Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am learning how to post pics, lets see if this works.

Scott Potts....

I realize it's a lousy pic that wasn't the point.

Scott.....

I think we may have seen and discussed her before, back when she was a hatchling... Did you get her from Diego??

~ Mike Russo

Mike, I've never posted pics of her before (I didn't know how or any other snake for that matter) She was produced by a private collector in Tucson. Here is a male from 2007.

Scott......

Scott, I have never seen a river road like that and I have seen my fair share.Are you sure it is a river road? did you see the parents etc....

Anyway, good job posting up the pic.

L8r Shannon

Hey Shannon,

Tim Jacobson has been line breeding these to reduce the pattern for a couple of decades now. I've been vending at the Tucson show for the past five years and so has he, it is the only place he sells. The rest of his alterna are all consistent with other locales in appearance. I asked him about his founder stock and he provided a few names such as Tim Gebhardt and a few other names I did not know but he said they were from a long time ago.

I have not seen his breeders to answer your question but as I freely admit I have never caught an alterna and only have the alterna page photo vouchers to learn from. For my education what is it about either snake that would indicate it not being a River road other than the reduced pattern on the female?

I'd like to hear from anyone who knows Tim or has met him at the Tucson show or elsewhere. He vends under the name Amazing Grays. By the way he sells at very reasonable prices (cheaper than generics) so faking a locality for profit would not be motivation.

Scott......

This is just my taste on things, but line breeding one locality to look like another locality is not something I would want to do.

But, at any rate it is a very nice looking animal.

Lance
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

To those that had concerns about the origination of the above line of River Roads. I received this response from Tim Jacobson who produced them.

Scott,
I got most of my River Roads from Ron Michelotti in CA. (who had gotten his from Tim Gebbhard) and Andrew Godambe in TX who got his from Dr. Doherty.

He also went on to point out that on page 41 of Gerald's alterna book the lighter of the two snakes in the upper left hand corner looks close enough to be a sibling. I agree although mine has a much reduced pattern which is why I selected her.

Scott.......

Thanks for the info scott.I have heard of this guy but I don't know him.
Anyway, only thing I can say is you had said he has been breeding them for a couple decades? (thats about 20 years correct?) and I know Andrew and he is like 30 years old so that doesn't ad up.
At any rate its a good looking snake but still doesn't look like a river to me.

Shannon

Ya Shannon my info was obviously misleading, I remembered incorrectly. He has been breeding graybands for many years I guess just not his River Roads. His email to me last night was much more lengthy than our previous conversations at the shows. You know how busy it gets running a booth, we never had time for a talk. Anyhow I'm glad you pressed me it forced me to contact him for info I should have collected when purchased.

Scott.......

Thats coold Scott, but like lance said I wouldn't think that the look it has is desirable for a river road.I truely belive if a pair of rivers were line bred even three or four generations they would be much busier or speckled and not look like that but who knows?

Shannon

Just wanted to say Hey ! Tom(Coach)

Hi Tom(Coach). Wish I could say hi in person this year but it looks like I won't be going until next year. Good Luck!

Scott.....

Hey Scott,
These guys are tip toeing around what they want to say, so I will say it, that doesn't look anything like a River Rd. If you are gonna spend all those years line breeding River Roads to look like Loma Altas or Huecos, why not spend those years hunting or buying Loma Altas or Huecos? Point is, more than likely, yours are not line bred but cross bred. No offense meant, but spend some time looking at the pics on the Image Gallery of the alterna page or get out in the field to see for yourself or ask some of the old timers before you buy that imitation locality. All of the localities have consistent traits that make them stand out if you know what you are looking at even though to the untrained eye, they may look similar.
Again, don't take offense, we only want to help you and keep the locality alterna, true locality alterna.
Later
Rick

Hi Rick, I accept that you didn't mean to offend with your reply but it was a bit condescending. That said, If you'll read the whole post I did not produce this snake as you seem to indicate. Although I have not personally captured any graybands and just started looking last year I have read and looked at every image on the alterna page, Troy's page, Shannon's page, Gerald and Walter's book and everything else I can get my hands on.

I have a great deal of respect for the purity of locales and the lifetimes that many of you have put in on Alterna. I can see that with the reduced pattern this snake tends to look similar to a Hueco(although there aren't a plethora of specimens available for comparison) or a Loma Alta.

I would like to point out the similarities that it has to a River Road. If you look at the following photo's you'll see there are alternates but they have been greatly reduced. In the photo from Gerald and Walter's book, this snake also has reduced alternates that for the most part do not appear on the dorsum. The main bands are also reduced and stop on the sides, well before the venter.

I like what Lance pointed out as to why breed a locality snake to look like another locality. I understand that argument. Although that was not the intent of the breeder it was a result.
I think most alterna breeders are trying to breed their locales to intensify the speckling in Black Gaps, the bright orange in Loma Alta's and the black on black in Loziers to name a few. Those things won't change their easily identifiable localities like reducing the black in rivers has in this case.

Scott.....

Hey Scott, I have caught, bred, and seen more River Roads than my fair share and I agreed with Rick, yours looks very much like it has been cross bred not line bred..And I feel it would take A LOT longer than a few generations of line breeding to actually produce a River Road Alterna to even come close to looking like that..Im pretty sure that most people like the River Road Alterna's unique patterns and would like to keep them true as you would see in the wild...Like the others I just want to be sure we keep the pure localities true. Just my 2 cents.
Later, Bill

Scotty,
Great looking alterna!! I, however agree with saddleman. No way is that pure river road. Not in a hundred years. No way no how. I talked to Tim Gebhart years ago and he personally told me that he breeds pure alterna but not pure locality. He wants to obtaind the highest quality looking alterna but is not that concerned about locality. Sorry to burst your bubble. Thats my 2 cents on this subject. Back in the 70's and even early 80's some collectors were calling Juno Road alterna "river roads" because the road ran right next to the Devil's River. Perhaps Tim acquired some of these and the confusion started, I don't know that for sure. One thing I am sure about is that your beautiful alterna is not pure [maybe not even 50%] River Road [Hi. 170, Brewster county}alterna