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OK, I can tell the snake here is OBVIOUSLY different from a normal arabesque boa: http://www.kingsnake.com/boamorphs/sunburst.htm . That's an awesome animal, and a "no brainer."

However, I'm seeing a lot of "sunburst Arabesque" boas being sold that look like nothing more than an arabesque with a little extra yellow. Some of these are still heavily speckled.

My question is: what is the defining difference between a sunburst arabesque and a regular arabesque? I know that sunbursts are supposedly brighter and lighter, but that is kinda vague and arbitrary. How do you look at an arabesque and decide which ones to call a sunburst and which ones to not call a sunburst? Where is the line? Help!

For example, the one in the below images was not necessarily a sunburst, but it came from breeder that produces lots of sunbursts. Now, I see LOTS of "sunbursts" that are less like a sunburst than this one. Soooo, how do you tell?

Thanks in advance for your help!
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net
KJUN Firearms

Here....

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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net
KJUN Firearms

Horrible image, but is shows the color well.

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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net
KJUN Firearms

THANKS!
KJ

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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net
KJUN Firearms

some are definitely different looking than the rest but i think it is something unproven and likely just natural variation. I could be wrong, arabesques seem to throw all sorts of different colored offspring. I have no personal experience with that gene myself though. i am just practicing my typing

my understanding was that the original sunburst came from crossing an arab with the orange crush line. i suppose a nice light arab could be marketed as a "pastel" arab, but unless it comes from the combination arab/orange crush, is it ever a sunburst?
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uncommonboa.com

oops...not orange crush, but i think it was the sunkist line?? going from memory, i could still be wrong....
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uncommonboa.com

Here's a link to a breeder female arabesque of Steve Hammond's.
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.php?photo=291429

As I recall he said they were the offspring of an arabesque X brightly colored columbian. I don't know if that would support the "Orange Crush" background or not, I have seen the name but am not certain about them. My memory isn't always to be trusted, either. I saved an email from Hammond detailing sunbursts, I can check and see what it says tonight.

Attached is a recent picture of a sunburst that I got from him about a year ago. Like other columbians, the color should start coming in strongly soon. Remember -- the quality of the snake exceeds the quality of the photograph!

Andy

according to the write-up, there was a non-arabesque line that steve called "sunburst", so forget the "sunkist" reference, i guess i was remembering wrong...pretty animals btw
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uncommonboa.com

mpollard/viandy:

Thanks for your input. The history is an easy thing. The first ones was created, SUPPOSEDLY, bu breeding "an Arabesque to a descendant of the original Sunburst Colombian Boa." That's in the link in my original post. Obviously, not all of the offspring from that line are brightly colored enough to be a sunburst arabesque. More specifically, if you had a clutch from that line, WHAT CHARACTERISTICS would you use to put some of them one the "arabesque" side of the table and what characteristics would you use to put others on the "sunburst arabesque" side of the table. If there isn't something people can use to make the subdivision, then I can't see how this differs from just another old marketting ploy to try and make something seem "more different" than it really is. That's just my opinion.

I am NOT referring to any specific ad currently on of off kingsnake.com, so this post has no reason to get deleted. I am not even quoting any specific ad. I will say that I have seen some that don't seem very colorful or very lacking of speckleds being marketted as sunbursts. Let's say someone got those animals and openned the box. How would they know the difference between a bright arabesque or a sunburst arabesque? Is there a difference? Is there something to prevent people from calling ANY bright arabesque a sunburst? If so, what is that difference in black and white? That's all I'm trying to find out.

As far as the idea that sunburst arabesques HAVE to result from that specific line, I don't completely buy it because (1) not all from that line look any different at all from regular sunbursts and (2) that would mean that an identical looking arabesque of another lineage - or the same lineage but that is unknown to the owner - with the EXACT same look would have to be given a new name. I personally believe both of those conditions indicate that sunburst arabesques are named by looks and nothing else.....so what are those looks?

Even if they are from the same sunburst x arabesque breeding, no all are "sunburst arabesques." Is this more than a name to distinguish the best from the worst and everything else in-between is called a sunburst by the breeder if it makes them an extra dollar???? ....or is there that difference I'm looking for?

Sorry to repeat myself so many times, but I really want it clear what I'm asking. I don't care about the history or how hard these are to produce. I'm asking what makes sibling #1 a sunburst arabesque and what makes similarly looking sibling #2 a regular arabesque. To the best of my knowledge, "sunburst" is a selectively bred trait and NOT a Mendelian-style gene. In other words, it isn't simple recessive, dominant, codominant, incompletely dominant, etc. It is a non-Medelian selectivelt bred trait. If anyone else has more information that sunbrust is an on/off thing, please provide the data because that isn't what I've been reading elsewhere!

Thanks for everyone's time!
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net
KJUN Firearms

The Sunburst Arabesque is about color pretty pink and orange base color.It's supposed to lighten up the saddles and clean the boa up alittle.Its really about a line of colorful Arabs produced first by Steve Hammond through selective breeding.
We are seeing Pastel Boas influence Arabesque Boas to a great extent now.Sunburst Arabesque in my opinion(Just Opinion)are just a form of Pastel type qualities that were bred into the Arabesque to obtain a higher colored Arab Boa. Lar M
Boas By Klevitz

>>The Sunburst Arabesque is about color pretty pink and orange base color.It's supposed to lighten up the saddles and clean the boa up alittle.Its really about a line of colorful Arabs produced first by Steve Hammond through selective breeding.
>> We are seeing Pastel Boas influence Arabesque Boas to a great extent now.Sunburst Arabesque in my opinion(Just Opinion)are just a form of Pastel type qualities that were bred into the Arabesque to obtain a higher colored Arab Boa. Lar M
>>Boas By Klevitz

If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that anything BRIGHTER/CLEANER than normal is BASICALLY a "sunburst arabesque." Some would be BETTER examples of that morph than others - like in pastel boas - and it is up to the buyer/seller to realize that some sunbursts are going to be "tens" and some are going to be "fives" - with prices accordingly?

If that is roughly what you are saying, then I understand. That has been my thoughts on this matter from the start. I'm just not enough of a boa guy to be sure. It seems to be what I am seeing. Like with pastels, some are awesome, obvious, animals. Some are "crappy" looking that I wouldn't personally call a pastel boa at all. Sunbursts seem to me to follow those same rules. I believe that is what you were saying.

Am I correct? ...and THANK YOU for your input.
KJ
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KJUN Snakehaven
Pituophis.net
KJUN Firearms

Right that's what I'm saying partially. The only stop is that it must come from the Sunburst line. Other wise its just a colorful or Pastel Arab Boa. Just Like you can't call any Pastel Boa a Pastel Dream that is a certain line of special Pastel Boas that Jeff Ronne originated and created very Red colorful Albino Boas with.To date still no other Line creates quite so much color and predictble color but thats another subject.So back to my point Sunburst Boas must have light Red orange color and come from Hammond line.People do lie about such info.Its up to the buyer to ask for paper work type verification. Hope I'm being clear here.Lar M
Boas By Klevitz

I agree with what is being said here, that:
"Sunburst Arabesque" is a term coined by Hammond for brightly colored Arabesques refined by selective breeding.
That term is PROPERLY only used for boas from this Hammond bloodline that exhibit the right colors, but even within the right bloodlines a subjective choice is still made, there are no absolute determining factors.

Given that, how well can these be chosen / named as neonates? Since the color does develop as the snake matures, can they be picked out with real certainty? I guess I'm siding with KJ at this point, there are points at which it seems like an almost nebulous term.
I am not saying that I can't be wrong in this. I do not mind being corrected, in fact I welcome more input.
Andy

Right,the Sunburst that Hammond produces are beautiful. I myself would rather selectively breed into a well known Pastel Line if I wanted to clean the Arab up and create color.I haven't looked into Sunburst Arabs myself for purchase. All I can say is "A person has to make up their own mind about some things". If that amkes sense about this subject.Lar M
Boas By Klevitz