Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Last season, two of my long term captive w/c females laid nice clutches of eggs. They were perfectly healthy pastel clutches, but each clutch had 2 ticks on them. These animals had been treated inside and out for parasites.

So my question- do I need to retreat and how do you treat INTERNALLY for ticks? Where are these ticks hiding and how do I get rid of them (if there are any left)??

The animals are the best feeders and healthiest animals I own!

Steve Harrison
Jacksonville, FL

Wildcaughts can come in with tiny, almost undetectable "seed ticks". These can take a long time to become big enough to be "obvious", and are VERY well camouflaged among the snake's scales. This particular species of tick reproduces by climbing from a female to her egg clutch in order to lay eggs herself-these tiny newborn ticks will hatch and infest the new baby pythons as they themselves emerge from their eggs.

I would think a good shot of ivermectin would kill any remaining ticks on the adult balls...
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Not only were all externals gone, but these were pretty good-sized ticks, and there are none on my animals now.

How can they live internally?

Steve

I think bhraco answered your questions. Ticks are external parasites not internal. You could have easily missed some tiny ticks and they grew. The only other explaination i can think of would be they came from another snake.

Ticks don't live internally at all.

Ticks, however, do migrate and only have one stage of their many stage life cycle when they actually bite and feed off snakes. They could have migrated and laid eggs in the incubator from last year...when it was nice and warm, they hatched and moved to the eggs, were in the incubation medium etc. before you noticed them on the eggs themselves.

It may be necessary to remove all snakes form the snake room, treat them individually and their cages, then the room as well, then repeat again in a month for a few months. I don't think its safe at all, to treat the eggs themselves. Maybe carefully dab vasoline on the ticks you see on the eggs... can kill them without harming the eggs...if the eggs are just covered with mites...then leave them and treat all your animals once the hatchlings have eaten a few times...
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PHLdyPayne

I'll triple check, but my animals are tick free and have not been around other animals that have ticks.

These ticks came out with the eggs. And, like I said, this was last year. Mites are an entirely different parasite and were not brought up in my post. They should not have been brought up here.

I would appreciate if people who have bred a wild caught female respond that have had this happen, not just general "this is what I know" responses.

I've been breeding balls for 7 years and have been around these forums for years, so you're not speaking to a novice!

Steve Harrison
J-ville

Don't want to be disrespectful, but what you are describing is impossible. Ticks are air-breathing arthropods (related to spiders)-they could not survive within your python's reproductive system. Nor is there any mechanism by which they could have entered in the first place. It just can't happen.

Now balance against the above the fact that the observation you describe is VERY consistent with the known behaviour of the common tick found on wild-caught ball pythons. I'd refer you to the Barker's book for a full explanation of the tick's life cycle. The tiny ticks that came in with your pythons merely were too small to be noticed, and as they grew were so well camoflaged that they escaped later discovery. But they are very hard to miss on a bunch of white eggs! I realize your pythons may have been treated for external parasites, but ticks are tougher than mites, and often survive a treatment that would have killed off an ordinary mite problem...I've had the exact thing happen to me a couple of times, and the explanation is simple.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

n/p

No post
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Steve,

Ticks are external ONLY parasites.
You may have treated the animals for ticks.....however some survived.
( I do not treat gravid snakes for ticks or mites...this treatment should postponed until after your snake lays it eggs.)

I doubt that they were in your incubator.

These adult ticks were hiding on your snake. "SURVIVORS".

When your female ball python lays her clutch of eggs, the adult ticks ( both males and females) sense the pheremone cues.

They instinctivly migrate toward the ball python's cloaca.

Then (if the tick have not already bred) they will migrate to the eggs....breed and/or lay their tick eggs on your ball python eggs.

The Adult ticks migrate back to the female after the eggs are laid.

The tick eggs ( on your ball python eggs) will hatch shortly before the ball python eggs hatch.

Now, the baby ticks will move to your baby ball pythons and start the whole life cycle anew.

I have recently taken video clips of the ticks that migrated onto eggs during ovoposition. Then we collected the female ticks.
I placed the tick into a small container and placed it into the incubator next to the eggs. The tick laid her eggs shortly thereafter....inside of the tiny container.
Then, I gave them to a friend who is a Professor at MSC.
(Dr. Gary McCallister.) He is an entomologist and parasitologist. They are taking scanning electron micrographs of the tick and her eggs. Then they preserve the adult tick...and we incubate the tick eggs.
Eventually we will also photograph the hatchling ticks and they will also then be preserved. Fun and interesting stuff.

So now you know about the tick on your eggs.
DO NOT TREAT AGAINST THE TICKS OR EGGS in the presence of your incubating ball python eggs.
Just wait until the snakes hatch and then treat them after they have had a chance to grow a little.
You can treat the adult female ball python after removing her from the clutch.
I hope that information is helpful.
Good luck.
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

Really interesting stuff-and cool the way you're documenting the life cycle. Parasites are actually some of the most fascinating creatures on earth in the remarkable subtlety and complexity of their coevolution with their hosts.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

WOW!
Hey Brad,
Cool to know that I am not alone in the fascination with parasites.
Sure is interesting how every species finds a nitch to exploit/inhabit...and how neatly it all fits together.
Take care buddy.

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

I am one of your many fans. Great info. You are the man.
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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Hey Thanks Kyle!

How is that AWESOME male Sugar you got from the Sutherlands doing?

That is an impressive animal!

I had the opportunity to visit Dan and Colette this winter.
It was fun to see their set up.... and a few snakes too!!!

I enjoyed meeting them both in person.... a nice visit.
They sure do have some great looking animals.

I see your website is coming right along. Looking good.
Give me a call anytime.

Take care.

Your friend,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

Harlin,

Great to hear from you. The Sugar is doing nicely. I am glad you like him. I will let you know if he fathers any eggs this year.

Yes TSK has great animals and I am sure they made your visit very enjoyable.

You noticed the changes on the website! Excellent! I need to add alot more photos.

Lets talk soon. I am sure your breeding season is right on track. Best of luck with your season.

Kyle

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Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid" David Coverdale

Many people have had it happen, and nobody has really come up with an explanation on how or why it happens. Some instances could be contributed to the fact that they "could" be harboring ticks, others well, are still unexplained. It may be that hatchling ticks could lie dormant and switch on whenever they are triggered, or the eggs themselves could go dormant. I do know some of these animals had been in captivity at least a year, and had gone through external parasite treatments with no re-infestation

We have it happen all the time with gravid w.c balls. You get rid of all the visable ticks, they lay their eggs then ....ticks on the egg.

Not sure what they are but all the breeders who also import I have talked to call them reproductive ticks. You never see them until the eggs are laid.

Once the ticks leave the female for the eggs you will never see another tick on her.

Weird but it happens.
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J&J REPTILES
www.jnjreptiles.com
sales@jnjreptiles.com
(207)479-6658

And the reason you won't see another tick on the adult ball is that the ticks put "all their eggs in one basket" by passing on to the newborn balls....This also allows the ticks to spread to new areas with the dispersing juveniles.....
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

So are you all saying that I SHOULD NOT have to treat again, or are they still around? There is NO sign of externals on either animal, and it's been over a year!

I realize this is one of those "don't ask, don't tell" topics (because NO ONE has ever had parasites-hee hee!), but I want to know for a future buyer of one of my proven breeders! Misleading him would be the last thing I'd want to do!

Steve

I'd inform him of what happened, but as others have said, there should be no further problem-the little buggers have completed their life cycle and you should be done!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Hey Steve,
The information posted by both Brad and J & J fairly correct.
And Brad gave a great reference to the Barker's book.
We merely decided to carry it one step further, by incubation the tick eggs.

If you remove the tick from the ball python when she is laying her eggs....perhaps you will never see another tick on her.
But, if she remains with the eggs...the adult ticks will migrate back to the adult female ball python.
And they will wait to lay their eggs again the next time your female ball python lays eggs.
Thats how they doos it. LOL.

Take care,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

OK, here's my scenario!

Both animals were WC, but one was LTC for years and treated for ticks and apparently had no ticks. The other was a rescue that I rehabbed for a few months, then fed well for 2 years, and later attempted to breed- which she did. Both animals were treated for parasites inside and out, all ticks removed completely, and I can spot those suckers pretty well. Let's assume I missed some tinys!

I watched the animals lay, and took them off the eggs within a few hours of laying. The ticks were found directly on the eggs and removed immediately. The animals were scoured head to toe for ticks and none were found.

My question then is- considering the scenario...

1. Do I have to treat the females again? They currently have no visible ticks

Thanks,

Steve

Hey Steve,

I am sure you are GREAT at spotting ticks.
(but they are easy to miss, even though they are usually fairly easy to see.)

The tick that I obtained this year, came from a captive hatched import which was raised to adulthood in captivity by Al Zulich.
I purchased this animal from him as an adult.

Unfortunatly, it also came to me with mites!
I looked it over for ticks...and I did not see any.
(I am pretty good at finding ticks too.)
I treated the animal externally for parasites. (P-A-M)
(I should have used Black KnightII!!!)
And kept it quarantined.

There were no longer any mites...and I found no ticks either.

Later, I paired the snake up for breeding with a captive bred male. (A male I hatched and raised.)
Apon ovoposition, I found a tick crawling from the adult female snake to the snake eggs.
Somehow, (unbelievably) there was a single survivor tick!

I do not know if ticks are capable of sperm storage.
I did not see any male ticks...which are usually less than half the size of a female tick.
Often (with import gravid females) you can see male and female ticks breeding and laying their eggs on the ball python eggs.
But in this case, I only found a single engorged female tick.
Perhaps the tick eggs will be infertile? Perhaps they will hatch? Time will tell.

I think you should be able to safely treat your female again for tick. If I might suggest, try some Black KnightII!
It really works wonders!!!
I prefer using Black KnightII over Ivermectin...or P-A-M.
( I understand that your snake has already laid eggs) however...
While Ivermectin is effective....if you use it on a female that is cycling it could impair folicular development.
Also, Ivermectin is usually less effective if used topically.
(not an advertisement)
But, Black KnightII works GREAT topically!
Give it a try.

I am glad that you shared your experience with us.
It has been a fun and interesting topic.

If you are concerned that the ticks may have laid eggs on your snake eggs.
Wait until the snakes have hatched and the neonates (snakes) have a little size on them before treating them.

I have also noticed this tick life cycle with import Reticulated Pythons. (Likely it is the normal life cycle for most ticks which infest snakes.)
Best of luck!

Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

Someone may have mentioned it, I didn't read them all. Ticks CAN live "internally" despite what others have said. Yes, they are strictly external parasites, but remember that both the male and female (to an lesser degree) EXTERNAL genitals are infolded into the body cavity. The inside of the cloaca is an area where ticks can and do live. Other such cavities, as you know, include the heat pits. So yeah, you very well can have a tick just inside the cloaca, totally hidden from view...

Technically....you are still talking EXTERNAL.

Internal would mean that you could potentially find ticks feeding on a snake's liver, kidneys, heart.... or flowing in the snakes circulatory system!

That will NOT happen.

Inside the heat pits....or fovea, and at the opening of the cloaca is still EXTERNAL.

Ticks are related to spiders. They have book lungs.
"gill like" structures...but NOT GILLS.
Mites and Ticks need oxygen to survive...and they cannot survive when submerged in liquid.

This is why soapy water is sometimes useful to help eliminate mites or ticks.
The soap releases the surface tension of the water and allows it to suffocate the tick or mite.

I hope that all makes sense.

Thanks.
Your friend,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

Or at least, that what I tried to say. I didn't think my post was too terribly confusing. My point was, he said the animals were 100% clean on the outside...and I was pointing out that the little buggers could, and likely were, hiding out just inside the cloaca...Thus his feeling that there were not ticks on the outside, but yet they showed up with the eggs...

anything not 'outside' the body! If they can live 'inside' the cloaca, then they ARE inside, NOT outside! Also, they cannot be treated as such!, so Black Knight would be useless.

That being said, what does one do for these 'internal' ticks?

Steve

Since they can't retreat very far into the opening-since they must breathe air-then black knight should kill them just fine (assuming they are susceptable to that product in the first place. Ticks can be tough!)...
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

inside, meaning an inch or so in?

hmmmmmm

I do not want it to sound like we are beating a dead horse here...

THERE ARE NO INTERNAL TICKS.

They do not live INSIDE of the cloaca.
You might lift the cloacal scute and see a tick (external) attached to the soft "external lining" of the cloaca.
You will not find them inside of the hemipenes...nor inside the scent ducts....nor INSIDE of the cloaca.

The ticks need oxygen to survive.
You merely missed a small tick or two. It happens.

Black Knight is very effective against ticks and mites alike.
Brad is right...ticks do seem a little tougher than mites.
But Black Knight II will knock em out...DEAD!
You will be TICK FREE!

Just to sum things up...
There are no internal TICKS! Not an inch inside the cloaca...not 2cm inside the cloaca...they are EXTERNAL parasites.

Steve, you are more than welcome to call me if you have any questions about this subject. I could even put you in touch with a world renouned parasitologist, if you need.
He will let you know...Ticks are EXTERNAL parasites.
And he will also let you know that ticks do not live inside of the cloaca. (Regardless of anything else you may hear.)

The other gentleman who posted about the ticks being internal, was suggesting that you might need to inspect the areas of the heat pits and the opening of the cloaca a little closer next time...because these are common places for ticks to hide.
Although he said internally....I think he meant... at the external opening of the cloaca...under the cloacal scute.

Hope that puts this subject to rest.
Take care.
Your freind,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

NO...not an inch or so. By "just inside", I mean just BARELY inside. Like a good firm popping motion would probably expose them. As Harlin says, they're strictly external. I think a decent analogy would be like the inside of your nostrils. Still external tissues, but obscured from view unless you really look around in there....

Open discussion, courteous discourse...

~np!