you most likely have had bad results with moisture issues rather then temps. Also you may want to clean off the pieces of sphagnum moss that are attached to your eggs they wick up water and will wet and drown your eggs. I have been hatching womas for over 10 years at 86-88 degrees with good success but my first year I only hatched 3 out of 7 due to moisture problems. Back then it was a big secret and breeders did not share information, even if you bought from them. Keep us posted and good luck! Tom

Thanks, Tom. Last year I used poly batting underneath the eggs to keep them off of the grating as I'm sure you've seen in lateralis' posts. I feel that may have also caused some complications due to difficulties in getting a consistent thickness of batting for the eggs to rest on. The grating is not sunken into the perlite now, but I think I'll add another section to raise the eggs up a little higher like you suggested.

Also, have you had any experience w/ complications w/ the sphagnum particles on the eggs? I'll dust them off to be on the safe side, but until you mentioned it, I thought the small amount would be negligible.

Mike-
Oviposition has been 25-30 days after pre-lay shed for my girls, although I've heard of it occurring as little as a couple weeks after shed. Hatching has taken place roughly 60-70 days later, but I'll have to check my records to give you any more accurate info.

On a side note, Ross has given anecdotal evidence of BHP eggs hatching at 93 days(I think), incubated at temps of 75-81F! Not something I'd like to try with one of my clutches right now, but interesting nonetheless.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

Mike,
Sorry, I did not mean the tiny particles on the eggs. I meant the larger pieces like in the right side of the picture. Normally the larger pieces are stuck on the bottom and if they touch the moisture they can wick it up. I have seen it be a problem first hand but it was not with my eggs. A friend had problems with the larger pieces causing windows and water spots on the eggs. One other thing to watch is if you have very high humidity, which you need, you may have water dripping from the tops of the containers so make sure its not dripping on the eggs. Good luck and I hope you get 100% this year. Tom

How did I miss that little clump. I see exactly what you mean...I thought I had gotten all the bigger pieces off. As far as the water dripping from the top of the egg container, that was my biggest problem from last year. It was condensing faster than I could keep up with it. That problem has been corrected and so far all the eggs look good (except the one that looks to have ruptured during deposition). Last year I was noticing water spots within 24-48 hrs!

Thanks for the well wishes and I'm hopeful!
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

Mike, the way I deal with the dripping moisture is either put another smaller lid in the container just over the eggs on an angle to keep the water running off, tilt the whole container - which would be too late now unless you pulled the eggs out and somehow laid them flat within the tilted container, or put large pieces of tape on the main lid and control where the drops go. Unfortunately you will not be able to keep up with it by wiping it off. Again good luck!

Well, I don't want to disturb the eggs too much at this point, so I think I'll leave this box alone. I'm using 16x10x6 iris tubs and I've noticed less surface condensation than last year...perhaps due to a drier medium, larger sized tub, or perhaps due to the convex shape of the lid.

Either way, at this early stage, I haven't run into any of the complications as last year(which were immediate). I think I'll use the next 2 expected clutches this year to experiment w/ both MI and the technique you mentioned w/ the additional angled lid. This should be a great year for learning and experience for me.

Crossing my fingers...I'll keep you posted.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

Studies in Australia where coil temps of maternally incubating pythons in the wild have been recorded show these temps to be very consistent. Maternally incubating females of almost all Australian python species maintain coil temps in the 86 to 88 F range. Additionally, it appears that Tom’s experiences have proven this out. I would hesitate to artificially incubate below 85 F, as nothing has ever been shown to substantiate any advantage in doing so, that I am aware of, with any python species. There is plenty in the literature regarding incubation temps below 84 F causing abnormally prolonged incubation periods and embryonic developmental issues. I would agree with the other comments in this thread in that excess moisture is most likely the cause of the low hatch rates you experienced earlier.

Kelly

Yes, there's no doubt it was primarily a moisture issue, however, I don't know if that would have caused the full term dead neo's. Right now my temps are at 85/86, which although low, is still in the "safe" range. I know there is a decent amout of field data on Aussie pythons, but was any of this data specifically on Womas? I'm a big believer in the more data the better, so I've been looking and can't find too much on A. ramsayi.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

I have experienced the full term dead babies in the eggs and have attributed it to moisture. I've dried things up and have had much better results.
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Dennis McNamara
Crazy Fools Reptiles
Desnakemon@cox.net

I'll assume the temps were the same both years. That's good info to have. For reasons I've stated, I had a feeling it may be the temps, but considering your experience, I'm glad I took care of the moisture problem. Did you correct it by simply reducing the water in the mix or were other methods employed as well? Thanks.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

I read a paper back in the late 1980’s I believe, by Charles and Shine that dealt with reproductive biology of Australian pythons. The field measurements on maternal incubation temps covered several species of the genera Morelia, Liasis, and Aspidites. I remember that it had a fair amount of information on blackheads, but I don’t remember if they specifically addressed woma’s. However, I do remember that the temps were all very consistent in the 86 to 88 F range among all of the genera.

Kelly

I am planning to allow maternal incubation for three BHP females this year. I am trying to figure out how I can keep the proper humidity in the nesting box. Do you just keep the inside of the entire cage sprayed with water or do you mist inside the nest box all over the mother? Spraying inside the box sounds intrusive to me. Thanks.

Kelly Haller posted pics of his maternal incubation methods. I hadn't seen that technique before, but it looks effective.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1495583,1495583

Yasser, on the other hand does nothing to elevate the humidity. He lets his girls do all the work. I don't know, however, if he has done this w/ Aspidites.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

NP

Like the above posts have suggested it seems like most of your issues were related to wetness. One other thing that may be worth mentioning... At the very end of incubation the eggs oxegen requirements greatly increases. Lack of O2 is one of the most common reasons for full term dead in egg babies. I have two different tops for my incubation boxes, one with only 2 tiny holes for most of the incubation (keeps up humidity and prevents temp changes), and another with about a dozen holes for the last 10 days or so. I don't like the idea of opening the individual incubator containers unless I have to because you let cold air rush in over the eggs. Instead I increase the ventilation in the tops so that I can just open the incubator door and let in some air.

Also, my favorite way to protect eggs from drips is by draping a piece of paper towel over the top of the clutch. If drips fall they quickly spread out and evaporate. Just be careful it is not touching the substrate otherwise it will wick water up over the tops of the eggs.

Regarding Woma info, I assume everyone has a copy of the Barker's Australian Python book? It's out of print, but you can still find it. There's a ton of info in it on all Oz pythons, including everything to do with eggs and egg laying.
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1.1 Blackheaded pythons
1.1 Woma
2.1 Aussie Olives
1.1 Timors
1.1 Bloods
1.1 Balls
2.2 IJ Carpets
1.0 Coastal Carpets
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0.1 Carpondro
0.1 Jungle/Diamond cross
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0.1 child, CB
0.1 wife, WC

I can let you know soon as I have had problems with my incubation. She dropped her eggs before I was ready. So I had to scramble to get an incubator set up right away. For the first 2 days the eggs have been subject to temps between 79 and 84 degrees. Yesterday temps ranged from 83 to 87.6 F.

I do have another problem with 4 eggs that are remaining inside of her. The vet gave her 20 cc's of Oxytocin (she is 7.2 lbs) at 3 pm yesterday and she left a medium sized smear of uric acid in the bag with her this morning at 8am.
She has been in a cooler inside of a cloth bag over a heat pad between 91 and 95.2F since the vet visit.
Anything you could recommend?

Thanks.
Anthony Wrenn