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Hi there - So both of my veileds at 7months old died from renal failure - blood work and necropsy confirmed - I am a vet tech of 10 years and will be posting the bldwk and necrop after i pick them up from work tonite - So my question still remains open - Got both male veileds from expo last year - they were very little but with my experience in reptiles figured no problem - RIGHT - Wrong - I gut loaded by the boo - collards,flukers, greens, bee pollen, egg etc. - dusted weekly and multi vit monthly - humidity - no prob- i have a herp room - am and pm temps set - uva/uvb yes - pretty much i did what i did by the book or even better - the first male went quick - treated with sq fluids/feeding a/d and crickets and batryil tazicef - he passed after 1 week - now the second male 3 weeks later went even quicker - mind you i did blood on the second one 3 weeks ago and his bldwk was wnl - and no he is gone as well - I have enjoyed them as a hobby - they were fun - the constant upkeep found fulfilling - Needless to say i would like another but want to know if i was in the wrong anyway with husbandry or if this is common due to mass breeding

I'm sorry to hear that you lost your two chameleons at such a young age.

I'm not a vet but I have kept/raised/hatched chameleons for about 20 years now.

Questions...what does "wnl" mean??
Why was the baytril used?

Look at what you used to gutload/feed the insects and look at the supplements that you used for vitamin D3 and PREFORMED vitamin A. These are the two that are fat soluble and can build up in the system. I can't tell you exactly how much of each they need....but I can tell you what I do with my veileds and that my female veileds usually live to be 6 to 8 years old and the males live even longer. I have also heard of people giving too much of both which then seems to bypass MBD and results in renal failure.

Here's what I do...
I dust with Rep-Cal (phos.-free calcium) powder at almost every feeding (lightly) to help make up for the poor ratio of calcium to phos. found in most feeder insects.

I dust twice a month (lightly) with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A. (There is controversy as to whether all species of chameleon can convert beta carotene or not...but by using this I don't have to worry about overdosing the vitamin A while I ensure that they get all the other vitamins.) If the chameleon shows signs of hypOvitaminosis A, then a touch of prEformed vitamin A can be given by touching a bit from a vitamin A gel cap on an insect and feeding it to the chameleon. I'm sure you know this, but I will mention it anyhow...prEformed vitmain A can build up in the system. Excess prEformed vitamin A can prevent the D3 from doing its job. The two are antagonistic to each other.

Because my chameleons only get UVB from tube lights I also dust twice a month (lightly) with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder. I don't want the D3 (from supplements) to build up in the system, but I do want to ensure that the chameleon gets enough.

I feed the crickets a variety of greens (dandelion, kale, collards, curly endive, escarole, mustard greens, (once in a while) ROMAINE lettuce, etc.)and veggies (carrot, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, celery leaves, squash, zucchini, etc.). I use no commercial feeds.

I make sure that I maintain suitable basking temperatures to aid in digestion and I make sure that I water them well each day.

Imbalance in the prEformed A and D3 is only one reason for renal failure...chronic dehydration, exposure to toxins, etc....but I assume you are sure that its hypERvitaminosis?

Here are some articles that you might find interesting...
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421082042/www.chameleonjournals.com/vet/index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20060502074401/www.chameleonjournals.com/vet/index.php?show=5.Vitamin.A.html

Hope this helps!

Never mind wnl...within normal limits...just didn't hit me at first.

i hoped you would respond i have been reading your threads for months and have learned lots - Very impressive - Tazicef was first abix of choice - when he wasn't responding in 48h the vet and i decided he was either a gone or try a wide spectrum abix being baytril - his wbc count was 12 thousand slightly elevated and he becoming anemic from sq fluids - after giving baytril and b12 shot he had a remarkabkle turn around and ate and drank the next day but that was short lived - i follow the gut load you have recommended - hell i spend more time with crickets than anything - I was using Rep-Cal for dusting bu Nekton for multiviamin - Just aggrivated and stuck with the personal decision if i want to start over - thanks

You said..."i hoped you would respond i have been reading your threads for months and have learned lots - Very impressive"...thanks for the compliments...but I feel I have so much more to learn.

You said.."Tazicef was first abix of choice - when he wasn't responding in 48h the vet and i decided he was either a gone or try a wide spectrum abix being baytril - his wbc count was 12 thousand slightly elevated and he becoming anemic from sq fluids - after giving baytril and b12 shot he had a remarkabkle turn around and ate and drank the next day but that was short lived"...I don't really know what to say about this right now.

You said..."i follow the gut load you have recommended - hell i spend more time with crickets than anything"...you mentioned egg and bee pollen...which I don't use. Egg yolk should have prEformed vitamin A in it. (Not saying you shouldn't use these things but you will have to take it into consideration.)

You said..."I was using Rep-Cal for dusting bu Nekton for multiviamin"...I used to use Nekton years ago but had problems with MBD when I did. Of course, I did other things differently back then too, so I can't really put the blame on the Nekton with absolute certainty. If the formula hasn't changed, it has prEformed vitamin A in it and I'm pretty sure that there is D3 in it too.

You said.."Just aggrivated and stuck with the personal decision if i want to start over"...I understand.

There is lots to learn about keeping chameleons and many chameleon species have quite different requirements...although one can learn a lot from reading and skip a lot of the mistakes that might be made if one didn't do the reading, there is still a learning curve.

Will we refer this post to chameleon A - his necrop results faxed to me last night - He had an Intucesseption and with my previous knowledge of Intucesseptions all of his problems could have stemmed from this - He also was in severe renal failure from dehydration but before we sent him for necropsy he had been fighting for 2 weeks and was in horrible condition - chameleon B necrop results we also suprising to me - he had blunt trauma to his spine causing a spinal fracture - most likely fell in his cage - 2 totally different results that i was sure was hypervitaminosis but in deed was not - Both of their deaths were so close to one another yet so different - After a long night of no sleep i thank all of those who have replied but i will stick with my snakes for now - I have medically learned lots from this experience and maybe in the future will consider starting over - thanks

Sorry to hear that you won't be getting another chameleon for now.

Sorry to ask you these questions at the time of your loss..but I would like to learn from it.

You said chameleon A "had an Intucesseption and with my previous knowledge of Intucesseptions all of his problems could have stemmed from this - He also was in severe renal failure from dehydration but before we sent him for necropsy he had been fighting for 2 weeks and was in horrible condition"...in humans intussusception will result in dehydration..so in a chameleon I can understand why renal failure would have been the result. Was the blood flow cut as a result of the intussesception? If so, was there infection setting in? Was the chameleon pooping?

You said..."chameleon B necrop results we also suprising to me - he had blunt trauma to his spine causing a spinal fracture - most likely fell in his cage - 2 totally different results that i was sure was hypervitaminosis but in deed was not"...so there was no renal failure? Did the spinal fracture not result in mobility problems?

You said..."Both of their deaths were so close to one another yet so different - After a long night of no sleep i thank all of those who have replied but i will stick with my snakes for now - I have medically learned lots from this experience and maybe in the future will consider starting over - thanks"...it is quite a coincidence. Chameleons are addictive, so maybe you will try again one day.

I will appreciate any answers you can give me to my questions.