Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here we go again,
I'd like an explanation.
If I took a paternless s. pine and bred it with a southern pine,
what would the offspring look like and will they be het anything?
They would be hybrids? Or intergrades?

dme

They would probably be normal blotched generic pines and they would be het for patternless.
Some will call them hybrids and others just crosses but they would no longer be southerns or northens.I guess you could call them central pines and just confuse people?

Shannon

other than.. just glad their not albino. JB

The original asked --
>>If I took a paternless s. pine and bred it with a southern pine,
>>what would the offspring look like and will they be het anything?
>>They would be hybrids? Or intergrades?

The genetics of it I'm not certain, others have much more knowledge of that then I do.
But, if he's breeding a patternless s(outhern) pine to a normal southern pine, how would it be anything aside from Pituophis m.mugitus?

what he would get from a northern blotched x southern patternless.I guess I need more coffee before posting so early in the morn.

L8r
Shannon

p.s. you would get all normal blotched het patternless unless the blotched is het patternless then you would get about half the clutch paternless.

Jus wanna say thanks to you guys

dme

20 years ago or so I had a pair of patternless silver southern pines from a breeder out of California, Vince Scheidt?. I bred this pair together and then also bred the male patternless southern to a red phase northern. In the Southern clutch I got all colors from silver to dark brown to what turned out to be luecsistic Southerns. They were pinkish patternless.
The intergrade southern x northern produced ALL patternless babies that were peach to reddish colored but ALL patternless. It seemed the patternless gene was dominate over the northerns blotched pattern. I'll have to find the pics and scan them.

This is the female Patternless Southern Pine 1988

These are the eggs from her bred to an identical male patternless southern pine

These are those eggs hatching. You can see a sort of brownish one, a tanish one and weird pinkish one. Turned out to be what some have called Luecistic whether it is or not.

I got a pair of those Luecistic ones out of this clutch and here they were at 12 months of age. They turned a pinkish color.

I also bred the male patternless s pine to a really nice red n pine. Don't have a pic of the red n pine or the eggs that I can locate right now but the female red n pine was a deep dark reddish color with nice jet black blotches. I expected an intergrade het for patternless but got 7 or so of these instead. These are all different ones , not pics of the same snakes except for maybe the ones on blue gravel would be the same as 2 of the ones on sand. They were all patternless, not a single blotched one. I didn't keep any past these at 18 months and sold all my pines to someone else so I don't know what they produced later.

More of the red N pine x patternless S Pine.

Using HDEAN's info to follow up on the original question, there are two possible answers:

1. The patternless snake has a patternless mutant gene paired with a normal gene, and the normally blotched snakes has two normal genes in the corresponding gene pair. Expected result:

1/2 patternless babies (with a patternless mutant gene paired with a normal gene)
1/2 normally blotched babies (with two normal genes in the corresponding gene pair)

(Note: What you get does not have to equal the expected result. It is likely to be more or less similar to the expected result, though.)

2. The patternless snake has a pair of patternless mutant genes, and the normally blotched snakes has two normal genes in the corresponding gene pair. Expected result:

all babies patternless (with a patternless mutant gene paired with a normal gene)

If any babies turn out to be normally blotched, then answer 1 is correct for certain. If there are at least 7 babies and all babies are patternless, then there is at least a 99% probability that answer 2 is correct. Sorry, there is no way to be 100% certain that answer 2 is correct.

Paul Hollander

great to hear from you Paul.

NOTE:
Mr. Hollander was a driving force in getting me hooked on Pituophis as a young man growing up in Iowa! I once witnessed a very large, in fact massive, bullsnake grab Paul by the wrist and begin to chew..........Paul kept a rather cool head despite significant quantities of his own blood spilling onto the floor.

Hi John. Actually, you've been doing better things with Pituophis than I have for a number of years. Though those patternless southerns are tempting me.

And that bullsnake chewing on me wasn't that big a deal. He was only about 5 feet long. And I didn't dare make a fuss about it after saying how nice and tame a pit could be.

Paul Hollander

This is what I got from a patternless female with an albino patternless male southern pine.

Scott Robinson

Hope this works