Reptile & Amphibian Forums

After seeing multiple adult males that were obviously overfed, and much larger than they should be, I thought I'd get some pictures taken of me holding 3 different kinds of boas for size reference.

These are NOT young males. The Costa Rican is 4 years old, the Type II Anery is 3 years old, and the Leopard is 3 years old.

The Type II and CR are fed a medium rat every 3 weeks. The Leopard is fed weekly on rat pups. All have bred this year, and didn't show any noticeable lose in weight. The Leopard is breeding his second female, an hasn't eaten since before cooling at the end of September.

Lean males make champion breeders, and don't suffer much from breeding. Larger males not only don't breed as well, and have shorter lifespans from being overfed, but also need recovery time once breeding season is over.

Now the pics. First up, Costa Rican. This boa was born in 2004, and is over 5ft. long, and as you can see, very lean. Like the others he has a rectangular body shape. The body is tall, and the back narrow. Costa Ricans do seem to be more arboreal than other BCI, thus accounting for some of his body structure.

Notice, no narrow head, no round body, all lean muscle and in good proportion.

Now for the Type II Anery. This boa is 50% Mexican and 50% Colombian. Born in 2005.

Last up, '05 Leopard. This is a pure Sonoran from Hans Winner. Many leopards have been crossed to other boas which may account for large size. But NO Sonoran Leopard should be large. This male at 3 years old is shy of 4'. I also have a 3 year old female 66% het Leopard, again pure, and right at 5'. These are SMALL boas. Anything else is either a cross or OVERFED!
Many many breeders have not had success breeding Leopards, and according to my own experience, and that of those who have been successful, this is directly attributed to how they were raised. Sonorans can NOT be pushed, they will mature on their own time, and pushing them to reach "breeding size" has yet to work in breeding trials. I learned much of this from Hans Winner when I first purchased my guy as a baby, and it was confirmed by multiple big names in the US. This year was his first season at breeding and my Orangetail Hypo is now due in May with a litter fathered by him.

This is not pointed at any individual and is to serve as an example for those raising male boas to breed. I hope you all enjoy the pictures as well!
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Great looking boas you have there.
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1.0 ghost
0.1 het albino
1.0 dh sunglow 66% het anery
1.1 anery het albino
1.0 motley 50% het albino
0.1 anery 66% het albino
0.1 anery
0.1 circleback laddertail

Allot of great comments from an obviously young man. I wish I would have had that " good common sense " , Chris, better than 20yrs ago. I have had a saying now for many years that I stand by to this day; " Forgetting to feed your Boas this week, will be the greatest thing you can do for it's health! " Fat Boas period, do not live long and do not make good breeders or produce good litters. Fat slob B.C.I Boas can reproduce for a while and tolerate it a little, but their lives are still cut short. B.C.C. " wich is were my concentration has mostly been put on, " have almost no tolerance for too much fat and that is why very few people except those who have a real understanding of muscle to fat ratios, have bred them with any consistency. Observing many Wild Caught Boas over the years, completely changed my views on what proper conditioning and weights should be. Allot of my friends over the years have given me grief about why I have been so hard on the Morph Market and my feelings toward it. I see many Morphs that are cosmeticaly beautiful and can appreciate the hard work that is put into these " man made creations, " but breeding Morphs is not indulged by me for one main reason. I refuse to invest allot of money in a high priced Morph and feel financial and Market pressure to raise it as fast as I can, so that I can retrieve my investment before the bottom falls out of it. I cannot put money, before what is best for the Boa. I see pictures of Morphs every day that are so fat from being power fed, that they do not even look like a Boa! They look like some big worthless slug that has no gumption to do anything but lay around and take nice pictures for it's keeper. We all have to make our choices and live with what we can live with, but I choose life and longevity. One of my dear friends " from Brownsville Texas " " don't know who that could be? " Is probably the greatest Boa breeder in the History of the Hobby and no doubt, the greatest Locality Boa breeder on the Planet and one trip to his place and you will have a whole new understanding of what healthy and rock solid and muscular Boas are supposed to look like! Nothing like walking through a collection of Boas that all of them look like they are plugged into a light socket, because of how healthy and wonderfully productive they are because of their proper care. I learned a long time ago; " you want what the man across the street has got, do what he does. " Great comments and thanks for being brave and posting truth, " I use to get bashed allot for it. ".........John J

That's what I was going to say -- you never see any obese boas posted by the man from Brownsville. That beautiful back-strap tenderloin is the key to it.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I agree with the Costa Ricans being highly arboreal.
I also agree with the Bci Central American/Mexican male size and form.
Last year I bought a huge male Central American morph that was not interested at all in breeding until he fasted off 3 months of fat. Now that's all he wants to do. He's had three small meals in 6 months (the last 3). Doesn't seem any worse for the wear.
But hey Chris, stop giving away all the trade secrets. Too much success by too many breeders floods the market an kills prices. I am more of a one boa litter every other year fan.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

If you were to give your Boas a 140 degree basking spot and a proper temperature gradient, you could feed them every other day and you'd never have an obese, or otherwise overweight Boa. Giving them a a low temperature basking area (88,89,90 degree etc.) may allow them to perform normal every day functions, but it doesn't allow them to properly metabolize what they take in. This, and a stagnant captive environment lead to obese Boas, or any Reptile for that matter. It's like a car running in 2nd gear, when it should be in 4th. Contrary to what many people think, snakes will use those high basking temperatures and benefit from them. What is the first thing people suggest when treating a URI? Bump up the temps right? This is no different and works on the same level. In ectotherms a higher body temp means a efficient, fast metabolism, an immune system that is not suppressed, and a overall healthier animal that will have muscle mass like you'd not believe. Unfortunately just about all the pre-fab caging options do not allow for these higher basking temps. Achieving these temperatures can be as simple as a bank of 3 or 4 30 watt indoor flood bulbs ( number of bulbs will be dictated by surface area the snake takes up while basking, which will evenly distribute heat and will not burn the animal ). If need be, the basking area can be raised to whatever height needed to get the higher basking temps. Try it and see for yourselves, it definately changed my way of thinking.

I agree in principle, but don't think it is practical in captivity, given the constraints of cage space with multiple animals. May be possible with just one or two boas and huge caging.
Thermal regulating is extremely important. I have tortoises that haul themselves out every morning while temperatures are still in the lower 50's. They seek out direct sun in a sheltered spot out of the wind, surface temperature can easily reach 100 degrees within no time.
Snakes are the same, no doubt. It's just not practical to provide such a diversity of microclimates with the size of cages and tubs we commonly use.
The next best thing in my opinion is lower temps (78 to 86 deg.F) and less food. My boas seem most comfortable at about 80 to 84 deg. F.
I'm not claiming to be a big time boa breeder. Just years of observation of reptiles in general. Just an opinion.
I could change my mind tomorrow, of course.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Swimming upstream !!

Love It !

>>I agree in principle, but don't think it is practical in captivity, given the constraints of cage space with multiple animals. May be possible with just one or two boas and huge caging.
>>Thermal regulating is extremely important. I have tortoises that haul themselves out every morning while temperatures are still in the lower 50's. They seek out direct sun in a sheltered spot out of the wind, surface temperature can easily reach 100 degrees within no time.
>>Snakes are the same, no doubt. It's just not practical to provide such a diversity of microclimates with the size of cages and tubs we commonly use.
>>The next best thing in my opinion is lower temps (78 to 86 deg.F) and less food. My boas seem most comfortable at about 80 to 84 deg. F.
>>I'm not claiming to be a big time boa breeder. Just years of observation of reptiles in general. Just an opinion.
>>I could change my mind tomorrow, of course.
>>jsc
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>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer
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TnK

References on those that would support such ?

>>If you were to give your Boas a 140 degree basking spot and a proper temperature gradient, you could feed them every other day and you'd never have an obese, or otherwise overweight Boa. Giving them a a low temperature basking area (88,89,90 degree etc.) may allow them to perform normal every day functions, but it doesn't allow them to properly metabolize what they take in. This, and a stagnant captive environment lead to obese Boas, or any Reptile for that matter. It's like a car running in 2nd gear, when it should be in 4th. Contrary to what many people think, snakes will use those high basking temperatures and benefit from them. What is the first thing people suggest when treating a URI? Bump up the temps right? This is no different and works on the same level. In ectotherms a higher body temp means a efficient, fast metabolism, an immune system that is not suppressed, and a overall healthier animal that will have muscle mass like you'd not believe. Unfortunately just about all the pre-fab caging options do not allow for these higher basking temps. Achieving these temperatures can be as simple as a bank of 3 or 4 30 watt indoor flood bulbs ( number of bulbs will be dictated by surface area the snake takes up while basking, which will evenly distribute heat and will not burn the animal ). If need be, the basking area can be raised to whatever height needed to get the higher basking temps. Try it and see for yourselves, it definately changed my way of thinking.
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TnK

How many litters have you produced with that scenario, Eric? That all sounds great for Monitor Lizards, but if you keep Boas at a high temperature extreme, you will soon hit the bullet. Sure " new and improved schemes, allot of times seem to make perfect sense and might even at first allow us to convince ourselves that we have somehow had a stroke of great wisdom and opened a new key to success, but the proof is in the long run and the productivity of the animals under the New and Improved Husbandry Technique. " Most people, " especially those who have never been to the Jungles of S.A." seem to not understand the meaning of average Jungle Temperatures. The average overall temperature in the Rainforest is around 77 degrees with 90 to %100 humidity. Most of the Boas found on expeditions, are not found basking on a sandstone next to a creek or river in direct sunlight. They are found under brush piles and logs; " wich works well considering that they are ambush predators from the time they are born, until they die. " Do they bask? Yes, absolutely they do, but then it is pretty common to retreat to their favorite hiding spot and sometimes not move out of it for a week and I promise that the places that they are being found, wich is the places that they feel the most secure for privacy and hunting is nowere near the temperatures that you are suggesting. Believe me; " There is not a hair brained scheme out there that I have not tried over the last of better two decades, but I can tell you one thing and one thing only that worked for proper digestion and health and productivity and that is proper thermoregulation. " They need to be as cool or as hot as they choose to be. If you want to give a Boa an 140 degree hot spot, feel free to do so, but you better have a spot somewere in the 70's that they can get in or you will have problems at a later date and your productivity will be down the tubes. .........John J

killed a few have ya?

>>How many litters have you produced with that scenario, Eric? That all sounds great for Monitor Lizards, but if you keep Boas at a high temperature extreme, you will soon hit the bullet. Sure " new and improved schemes, allot of times seem to make perfect sense and might even at first allow us to convince ourselves that we have somehow had a stroke of great wisdom and opened a new key to success, but the proof is in the long run and the productivity of the animals under the New and Improved Husbandry Technique. " Most people, " especially those who have never been to the Jungles of S.A." seem to not understand the meaning of average Jungle Temperatures. The average overall temperature in the Rainforest is around 77 degrees with 90 to 0 humidity. Most of the Boas found on expeditions, are not found basking on a sandstone next to a creek or river in direct sunlight. They are found under brush piles and logs; " wich works well considering that they are ambush predators from the time they are born, until they die. " Do they bask? Yes, absolutely they do, but then it is pretty common to retreat to their favorite hiding spot and sometimes not move out of it for a week and I promise that the places that they are being found, wich is the places that they feel the most secure for privacy and hunting is nowere near the temperatures that you are suggesting. Believe me; " There is not a hair brained scheme out there that I have not tried over the last of better two decades, but I can tell you one thing and one thing only that worked for proper digestion and health and productivity and that is proper thermoregulation. " They need to be as cool or as hot as they choose to be. If you want to give a Boa an 140 degree hot spot, feel free to do so, but you better have a spot somewere in the 70's that they can get in or you will have problems at a later date and your productivity will be down the tubes. .........John J
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TnK

You make a lot of sense and care more about the snakes than money.Most people are the opposite.How ever I would pick someone who bred a lot of different boas before anyone else-Gerry Marzac

I killed a little Asian Ratsnake the other day.
She had an RI. I was mixing up my home potion of antibiotics doing things the old way. She was coming around. She was making progress. Of course, I knew it all. I was bullet proof. My ego was out of control.
One last treatment ought'a do it, right? Well, over did it and killed her. Quite a leveling of the pride. The poor snake paid the ultimate price for my stupidity. Just one more chapter to add to my continuing Ophidian education.
Back to the snake treatment, the subject of heat. Something in my head told me -- if I can just set her up where she can stick her head out and get it warmed up with some good old solar radiation, that would do the trick. Never got around to it. Seemed like a good plan, but just how to go about it?
These animals are like little solar energy storage cells. Some need more heat and some need more UV, and supplements support a lot of what they're unable to get in captivity, but it is the key.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I agree wholeheartedly - if you give a reptile the range of choices you describe, you can feed them as often and as much as they'll take without too many negative side effects. Of course, this is modified by knowledge of species and individuals - if you know your snake is a garbage disposal that always eats, either change that snakes husbandry or don't feed it that much because it will end up fat. That is common sense, much along the lines of knowing that if you give a labrador retriever as much as it'll eat and not enough exercise, you will have a fat sausage of a lab instead of a healthy, fit dog.

I have not had much experience with boas, but I have seen in other species that when you give them choices, they will utilize the full range. They don't need to have all extremes of choices available all the time, but they do need the middle range available at all times.
That means they can get nice and hot (100 degrees plus), but they need to be able to get cool too. They can also get cold, but they need to be able to warm up. Even though my house has been in the high 60s most of winter, I don't always find my snakes huddling the warmth. But, they also have not been eating nearly as much as they do during the summer. Imagine that!

Knowing your snakes and providing them a range of choices results in a healthier animal...but then, this is true for almost any species, not just reptiles.

~jenny
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)

I must be taking that 140° a bit too literal. I keep trying to look past it, but the letters just keep getting bigger, and bigger.

Although I agree completely a warmer Boa metabolizes food much better, fights off illness better, I think you'd have a dead Boa before long at those temps, even with a proper gradient.

Don't get me wrong, I've kept sick Boas at a hundred, even a little over, checking with diligence. But would never set any of my healthy ones at temps like that. Only one of my animals ever became sick on me. But I've rescued several that were already sick.

My 2¢
Rick

..

>>If you were to give your Boas a 140 degree basking spot and a proper temperature gradient, you could feed them every other day and you'd never have an obese, or otherwise overweight Boa. Giving them a a low temperature basking area (88,89,90 degree etc.) may allow them to perform normal every day functions, but it doesn't allow them to properly metabolize what they take in. This, and a stagnant captive environment lead to obese Boas, or any Reptile for that matter. It's like a car running in 2nd gear, when it should be in 4th. Contrary to what many people think, snakes will use those high basking temperatures and benefit from them. What is the first thing people suggest when treating a URI? Bump up the temps right? This is no different and works on the same level. In ectotherms a higher body temp means a efficient, fast metabolism, an immune system that is not suppressed, and a overall healthier animal that will have muscle mass like you'd not believe. Unfortunately just about all the pre-fab caging options do not allow for these higher basking temps. Achieving these temperatures can be as simple as a bank of 3 or 4 30 watt indoor flood bulbs ( number of bulbs will be dictated by surface area the snake takes up while basking, which will evenly distribute heat and will not burn the animal ). If need be, the basking area can be raised to whatever height needed to get the higher basking temps. Try it and see for yourselves, it definately changed my way of thinking.

I agree, I mean a snake has scales but is pretty much just as sensative as our skin. Id love to see someone out "sun tanning" In 140 degree weather. Theres a reason the only places on earth that get that temp are deserts.
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That's probably why so many hefty adult male Leopards are on the market. Owner's thought they were duds, maybe.
Male Central American and Mexican Boas are my most fastidious feeders, but they continue to grow and do well.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Great Post !
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TnK

Nice post Chris. You got some nice looking boys.

Rick

And adult females, pre-breeding weight? I know there are different ideas about feed'em and breed'em, appropriate muscle mass vs. fat, etc. but I am amazed by some of the females I see, looks like they are gravid before they have been bred (or fatter). I also understand that too much fat can cause poor production, or failure to ovulate. So, what does a normal, (generic mainland BCI, Colombianish) adult, optimal-to-breed female look like?
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uncommonboa.com

I'll have to wait to get some shots this summer of my girls. All are gravid, except for one which should be nearing ovulation.
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Gilbert Boas
The Boa List!

Nice.... Its nice to see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats what my male look like.
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Richard Ceniceros
Tap or take a nap