Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It seems like MBD is becoming very common. I was curious if there were very early symptoms that should sound off alarms other than broken bones. Does anyone know if their eating pattern changes...how about there color?

Early symptoms are:

Prospective keepers not doing the proper research before making impulse purchases.

Prospective keepers believing what their told buy greedy, unscrupulous, ignorant retailers that don't have any sense of ethics or morals.

New keepers trying to save money by purchasing cheaper, less effective supplements.

Etc, etc, etc..

Sorry, this topic is really getting to me lately.

Seriously, appetite does decrease some, motor skills and coordination decline slightly, and small twitches and spasms are visible. There is usually a tendency to sleep during periods that the animal should normally be active.

This all takes place before the bones become visibly curved or broken. Obviously a vet could diagnose the defficiency before any external manifestations appear.

E
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I find it quite stupid to blame MBD on keepers who know nothing, retailers who know nothing, and the cheap.

Ive just realised my cham has MBD. I got him from an awesome,and very successful breeder who's home was spotless, her enclosures were awesome, and her chams were healthy as horses. She told me which bulbs to buy and all. I have the UV-A UV-B bulb,12 hours a day, cheap? That sucker cost be $30. I dusted crickets once a week with miner-all supplement that cost me $10. Cheap? Yeh,ok...? This is not my first cham, I've had many of different species of chams before, this is my first cham with MBD. I did everything i could to prevent it,but obviously things happen.You cant tell all of us something was our fault,and we're stupid, because evidently this wasnt my fault, things happen. it sucks hes the one to suffer, and i suffer seeing him this way.

I have to agree with you Spyder girl. I've bred and raised Veileds forever and although most of the time it is do to unimformed or inexperienced keepers, sometimes it just happens.

I agree that it seems harsh and even a bit arrogant to blame the inexperienced keeper - after all, every one of us was inexperienced when we first started out keeping chameleons.

Over the past few years, my hubby and I have come to the conclusion that sometimes, there are those in a clutch that were predestined to be weak. After all, in the wild, the hatchlings have to dig their way out of the dirt; find a place to hide; find food; find water; and keep from getting eaten. Not all were designed to survive. Some are predestined to be weak and become food for predators.

When we take all the elements of hardship away and "captive breed and hatch" these creatures - we are, in effect, playing God to a certain degree (IMHO). We are trying to make a success of each and every one - and it just wasn't meant to be. Not every time. Not every cham.

Many breeders do raise the hatchlings in optimum environments and give them an excellent start - but often this may only be postponing the inevitable. The reality is that thousands die from such weaknesses in the wild each year. We can turn the tide for many, but not all. It may break our hearts, but we cannot expect to save each and every one.

Even the most experienced keepers learn new things about these creatures with each passing season. Hence, these discussion forums.

Just our $.02
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I think it's the growth rates...
ALL I did when I raised veilds was dust with Rep-cal, virtually no gutloading, ZERO UVB, and ZERO MBD. However, I only fed them once a day, and ALL of my veilds reached adult size at 12-15 months, they were half the size of some other breeders' veilds at 6 months of ge, yet they all grew up fine.
Everyone else I knew that was breeding them had MBD problems, but their veilds were fed 2-3 times a day, as much as they could eat each time.
I think that that growth rate is unnatural, and that veilds would have less occurances of MBD if they were fed less at an early age.
This probably is one of the reasons, coupled with the fact that, in the wild, the ones that survive to breed have been "naturally selected" from the start. Some didn't hatch, some couldn't climb out, some were too small, etc. After growing up, some would have been more desirable tothe receptive females, and therefore got more mates. These factors are not implemented in captive breeding. Definatly is the captive population(as a whole) genetically WEAKER than the wild population. Most people cannot find it in their hearts to cull out babies, but because of that, we may have some problems.

Maybe all of my veilds that made it were stronger because of Rainbow mealworms screwing upa nd sending me 1/2 inch crickets instead of pinheads...I lost some of the tiny ones in one clutch because of it. natural selection in the home, I guess.

I'm sure genetics plays at least some part in it. Although, a local breeder ONLY breeds from WC stock, and he's seen some of his customers animals come down with MBD as well.

NP

Yup, we are setting ourselves up for trouble. If a breeder "power-feeds" the hatchlings (and many do) the chams body grows too fast for the bones to keep up - thus early MBD signs. The extra weight of a bigger body on paper-thin bones - leg bones that are the thickness of 3 human hairs..... no wonder they get bowed legs.

Here is an example:
Recently, we split a clutch of panther babies with another breeder. As the weeks went by, it was always an bragging issue of how much larger their babies were getting! I wasn't worried.

At the time they were put up for sale, I noticed some problems with a couple of their males...... sure enough - curved leg bones. I even took one to the vet to get validation - he found 5 leg breaks.

I have had no such problems with any of our group, smaller chams, yes - but no curved bones.

In a recent clutch of our veiled, I noticed several that were just not up to par. I resisted the "special care" that I can give and waited for the "natural selection" to be demonstrated. I would watch the group eat.... these were just not getting with the program. We ended up "culling" several from that clutch.

I truly believe they are not all supposed to survive. A responsible breeder should know where to draw the line, and keep the bloodlines strong.

IMO - the main problem IS growth rates... why?
Because of the $$$$$.
Many new breeders just want to have the biggest, the fastest, so they can sell them first for the most $$$$ - thus the bloodlines are genetically getting weaker and weaker. Heck, first it was inbreeding, now it is "mass production".....

By the time the veiled F2's are born (and certainly F3's) from those "power-fed" babies, their offspring are doomed to health problems. Time to rethink "bigger is better"
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well,i think bigger Is better, as in I like BIG veilds...however, overfeeding and fast growth is NOT the answer.

I really love my animals, and so much goes into them, I don't think I can bring myself to activly kill off the unfit ones...I certainly don't hold them back for breeding.
When you look at animals in the wild,such a small percentage survive. I have seen clutches of veilds in captivity where a few are much bigger, and uch more colorful than the rest--some are tiny, and uglier. these guys probably would have not made it past trial # 2. ( #1 being hatching, #2 being digging out)
some wouldn't make it past hatching--in the wild, they all hatch at the same time. We separate eggs in captivity, so they hatch when they're ready. The result is that some that would have hatched a bit premature & weak, might have a shot, while in the wild, they'd be stuck in the earth.

A percentage doesn't hatch( some are less fit to hatch),
a percentage doesn't dig out(less strong),
some are too slow, ( weeded out by predation,
some too small( dessicate more eaisly, can't survive food shortages--the difference between a dying after 2, or 4 days without eating is huge to something as small as a baby chameleon, and I saw this first hand when I ran out of pinheads-the small ones that died, died off quickly, the others were fine),
Some are colored less brightly(sexual selection, a form of natural selectin, can play a big role on who gets to reproduce more than others, especially in visually oriented animals like chameleons).

these are simply not factors in captivity. In the wild, each generatin has been screened by the forces of nature. Each succesive generation is the offspring of the few that proved to be the best, that made it.

One of my female deremensis, obtained as a juvi/sub adult, had a missing eye. The top of her eye socket was chipped, and healed oveer, and her eye, while missing, was not infected, and the injury healed. She had a small chunk out of her back fin.
She obviously had been attacked by a predator/large chameleon. She had her eye destroyed, and some damage to her head and back. But she survived in the wild--as a baby--to totally heal by the time she was 2inches SVL. From watching her grow the past several months, it is clear how she survved. She is the most aggresive eater, never missing an oppurtunity to eat, eating everything I put in from of her-she even tried to shoot her tongue at my face a few times- she has NO fear of me, or anything. She out eats themale she's with(they're in a BIG open enclosure I have to hand feed them, otherwise, she will eat everything. Most deremensis hold their prey in their mouths for a minute or so, before swallowing--she doesnt--she eats like a veild, always in a hurry. She's growing eeven bigger than the male--she should, she can eat 10 times as fast as he does. She will make a fine breeder--the tough little turd she is.

What I have done is to wait until I found a great bloodline to start with, my veild, from Flash, at kammerflage, is a great start. I want to be very selective with the breding, only breeding him with other, colorful, big, veilds...hopefully, I'll get my hands on some WC big ones soon...

How do we set an appropriate feeding schedule?

I always fed my chams once a day. they are 4 months now ad about 5 inches SVL. i think that is crazy considering the ones a local man has are the same age but 2 inches smaller. so i see wher eyou mean the breeders are power feeding them. people buy healthy animals. a fat,plump,eating chameleon looks liek a healthy animal. maybe my moving them down to one feeding a day,as oppossed to the breeders 3 smaller meals a day made him weaker. don't see how so considering the 2 females i have that were born the same time(different loodlines) show absolutely no sign of MBD. I agree it is just survival of the fittest does not always apply in captivity. Knowing that my cham wasnt suppossed to make it, but so far is, is a good feeling. But now that hes suffering with bowlegs and possibly future ailments, makes me not so sure if being happy hes alive is okay. He only suffers in the end.

I wouldn't say he "Wasn't supposed to make it" that's a bit of a stretch. If he is that old, and that big, I would have to say he's probably outgrown his bones! My veilds didn't reach 5 inches S/V lenght until they were about 6-7 months old. However, my WC male was a little guy, only 12" long TOTAL. And all the babies I got from him were 14" or less...but man, were they absolutly gorgeous. Perfect coloration. As close to symmetrical coloration, the bands and stripes were perfect, no blurry lines, just perfect.......I wish I had kept that bloodline going. I was a Sophomore in college, having some troubles in class, and even more troubles with my girl"friend" at the time...It's amazing how un-important my animals became when I had my heart RIPPED out...I'll never forgive myself for neglecting my animals. If I had just gotten ONE little female, I could have kept his line going...couldn't motivate myself, alas...anxiety too overwhelming...

I should scan in some of those pics.

As you can see, I'm at work, but I have nothing to do, so I'm typing my brains out...
My boredom at work is one of the reasons I've been able to post so much recently.

Well, soon I will be getting moved to the field biologist position, and I will actually be doing biological surveys, etc..so that should be fun...

put that B.S. in Zoology to some REAL work...

I would say that a baby veild, from hatching to about 2 months, should get rep-cal every other feeding. However, some breeders have told me they don't supplement for the first several weeks, relying on gutloading and UVB.
Being that I have not bred veilds in years, I would have to say that they are probably on the right track...
Especially with MV bulbs.
WIth MV bulbs, I would use rep-cal once a week, until they're 2 months old, then cut back to every other week--just because the MV bulbs are new, and not 100% proven to ME.
With MV bulbs, however, I would use a very VERY light dustng, on only a few insects. There's a big area between too much and too little. With a MV bulb, you're PROBABLY going to have good blood levels of D3, but JUST in case, a TINY bit cannot hurt. Too much WILL hurt.
I would also use herptivite every 2 weeks, until 2 months old, then go monthly. With good gutloading, vitamins are less important.

If you're not using a MV bulb, I would do rep cal every 3 or 4 days, until they are 6 months old or so.

These are what I have done with the Few baby chameleons I have raised within the past 3-4 years(no MV bulbs, no Sunlight)
It is not definate, it is what worked for me.

My male veild, that I have now, was about 1.5-2 months old when I got him from the Kammers. I gave him Minerall, then rep-cal. He had NO UVB lights, and spazzed out when I took him outside for sun(he actually dug under the paper or into the dirt, so it was useless).

With Zero UVB, using only minerall and a monthly dose of vitamins, he grew up with no problems. He was about 10 inches at a year. Now he's over 17". When he was about 12" or so, he started to hold himself up a little more weakly than before. I noticed that when on the ground, he wasn't as tall, and his grip was weaker. My miner-all had expired a year earlier! I had bought it,and it was nearly expired! I immediatly bought some Rep-cal(which has moreD3 in it). After a week or so, giving him rep-cal 2-3 times, he was fine again. his grip was incredible.
You do not NEED UVB lights, but MV bulbs work so well, that you don't have to worry so much about d3 levels. without UVB in good amounts, they DEPEND on rep-cal. With MV bulbs, rep-cal is merely a supplement, as it should be, to ensure levels are good. I know of at least one local breeder that uses NO calcium/D3 supplements, only MV bulbs, and has ZERO MBD.
I just haven't used them to raise babies myself...I need to try that.

So out of all this,all of us telling how we do what and what we dont do, the answers are still the same. It depends on the cham itself i suppose. whether you over supplement, have it down perfectly,or dont do it enough,there are still cases of MBD no matter what. Its inevitable in some chams maybe.

>>So out of all this,all of us telling how we do what and what we dont do, the answers are still the same. It depends on the cham itself i suppose. whether you over supplement, have it down perfectly,or dont do it enough,there are still cases of MBD no matter what. Its inevitable in some chams maybe.
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Well, after reading the resultant posts, I see why MBD is such a common problem. I sit here in total awe at the level of ignorance that persists on this forum. I can hardly wait until all species of chameleon hit CITES appendix 1. At least they'll have a better chance of survival in a logged out clearcut than in the hands of the average north american herp keeper.

More disgusted than usual,

E

be careful endo....you might fall off your soap box
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Matt

That may be, fortunately that is the purpose of a public forum. Honestly, there's no possible way for anyone to knock me off of it.

Try searching the cham forum using keywords like dead, dying, etc. If you're not careful, you might start to see my point.
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Warning: this product may contain traces of nuts!

>>Well, after reading the resultant posts, I see why MBD is such a common problem. I sit here in total awe at the level of ignorance that persists on this forum. I can hardly wait until all species of chameleon hit CITES appendix 1. At least they'll have a better chance of survival in a logged out clearcut than in the hands of the average north american herp keeper.
>>
>>More disgusted than usual,
>>
>>E

Endo,
Interesting that the ignorant should point the finger at ignorance don't you think? You never did reply to my responce to your information....see linked thread.
Chris
Click here to see which thread I'm refering too

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Chris Anderson
arsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com" target="_blank">parsonii_hoehnelii@hotmail.com
Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) - http://www.geocities.com/ccicenter/
Chameleons Online E-zine - http://www.chameleonnews.com/

wow
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That's it, screw you guys!
I'm goin' home

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