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Dave & Tracy Barker forwarded this on to me.

The politicians are clearly ramping up to take action.
I will note that once again the press has been spoonfed what
the govt wants to sell and has given the community no
opportunity to respond.

Please read this story and watch the video....
http://www.nbc6.net/news/15715572/detail.html

Edited on March 28, 2008 at 09:26:06 by jeffb.

Jeff,

They have "not given the community a chance to respond"? Who has not given the community a chance to respond? Who in the community is trying to respond? How are they trying to respond? Are people contacting media outlets trying to counter this and being ignored? Surely, the big commercial breeders and businesses could get some attention from placing ads and/or using their power, money and contacts to get our side out.

Can the herp community at large be doing anything to help besides joining PIJAC and commenting on the USFWS request for information? Is the community planning on doing anything or is everyone waiting for PIJAC?

The papers written by the Barker's should be released as press releases. Is that happening? Do we need to make it happen?

I have heard very little from the industry about what we are supposed to do about this. I am just wondering what I can do to help? I don't keep boas or pythons but I recognize that we all must band together and fight.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

>>Jeff,
>>
>>They have "not given the community a chance to respond"? Who >>>has not given the community a chance to respond?

The mainstream press

>Who in the community is trying to respond?

I know that I have tried to respond and have been ignored
as have others

>How are they trying >to respond? Are people contacting media >outlets trying to >counter this and being ignored?

Yes

>Surely, the big commercial breeders and businesses could get >some attention from placing ads and/or using their power, money >and contacts to get our side out.

Buying ad space won't allow us to counter negative media stories and all the money in the world can't counter bad press.

>>
>>Can the herp community at large be doing anything to help >>besides joining PIJAC and commenting on the USFWS request for >>information?

Yes - they can participate in our Reptile Law Resource Center by submitting local laws, they can contact their local herp clubs and organizations and help them develop their responses, they can contact the offices and the agencies and the players involved in this and make them aware of their displeasure, they can contact the media on their own and offer rebuttal. They can do all of this while they are gathering their own data to write their own response to the USFW request.

>Is the community planning on doing anything or is everyone >waiting for PIJAC?

I don't see anyone waiting for PIJAC, I see lots of people doing stuff on their own every day

>>The papers written by the Barker's should be released as press >releases. Is that happening? Do we need to make it happen?

The Barkers wrote the papers they need to be the ones to make it happen

>>I have heard very little from the industry about what we are supposed to do about this. I am just wondering what I can do to help? I don't keep boas or pythons but I recognize that we all must band together and fight.
>>
>>Mike Welker
>>El Paso, TX

I don't know what to say Mike, I know that I have attended meetings, teleconferences, participated in chats, launched a whole new law dbase, launched a mail list, am speaking at an ETHS
meeting tonight. I think that the message from us and from PIJAC has been pretty clear that right now we are all in data gathering mode and that the responses need to be held until late before being delivered. I know that we plan on releasing data and comments to be used for submissions later in the month. If other people or organizations would care to respond with what steps they have taken or will be taking to respond, feel free.

...Florida's attorney general Bill McCollum. He basically sat on his hands when sen. Connie Mack retired and let this Bill Nelson pinhead get into office. It's hard to get people to vote for you when you sit on your duff and don't let anyone know you are running for office. BTW when we are all paying $4 a gallon for gas and people are losing their homes because they can no longer afford to pay their mortgage payments not just from the fuel expense but from loosing jobs due the economy going into the toilet because of the fuel expense be sure to send sen.BILL NELSON a thank you letter for that one. He is one of the largest opponents to drilling in the eastern gulf of Mexico (as are all but one of our fl. congressmen unfortunately.) The claim is that it would hurt tourism and the old enviromental speel. The truth is a bunch of his rich contributors down in Naples don't want the view of their overpriced condos marred by ugly oil rigs. There are more reasons than our pets to get this clown out of office. America needs America's oil.

you think that will change anything, if the oil is coming from america that just means there will be a few more fat super rich americans at the top of the ladder, the problem with oil is that americans are in control, look at ethonol a couple years ago everyone was making such a huge fuss that it would save everything bla bla bla, you go to a station that carries it and gas is 3.25 ethonol 3.10, is much of a fuss they made about ethonol it should be $2, its not becasue americans are in control and greed is the driving factor, ehtonol is really worse for our economy then good it competes with corn, grain etc and drives them up while it does nothing to hold the fuel prices down

just my opinion
-----
I love my country but I'm scared to death of its government
Ya believe what you read cause it's all that we give ya
Cause all of history is written by winners
I'm engaged in a frenzy of mass self-destruction
I feed upon your famine to fuel my corruption
I'm wholeselling hatred and international incest
To carnivorous hyenas in a global theft fest
I've mastered the arts of death and foreign nations genocide
And those who turn on me commit national suicide

I'm the queen of the global dream
And I rule a declining nation
I sit and watch all the violent screams
From the throne of your desperation
W.A.S.P.

I posted these thoughts on the boa forum to the same topic covered by another television news station---

Posted by: jscrick at Fri Mar 28 13:03:29 2008 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

If so many people are releasing their captive born pet Burmese Pythons loose in the Everglades, where are all the morphs?
Are they finding Albinos, Greens, Labyrinths, etc? Not hearing anything about that. There would be a reasonable percentage of heterozygous for such things in that wild feral population, if indeed they are released pets that are reproducing in the wild. There should be a reasonable number of "Morphs" in any sample population, shouldn't there? Never hear anything about finding Burmese morphs in the Everglades. Seems to me a large Albino would be even more newsworthy.
Throws their whole premise, as to the origin of this snake population into question.
-----

-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I agree John.
There should be a HUGE percentage of hets or albino's, seeing that normal burms haven't been produced in years. Most "normals" on the market today are probably het for "something"!

Randal Berry

you gotta remeber FL is where everything comes in, they still are importing lost of normal wildcaught/cb berms, any baby albinos produced in the wild in FL are as likely to survive as they are in their native home range which is really not likely, as for the stuff they are finding its all the cheap [bleep] as babies, monitors their biggest problem is niles, berms normals etc its all the cheap throw away pet crap, to me it reenforces the fact that its idiot people releasing pets and bottom line is the animals will breed and get established, now I dont think there is the hundreds of thousands lose down there that some people make it out to be but in time there will be

I was watching a special on NG about this problem that shown me how large this issue really is, the camera crews road with some trappers in FL that were going after nile monitors, he was explaining how hard they were to trap etc etc, throughout the course of the show there was over 30 animals filmed that they were unable to catch and these 30 differant nile monitors were in two counties, thats 15 per county, now i can believe those were all releases or from a pet store that got knocked down during a hurricane, really it doesnt matter how they got there

bottom line is the reptile industry is done, the days are numbered, becasue if you want to be in denial about the animals breeding in FL feel free, but in 2yrs those niles monitors will double and become 60 covering 4 counties and in 4yrs they will cover 6 counties, I think its funny these animals will breed in our cagings and artificial enviroments but some people think they are going to just hang out, eat and abstain in FL LOL

the bottom line is that this WAS our problem, we as part of the reptile industry have had years to clean these messes up but for years everyone has turned their backs, been in denial, turned a blind eye with the only concern for how much we could charge for our next out ragious BP morph, greed etc

it sad but in one form or another they will pass this, bit by bit this industry will be dismanteled till it is no more
-----
I love my country but I'm scared to death of its government
Ya believe what you read cause it's all that we give ya
Cause all of history is written by winners
I'm engaged in a frenzy of mass self-destruction
I feed upon your famine to fuel my corruption
I'm wholeselling hatred and international incest
To carnivorous hyenas in a global theft fest
I've mastered the arts of death and foreign nations genocide
And those who turn on me commit national suicide

I'm the queen of the global dream
And I rule a declining nation
I sit and watch all the violent screams
From the throne of your desperation
W.A.S.P.

" bottom line is the reptile industry is done, the days are numbered, becasue if you want to be in denial about the animals breeding in FL feel free, but in 2yrs those niles monitors will double and become 60 covering 4 counties and in 4yrs they will cover 6 counties, I think its funny these animals will breed in our cagings and artificial enviroments but some people think they are going to just hang out, eat and abstain in FL LOL " The Caiman

In 2yrs ? I guess that TV show you were watching failed to mention that the first feral monitors were reported buy Fl fish and wildlife 40 years ago. If you actually were here and understood these animals instead of formulating your " but in 2yrs those niles monitors will double and become 60 covering 4 counties and in 4yrs they will cover 6 counties " theory`s you would understand just how irrelevant the " PROBLEM IS " LOL

As for the points in reference to why there are no albinos being found again your basing your comments on misguided information. No body's in denial about these animals breeding in FL. As it's been pointed out the fact that no morphs of any type are found is note worthy and it's also interesting that the mention of this has been completely avoided by those studying the situation. Make you wonder why they don't want this point to brought up publicly . There's a lot more I could add . The bottom line is ,

Your right the reptile industry is as finished as 80`s hair metal. So go out get a job and buy a prime cut of beef to throw at Blackie Lawless .

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

Ernie,
GREAT post!

Randal

"In 2yrs ? I guess that TV show you were watching failed to mention that the first feral monitors were reported buy Fl fish and wildlife 40 years ago. If you actually were here and understood these animals instead of formulating your " but in 2yrs those niles monitors will double and become 60 covering 4 counties and in 4yrs they will cover 6 counties " theory`s you would understand just how irrelevant the " PROBLEM IS " LOL"

LOL you reinforce my point dude, ya I over exagerated how fast the population is growing but 40yrs and they still havent been eradicated but you say they are irrelevant, after 40yrs I think they are very relevant, that shows me how versitile they are that after all this time they are still there, I never realized this issue was that old I thought it started in the early 90's, bottom line is you guys play this down so much I think its funny, you guys are so in denial, you guys down play the fact these animals are breeding and spreading and this is why this law will pass, why should anyone who makes desisions take us serious when alot of you guys are lying top each other, Im a repotile guy but I can see reality for what it is and im not going to sit here and sugar coat stuff and lie about the fact these animals ARE breeding and getting established, as for the moprphs who gives a crap maybe the majority of the established mature adults are normals, FL is were the majority of the wild caught come into the US and YES there is still 20,000 or so wild caught/captive hatched/farmed whatever berms brought in every year, all the lack of wild morphs down thee tells me is people are selling their morphed berms instead of releasing them and releasing the nasty dirt cheap, normal throw away berms that are being brought in, becasue reality is wild caught/ 1st gen berms are not as docile as the typical CBB we are used to much like retics, bottom line this is all what is really irrelavent, there is alot of non native animals roaming that are a severe problem

for 20yrs been part and watched as this grew into and "industry" and went from those of us who were considering "freaks" with snakes in glass cages in our basement to to this money making giant were greed rules and for years ive watched as everyone chased the all mighty dollar and were so busy with their greed and next hot morph to work togther and police ourselves, this is what happens, all the talk in the world isnt going to change what is about to happen,

anyway take care
-----
I love my country but I'm scared to death of its government
Ya believe what you read cause it's all that we give ya
Cause all of history is written by winners
I'm engaged in a frenzy of mass self-destruction
I feed upon your famine to fuel my corruption
I'm wholeselling hatred and international incest
To carnivorous hyenas in a global theft fest
I've mastered the arts of death and foreign nations genocide
And those who turn on me commit national suicide

I'm the queen of the global dream
And I rule a declining nation
I sit and watch all the violent screams
From the throne of your desperation
W.A.S.P.

Reinforce your point ? If you feel that way alright but from my perspective you have completely failed to grasp the point.

In your opinion refuting obvious propaganda based attacks geared at evoking a knee jerk political reaction or questioning various biological doomsday scenarios that are little more then unfounded speculation , equates to lies and denial that leads to a lack of credibility. Perhaps the Barkers would have been taken more seriously if they ended their well researched paper on Burmese python distribution with a quote from a wasp CD. Honestly what's more credible then the words of a 50 yr old guy with dyed hair spandex pants and a saw blade cod piece.

You got in the game in the late 80`s when the band wagon was already rolling. Now that things are getting rough by comparison you want to blame everyone else for your problems and especially the people who are the corner stones of the business you jumped into. It's all the sour grapes and finger pointing . Do you actually think the Bob Clarks and Mark Bells of the world have the means to alter current state of things? Tell me what all could have been done ? If you have the answers lets hear them. I wish we were more proactive on the legislative front in the early days maybe it would have made a difference maybe not but I'm certainly not pointing any fingers or blaming anyone.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

>>I never realized this issue was that old I thought it started in the early 90's, bottom line is you guys play this down so much I think its funny, you guys are so in denial, you guys down play the fact these animals are breeding and spreading and this is why this law will pass, why should anyone who makes desisions take us serious when alot of you guys are lying top each other,..."

I see a lot of verbage, but please provide some *evidence* to back up your claims/beliefs. What exactly is the "problem?" With regard to Burmese pythons, so far you've only presented unsubstantiated opinion/speculation. The only "evidence" I've heard so far from supposed experts is one anecdote about an endangered rodent being found in the stomach of a burm. That's not a complete, objective analysis, it's not even close. BTW, did you watch the video cited in the original post? In one clip, the gator was actually eating the python. So if we are going to use single anecdotes as evidence, I guess we can conclude that burms are helping local wildlife.

Now I agree with you the herp industry is in trouble, but that doesn't mean we should all robotically agree to the propaganda being spewed by animal rights groups and people who irrationally fear snakes/reptiles.

Thanks,
Ed

According to the Fish and game guys(per their publications on the niles) that population of Niles has been around for over 10yrs. While it has grown it has not grown to the proportions that you suspect they are. As much stuff as gets turned loose here in fl. not as much gets established as you think. There was an importer in cent. fl. who was notorious for turning loose sick reptiles(not hearsay...I actually witnessed it personally, reported it to fish and game also who did nothing btw.) For everything he turned loose over the years the only thing to establish itself were red-headed agamas which apparently have not spread very far and the population is predated on heavily by reptile collectors.

What city in Central Florida?

Randal Berry

Around 1990 was when the niles claimed to be confirmed but there are reports on record going back to the 70`s maybe further. For example in northern Florida one individual was collected in Lake Kanapaha, Alachua County, in 1981. This type of thing.

Around 2004 A biologist from Tampa Matt Campell was called in by the city of Cape Coral to do a study. He played the game the way these guys always do. If he would have said he found a few monitors and that the only things in their stomachs were apple snails and Cuban tree frogs no body would have done a thing. Instead he started talking about how the monitors could kill and eat your pets and endangered species like burrowing owls. He also gave wild estimations for the population and possibility of expansion. Exactly the formula Skip Snow has used with the Burmese pythons and with similar results . It's all about milking the system.

A couple of environmental groups ate that crap up and gave Campell somewhere between 50 to 70 k to work on the problem plus perks for a year. This clown made a killing and accomplished nothing. The reason groups finance these guys is simple . Press time . For their wright off money these groups get a huge amount of local and national TV, radio and press coverage to aid their objectives. It 's a bargain. As soon as that first round of grant money was burned up even if the "problem" was the same as it always was Campell was given the boot. Why not, Pay once and the story's go on forever they got what they wanted out of this clown. What's funny is while the environmental radicals were behind Campbell the animal right activist were trying to shut him down.

The city of Cape Coral then tried to hit up the federal government for cash and assistance but that was a no go and with good reason. At that time Cape coral was in the middle of one of the biggest growth booms in US history all up and the west Coast money was being made hand over fist. With all that cash flow these people were crying poor mouth trying to get the federal government to hand them money for what amounts to nothing more then a local problem. To top it off they just fired their chosen expert " Campell " because no body thought he was worth paying. The whole thig is a joke.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

His name is Dr. Todd Campbell. I've met him on several occasions and talked to him personally about the niles. He is NOT telling people that niles are killing their pets.The analysis of stomach contents that he did that I saw indicated that in spite of being part of that african sub-genus that supposedly have jaws designed to eat molluscs they really don't eat that many at all, a similar conclusion to what Daniel Bennett indicates in his book on related Savannah monitors which seem to prefer millipedes to anything else. Anyway the pet thing aside which is total crap that he did not bring up. Niles are a potential serious enviromental threat here. Not only to burrowing owls but to crocodillians as well. Niles are already know for their predation on crocodillian eggs a habit which gave monitors their namesake to begin with.Niles could possibly- if allowed to increase in population-wipe out the U.S. population of american crocodiles. While it is true that the greatest threat to burrowing owls and other species is the uncontrolled development going on in fl. not to mention feral cats, they don't need niles making things worse.

Yes I got his first name wrong that's about it. Your biological evaluations are way off.

" While it is true that the greatest threat to burrowing owls and other species is the uncontrolled development going on in fl. not to mention feral cats, they don't need niles making things worse." MadAxeMan

Burrowing owls love land development . A little front yard is perfect . In neighbor hoods were there are loose cats and dogs everywhere. All they have to protect them is a piece of ribbon. I use to feed them at night right in the middle of cape coral the busiest part of town . They came around like pigeons. Burrowing owls like it high and dry the opposite of the Niles. The owls are very invasive themselves. Drain a wetland put in a housing project with a few dirt patch's and the owls are good to go.

Maybe Todd didn't start the part about the danger to pets but he certainly didn't try and dispel that myth. He was media hound all the way . He played that game for all it was worth. What did the analysis of stomach contents revel the lizards were eating? Frogs, insects , snails, alligators ? I'm curious what exactly did Dr. Campbell find in the stomachs ? As for the monitors threat to American crocodiles . Highly over rated like much of the hype.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com

"His name is Dr. Todd Campbell. I've met him on several occasions and talked to him personally about the niles. He is NOT telling people that niles are killing their pets." Madaxeman

Dr. Campbell isn't telling people the monitors are eating their pets? Well he certainly made it a point to include anecdotal accounts about cats and dachshonds being devoured in his official report.He concluded this segment by saying it's plausible. He also made sure to thank all his friends in the media for helping . These guys all play the same game. It's a way to earn.

Ernie Eison
westwoodreptiles.com
Link

Think how many persons have been wrongly convicted and sent to prison on Expert Opinion and Testimony.
It's highly over rated.
That's one of the many things wrong with America, we're just all to anxious to forfeit our own good judgment and common sense to some "authority". Delegation of the intellect for convenience.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

If you want to see all these laws against owning reptiles pass quickly and with more to come vote Demacrat.You'll get the the house and Congress unchecked and wild about restricting freedom.Note the well informed Senetor Nelson's (D)Fl.comment.I know what your thinking"what about the Republicans and what would my friends think" Screw it! grow up,get real,stop believeing the fools,you wont be able to have a cat if they rule.No one will know who you vote for. Vic