Reptile & Amphibian Forums

my dumerils monitor which i got not too long ago has stopped eating. its a 22 inch long ltc monitor. he was eating fine, then started to refuse simple foods, so i figured id try some new food items. hes refused insects of many types, f/t and live mice, hoppers, ect. i cant find a place which will carry either crayfish or crabs readily enough to try those, if he gets into them. i was told to try beef hearts, or live feeder fish. does anyone have any other suggestions as to how to get him to eat again? hes usually active, especially in late afternoon. the hot spots about 94, and the rest of the tank is in the mid 80s. the coolest part is 82. he loves to go into the water bowl and soak, which is about 18 inches in diameter. is there anything i could do to improve the enclosure, because i have a slight feeling it could be stress related. i checked the stools, and the urine, and the bowl and found no worms when looked at under a microscope, thus ruling out most parasites. he also isnt
discharging anything from his nose, or mouth.
thanks a lot for the help

Your temps are too low, try 110-130 as a surface temp for basking. Make sure you have a good thermal gradient in your enclosure, dums will utilise temps from 70-130F.Do not keep this species in aquaria, if you have an open toped/screen top set up you will not be able to hold the humidity that this species requires.
Crayfish and shrimp can be exellent prey items providing they are whole bodied (not just tails).These are preferable for dumerils and much cheaper than mice.
Good luck,
Ben

thanks, ill increase the temp, but the crayfish, do you know of any stores that carry them on a regular basis, ive only found ghost shrimp.

I think I'll get the answer to your Question as my next tattoo.......Google crayfish!
Ben

Ben,
Do I need to even ask you where you're gonna put that tattoo?

Catch ya later!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Ben
Sounds like a t pretty cool tatt Brother!
Post photos after your sit.
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

Use a basking spot of 150F(that leaves lots of room for error) and forget about shrimp and such. (Humans are good at making errors)

Let me explain, a healthy monitor will consume ANYTHING. Your task is to allow your monitor healthy conditions, period. Once you do that, you can feed it mice, insects, crayfish, or nearly any whole prey item without worry.

ITs FAR MORE IMPORTANT, that you have a readily available food source, then a particular type of food. That is, your far better off feeding mice if they are easy for you to obtain, then finding shrimp or crayfish. Of course, do not be a bonehead(like so many here) You can feed mice as a daily food item and feed fish or shrimp or crayfish, as they become available(seasonal).

But again, ITS NOT THE STINKING PREY ITEM thats important, its the conditions the monitor is in. In halfway decent conditions, a dums will try to consume your face, or anything that moves. Thats what monitors DO. THEY EAT and they eat anything(nearly) If your individual is picky, its not because of a prey preference, its because of poor health/poor conditions. Cheers

you have produced. Thanks Ian

Ben
Lets see your lil beauties!!
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

Hi Ian, Somehow I think you are going in a very foolish direction. But oh well, many do.

First, I have not produced them. But then this converstion is not about producing them. Its about FEEDING THEM and that I have done.

Some years back, I recieved some CH dums from RSG. And I raised them to adulthood, unfortunately, they turned out males. During that time, I learned I would rather get poked in the eye, then keep dums(no offense, just personal preference) So I dropped that project.

So heres two males, who were actually mock copulating, as adults raised totally on mice. They grew quickly and strong. So cheers and have a good day.

Thanks Ian

Funny, I have the reverse problem, nothing but females and I very much enjoy keeping dumerilii.
Cheers,
Ben

Thats the great thing about varanids, theres a bunch of types to suit our likes.

It really has nothing to do with anything more then personal likes. I like normal built women, I have always liked that. My best friend likes thin bony stick girls. YUCK bones clacking, no thanks. You know, the ones you feel like hooking them up with a bottle of ringers lactate. Hes still my best friend. Cheers

Fat chicks rule!!
The keep you warm in the winter and shaddy in the summer!
The're like mopeds, fun to ride but you don't want your friends to see you on one!
Plus the're easy to catch.
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

I don't post the comments about crayfish and shrimp to start arguments.
I agree that a solid whole bodied prey source that is readily availble is more important then the type of prey. However, my PERSONAL experience raising dums to generations is that shellfish is preferable to mice for this species.Shrimp and crayfish are whole bodied prey items that are available year round (Nov-July in LA and April-sept in Ca)and are less than half the price of mice ( aprox $10 a lb for mice vs $2-5 a lb for crayfish).
I agree that it is all about the conditions, not the particular prey, feed whatever floats your boat, no need to argue.
My dums will indeed eat your face if you present it, but its much more fun to watch them tear into a crayfish!
My dumerilii do not use basking sites that hot, usually chosing to bask around 120F, even when temps of 150 are available.
Some pics.



Cheers,
Ben

Ben
They sure are a handsome bunch!
Two seperate clutches there, real nice!
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

It's too bad they lose all the pretty color as they age. Congrats on the babies.

Quig

Quig
While I agree with you, the 2 adults doing the "broke back mountain mounting" in FR photos look pretty nice!
Mike
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Mike's Monitors!

LOL Mike, they DO look pretty good for fags . All kidding aside, yes the adults are gorgeous in their own right. I'm just partial to all that bright on the young'ns.

Quig

Dumerils are still beautiful when adults. They just aren't orange.
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Ed

The problem is not with you Ben, you know what your doing. But that cannot be said for the person with problems.

I recomend 150F, because that eliminates room for error. I often use much less, but then, I know what I am doing as well.

The point of giving advice to those without proven expertise, is to give them MORE the whats actually needed. And if that more does not cause harm. Then who cares if the monitors use it or only use it rarely. Cheers

"The problem is not with you Ben, you know what your doing."

Hahaha...Well, I wouldn't go that far, but I'm having fun!
Agreed about the temps, just thought I'd throw out what my experience has been with this species.
Cheers,
Ben

i know what Frank is saying, and i posted the same type of argument down the page (to this same member), regarding the whole varied diet thing. it is a subtle, yet important, point.

Ben can definitely feed shellfish to his Dum's. terrific success, and i support that 100%.

but Ben doesn't post on the forum asking if he can feed shellfish : )

the folks that do post with that question get stuck, as FR said, on just the thought of the varied diet. they get finely focused on the shrimp part, and miss the overall husbandry part.

this keeper has been worried about diet for three weeks now (at least between posts on this forum) when what REALLY needs to happen (NOW!) is to get husbandry correct, before that is yet another dead Dum.

feed a simple, nutritious, readily available diet, and establish a base. once you are an experienced keeper, once you have monitors thriving on that standard, with terrific overall husbandry, you can work with other food items. once you are actually ready to expand your husbandry skills, you probably won't have to ask the question.

in this instance, the lack of proper husbandry is the "diet issue" not the diet itself. the shrimp aspect is completely irrelevant given the conditions stated. this keeper needs to be thinking about a proper setup, not where to buy shellfish.

on a side note, those pics of Dum eggs hatching are some of the most perfect reptile pics ever. i don't think there is a more gorgeous baby monitor.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Thanks Robyn, I'll tell Michaela you liked her pic, pretty much any decent photo I post you can be assured I didn't take it.
I agree 100% with the overall husbandry aspect but disagree with a few of the points you are making.
First off, I don't consider what I do to be a "varied" diet, not even close, I feed shellfish about 80% of the time, if 80% of your meals were say, hamburger would you consider your diet "varied"?
Shellfish are a nutritious, readily availabe food source, and are no harder to start using as a base than mice.Not to mention the fact that they are much cheaper than mice and quicker/easier to thaw.
Again, I agree that this poster's basic husbandry is the problem, not diet,-and again, not trying to start an argument-but calling what I do "varied" or "Shotgunning"(would you load a shotgun shell with 5-6 bb's?) misses the point. The pic of the babies hatching isn't a side note, it's the result of my husbandry AND diet.
Cheers,
Ben

I don't think Robyn is calling your diet a varied diet, hes stating what we HEAR all the time from beginers, They seem to be under the assumption that a varied diet is NEEDED to keep a monitor healthy. Where they get this I do not know. But they do.

Its our task as successful experienced keepers to express what has worked for us. Just like you have done with your dums.

A base diet of whole prey, seems to be the actual key to success, whether its shellfish, or rodents or birds or insects. I am sure there is a difference, but that difference is not in the context of this thread. You know, great, better, best, etc, is different from a picky monitor(worst, poor, unhealthy)

As I have mentioned until I am blue in the face, I have obtained superior results with a mouse/cricket combination, with many many species. I never said its the best diet, only that is has expressed superior results in our captive context.

I will feed anything that blows my and my monitors skirt up, when the oppertunity arises. For instance, Everyone raises ackies on crickets, pinks/fuzzies, roaches, etc. Yet, they perfer other lizards and scorpions, over whats used most commonly. Ackies simply go bonkers over scorpions.

Yet the point of this thread is not about mice vs. shellfish or scorpions. Its about proper husbandry. And that has still not been addressed.

With most reptiles, the range of prey items becomes restricted with poor conditions. That is, the poorer the conditions, the pickier they get, until they stop feeding altogether. Its far more important to attain a degree of conditions and health, that will allow the given species or individual to readily consume it full range of preferences. Then you the keeper can decide what you "feel" or "choose" to feed to support the results your looking for.

To address a picky indiviudual by giving it the only food item it will consume and not addressing the husbandry issues that cause it to be picky, sir that is WRONG.

Yet again, for some reason, these threads boil down to A vs. B, which makes us, experienced keepers, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm not all that smart.

You, Robyn and I, all have agreed its husbandry issues and not the actual prey type, thats the problem, yet all thats being discussed is prey type. So Ben, whats wrong with his husbandry, let the thread go in that direction. Maybe a simple question like, why is that individual dum, so picky?????? Cheers

the funny thing is, as we sit and type out all this blah blah blah about diet and husbandry, we are basically preaching to the choir. for the most part this is just a small circle conversation between experienced keepers, and i give it a week before someone makes a new post about "monitor won't eat" or "where can i buy walrus skin to feed my Argus" : )

or worse, that post happens not a week from now, but later today : )
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

hahahahaha, walrus skin. that was a good one.

This paragraph is right on.
in this instance, the lack of proper husbandry is the "diet issue" not the diet itself. the shrimp aspect is completely irrelevant given the conditions stated. this keeper needs to be thinking about a proper setup, not where to buy shellfish.

Well said Robyn

yep. give 'em a big enclosure with the ability to burrow, hide, and feel secure. give 'em a good amount of humidity and the temps that they need.

excellent post.

How do you know what those things are. You know, what you mentioned. How do you know whats the best temps or hiding or burrowing? People ask other keepers what is best, but we other keepers are not the ones living in those conditions.

You only know what is best, by looking at the monitor. You only know what is "right" by the progress of the INDIVIDUAL monitor. Not by what someone says on the internet. The keeper has to judge the conditions by what the monitor expresses. If a monitor is picky, thats telling you, something is not right. No matter what others say or what they tell is good. It can only be confirmed by the monitor. Cheers

well, that was my point, however unclear it was. by giving your monitor the options to do what it wants to do rather than trying to make it do what you want it to do, you can watch it's reactions and behavior and adjust accordingly to the needs the animal itself is telling you.

i've heard many people saying that they rarely see their monitors outside of burrows, but my blackthroat and flavi are both extremely active. yes, they have burrows. yes, they sleep in their burrows. but they tend to spend most of their days basking, eating, sometimes swimming, digging, hunting...overall very active and not at all shy. my rudi, on the other hand, is extremely shy and reclusive. the most activity i see out of that thing is when food is put in the cage.

i mentioned i was looking for getting crayfish for my monitors. this isn't to provide the "varied diet technique" for my monitors. it's basically because i understand that it might save a bit of money and since it's still whole prey, then why not look into it?

The context of this thread was about the first posters comment on how picky is dums was. He stated, it would not eat this or that, or the other. Those would all normal food items for a healthy dums.

You on the otherhand state, you have healthy monitors. In your case, your perfectly welcome to test food types and compare them with your already successful results.

On a side note, mice has proven thru repeated result to be a superior sole prey item. That is, even with dums, I have had SUPERIOR results. In the case of dums, I raised those two individuals to large healthy adult size in under a year, from hatchlings. I ask, has been done that with shellfish. You see, you can compare success to success and have one out shine the other.

The SAD fact is, after all these years of having superior success with monitors(18yrs for me)(superior success is having not problems raising any manner of specie to adults and reproduction thru generations) This board and even some of those who should be experts, CAN ONLY THINK IS FAILURE VS. SUCCESS. As intelligent beings(a very questionable statement) failure should have been iliminated a very long time ago. Cheers

I doubt that your comments were aimed at me Frank,but I strongly disagree that mice are a superior food source over shellfish for dumerilii.Yes you can raise dums to strong healthy maturity in a year on shellfish, I'd put my dums up agaist any raised on mice any day of the week.Mice are a fine food source, no question and dums can certainly be raised on them and do well, but untill you have compared the real life first hand results of a shellfish diet over mice, you havn't got a leg to stand on. You will never be able to convince me that mice are better for dums than shellfish, because I have seen the results for myself.
Here is a pic of a 9 month old dum, raised on shellfish.
At the time of this pic she had already dropped a clutch of eggs.
Cheers

Not to argue, as you would say, but I did not say mice were superior, I said I recieved superior results.

I also mentioned that its said that we argue superior results vs. Superior results, Particularly when most have their poor monitors dying from poor husbandry. I do find that odd.

In context, Either shellfish for dums or mice for dums would result in superior results. So I have to wonder, whats your problem?????? Why not help with basic husbandry instead of worrying about mice vs. shellfish? Cheers

No problem Frank, just discussion, keep your top on
you said-

"On a side note, mice has proven thru repeated result to be a superior sole prey item. That is, even with dums, I have had SUPERIOR results. In the case of dums, I raised those two individuals to large healthy adult size in under a year, from hatchlings. I ask, has been done that with shellfish. You see, you can compare success to success and have one out shine the other."

and I responded, no problem eh?
I agree that one out shines the other.

I mentioned several times in my earlier posts that we agreed about the basic husbandry and I posted info to help the original poster ( jeez I feel like a lawyer all of a sudden)
so I was under the impression that we WERE discussing mice vs shellfish as you kept bringing it back up.
I too find it odd that so many have their poor monitors dying from poor husbandry but would be willing to bet that you and I disagree about why that is.Something tells me that would be a better discussion over beers than on this forum.
Cheers,
Ben

Well call it a meeting of the minds. It will take place this summer in indianapolis we can have it at my place on the lake. Ben you are already planning a trip to these parts Mike you dont live but 4 hours away. I can call some of my zookeeper friends to come by. Frank Ill buy you a ticket to come this way. Well all sit down and shoot the [bleep] in person, at Ians place. Whos up for it. Good idea Ben beers a good ice breaker. Just let me know guys. Thanks Ian

if your lizard is constantly soaking and deficating in the water, that's a sign of dehydration. in your case, brought on by low humidity. i'd suggest covering up most of the top of your cage until you can get an enclosed one and giving your lizard a moist (but not wet) substrate that can hold burrows. as the other guy said in this thread, basking temps of 130º F or possibly even hotter. and all the way down to 70º F. don't give up, they're great animals to work with! just tweak your husbandry a bit and you'll see a huge change in your monitor.

i got him eating, unfortunately its live crayfish and hard boiled egg. i know its not the healthiest foods, but its something, and ill attempt mice again after i get him fat again. as for the soaking. hes not deficating, and he does soak, but normal. he will go and drink, then go back and walk around and such. im buying a glass cover for my 75 gallon i got him in right now as a tyemporary thing until i get him a true 100% settled enclosure, which im building now.

You can do without the egg but crayfish and shrip are a better diet then mice. Take bens advice He is one of the few to have bred these guys. Not the advice of someone who herd from someone who herd from some ausie gooroo that you can raise amd breed them just like and ackie. As for the glass top go to lowes and have them cut out a piece of plexiglass for you. Have a good one. Ian

potshots are always amusing. sort of.

but not always in a ha ha way...
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

You guys are sort of funny. I wonder why you say what you say.

I do not keep dums like ozzie monitors or ackies. I keep all monitors like monitors. After all, THEY ALL ARE MONITORS, its kinda like keeping colubrids like colubrids and torts like torts. Or turtles like turtles. Heck, I breed all of those.

Funny thing is, all those are very similar. So its more like keeping reptiles like reptiles.

The point is, In the last many years, I have actually kept many many species. Odd as it sounds, I am JUST LIKE YOU FELLAS, After keeping many many species, I have found that I like some species and do not care to keep others. I guess that has something to do with my childhood experiences and maybe even a pic that impressed me as a naive youth.

I for some reason learned that monitors do not care about country borders, so calling them ozzie or indo or african is STUPID. So if you all are doing that, then the shoe fits. They all are indeed varanids.

Also there is more to it. If all things are equal, that is, if keeping an indicus is as rewarding as keeping a gouldi, then I have to keep the gouldi. The reason is simple. I have a facility to support. You know, a building that requires electricity and water. Its not much, oh about $500 a month or so. The building is already paid for(ackies and kims)

The problem is, any species thats cheaply imported, cannot pay the bills to KEEP THE DOORS OPEN on my facility. Its not about profit, these days, I only produce enough to pay the bills on the building.

But I guess I cannot expect folks with NO experience and or having some sort of personal problems to understand the realities of life. Oh well.

As I mentioned, the thread is STUPID, as you are concerned about what is BETTER, shellfish or mice. When BOTH are superior and supported superior results. The concern is, what is dependable and easy to use for those that are new at keeping and are not getting superior results.

With that in mind, these posts are indeed bordering of extreme stupidity. Get it, lets argue whats more fun to drive, a ferrari or a porsche. While I am sure we will get folks lined to to argue on is more fun then the other, The vast majority are driving Yugos or a fit. So those making opinions based on no real experience have opinions just like most opinions. And we all know about most opinions. Cheers

as long as it's the entire crayfish, that particular food item is extremely healthy for the animal. no worse than rodents. the only thing that sucks about crayfish is they tend to be seasonal and can be quite expensive...depending on where you live.

the local outdoorsman store used to sell crayfish for only like fifty cents a pop which was AWESOME....then they completely stopped selling them, and it made me a sad panda.

Thats what I just did. 20 pounds is alot of crayfish. Thanks Ian

do you know where i can get crayfish readily in riverside california? i've looked everywhere and come up with nothing.

not that rodents and bugs aren't working, but if i can find something that would save a bit of money, then i wouldn't mind switching to crayfish and rodents.

Sometimes you can get whole raw shrimp at grocery or seafood store.
Where he may be "under the weather" I would de-shell them for him for now, otherwise, when in perfect health, shell and all is fine.
Shrimp / crayfish should not make up total diet, it goes without saying.
What size cage / encloser is he in?

Why should shrimp and crayfish not be the main diet?
Why does this go without saying?
What experience are you basing that statement on?
Ben

I read this thread all the way through, but rather than make it longer and even less relevant to the original question I think I should start a new one.
daniel
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Mampam Conservation