Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Being a regular to this forum I have noticed many people giving advice about scenting, but this advice fails to explain the associated risks of using wildcaught animals for scenting and/or food.
As a breeder I want to stress that scenting with WC should be a last ditch effort!! Most WC prey items are loaded with parasites,viruses, bacteria etc.. all of which your exposing your collection too when you do this. My advice is to try Salmon scent, chicken , tuna scenting 1st (combo of the 3 works well)or braining, if thus does not work then try using WC scent on Qtip, hold the scent in front of them and when they open there mouths insert a unscented pinky. This has many benefits, you don't expose your animals to the countless diseases and parasites of WC and they tend to switch over to unscented pinks faster this way since they quickly become accustom to the taste and smell of the unscented. I use this technique no matter what I scent with!

In the end any breeder who consistently exposes there collection to this types of risks is playing a very risky game and will likely loose in the end. Freezing only kills a few pathogens, so even freezing the scent or prey items doesn't make it safe or anywhere near safe. Pathogens like crypto and salmonella are abundant in amphibians..and crypto can withstand bleach, heat up to 160F and freezing...so please keep this in mind.I would hate to be the one who sells a crypto infested hog to someone just to have it wipe out someones entire collection..so please practice safe techniques.
Best Regards,
Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com
ExtremeHogs.com

Justin what do you mean when you refer to chicken scenting are you talking about canned chicken broth or something else? I have 2 clutches of westerns born 2 and 3 weeks ago that are not eating very well yet, some have not eaten at all. I've tried scenting with tuna water and it worked for a few but most ignored it any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I havent tried live pinkies yet I want that to be my last option.

thanks mike

When I use chicken I use a piece of raw breast and rub the pinky in it...the water from a can of salmon works far better than tuna in my opinion.
Also try combo's
blend a small piece of chicken with some salmon juice..mix in frogs or lizards..get creative...hogs want to eat it's just a matter of finding what smells best!! Also offer with tongs or tweezers they are very sight oriented feeders and motion helps to stimulate a response.
Also make sure the pinks are small enough if not use the heads!
Email me if that doesn't work...
ExtremeHogs.com

FYI Chicken carries salmonella as well, and many rodent colonies are infested with various parasites. The risks are everywhere, and not just associated with scenting.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Actually you should red this Joe..
http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/dfbmd/disease_listing/salmonellosis_gi.html
Salmonella exist in live animals digestive tracks.Meat has to become contaminated with salmonella to grow salmonella on it in order to infect. Chicken from the store has been tested by the USDA and should contain no salmonella. Leave it out on the counter for a short period of time and it will become contaminated. Same goes for most other parasites and pathogens..

I don't understand the point of your post Joe..feeding a wc toad to a snake is not comparable to store bought chicken or cb mice...and the mice I buy are regulary tested for all parasites and pathogens and my supplier also supplies zoo's as well. I am sure do they do there own indipendent testing..so I am quite confident my feeders are far healthier ( and safer) than the common WC toad or blended toad used for scenting(who may of came from a trash heap for all we know).
The point of my post is to teach people alternatives to such options that are safer and perhaps better than the ones presented previously..not to argue.
Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

I just re-read my post, and it surely did not sound like an attack to me, nor was it meant to be.

I did not say that ALL chicken has salmonella, I said chicken carries salmonella too. I stand by that. I've had my fair share of salmonella from store bought chicken that wasn't cooked properly. As someone who has dabbled in parasitology I think you'd be amazed at what gets by the USDA.

I also did not say that YOUR mice carry parasites, I said that MANY mouse colonies carry parasites. I stand by that.

Then I went on to say that risks are everywhere, and not just associated with scenting. I stand by that as well, but it was NOT meant to contradict your post, but rather supplement it.

But then you went on to compare feeding WC Toads to store bought (RAW) chicken. Both risky IMO, but that was a tangent not present in the original discussion.

So, Justin, no offense, but I'm not sure why you took my post so personally. Maybe it sounded like a lecture?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

I've read both your posts, and neither sound like a deliberate attack. Both were meant to be informative and serve as a caution.

However, there is somewhat flawed logic in avoiding scenting with WC toads or frogs. Wild hognose would routinely come in contact with wild food items in nature, and by your caveat, may harbor pathogens. However, WC hognose still exist and have not been wiped off the face of the earth. I understand that a person shouldn't want to introduce illness into their captive populations and then deal with treatment and vet bills, but completely avoiding "tainted" prey is not something that would likely happen in nature.

With that said, it is recommended to avoid introducing any illness into a captive population, just because it is a hassle to deal with and it puts the whole collection at risk. But hognose in nature cannot select prey items that are totally free from pathogens. It's just good practice, because no one likes dealing with illness.

I agree with Joe that contamination is everywhere. As a microbiologist, I hate to admit that the USDA overlooks (intentionally or not) many possible contamination problems.

Just my opinions and two cents.
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Robert Charvat
1.1 het albino Western Hognose

and to put it all into perspective, when we talk about scenting a food item, invariably it is because an animal won't eat what we are offering. With death by starvation as the alternative, certain risks can be acceptable (to some of us).

We all want the same thing - healthy, thriving, eating and breeding Hogs.

BTW I have two pairs of WC kennerlyi locked up on and off for the last three days.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

Good luck! Let us know if it's a productive hook-up.
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Robert Charvat
1.1 het albino Western Hognose

"when we talk about scenting a food item, invariably it is because an animal won't eat what we are offering. With death by starvation as the alternative, certain risks can be acceptable (to some of us)."

After getting several hundred hatchlings to feed I feel most people take to scenting too quickly.But generally this is ok as long as the practices and mediums used are safe. A normal sized hatchling hognose can last 4 months without dying. I say 4 months because thats usually the point in which I put them down I have yet had one phyisically starve to death. I would say that about 99-98% take to feeding. Out of the 1-2% you may have internal defects etc so really the fraction that refuses to eat and dies as a result is probably quite small.
I agree that if all else fails of course it is the only real course of action left. But after that the animal should be quarentined and later a fecal done if it is to be sold or entering a breeding collection.I also believe the new owner should be aware of this as well! We do this as a bare minimum with all other species so why not hogs?
Then again a larger question comes into my mind.. that most probably don't address. Feeding response in part is genetic and hereditary. Years ago most cb lines of westerns were picky feeders and scenting was required.Today that is changing due to survival of the fitest and better feeding techniques. In captivity this mean those animals that adept well to captive conditions and feed on rodents without problems etc.. Over time this type of domestication produces animals that behave better feed better and do better etc.. When we take a hatchling that exhibits bad traits and use it for breeding then we are regressing. This one animal may produce several offspring over it's lifetime that fail to thrive and the progeny pass on these genetics that have the same effect. So as breeders and hobbyist what should our goal be..get them feeding at all cost. Or produce the finest healthiest specimens possible?
It is a personal judgement call that should be based on what your intentions are. My intentions are to create the most robust , strongest most colorful hognose ever..a hognose that rips food from your hands and does exceptionally well in captivity.My line exhibits these traits already, this was accomplished not only by myself but by others outcrossing specimens that I later refined into what I work with today. In 10-20 years I can't imagine how fun this species will be if things continue to improve the way they are! Proper techniques , husbandry skills and responsible breeders are the keys to this continuing.
ExtremeHogs.com

"It is a personal judgement call that should be based on what your intentions are. My intentions are to create the most robust , strongest most colorful hognose ever..a hognose that rips food from your hands and does exceptionally well in captivity.My line exhibits these traits already, this was accomplished not only by myself but by others outcrossing specimens that I later refined into what I work with today. In 10-20 years I can't imagine how fun this species will be if things continue to improve the way they are! Proper techniques , husbandry skills and responsible breeders are the keys to this continuing."
ExtremeHogs.com

I entirely agree with Justin. The ultimate hognose should be those that have an aggressive feeding response, show good breeding activity year after year, and a collector should frequently outcross animals for the purpose, not only of improving color/ pattern, but also the hardiness of the breed.
J. Clayton
cahaba river reptiles
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J. Clayton
www.cahabariverreptiles.com

Wild conditions are not comparable to captive conditions. In the wild a snake is unlikely to crawl through its own feces or drink out of a contaminated water dish. Wild snakes also have the option of raising their body temperature much higher than most captive set-ups allow and this may help them regulate parasite / bacteria levels. It's very easy for parasite levels to get unnaturally high in a captive setting.

The frogs and toads used for scenting also often do not originate from the same location as the hognose. They may harbor novel parasites and bacteria or strains that the hog has not evolved to deal with.

I think that this is a great thread and highlights some issues that everyone should keep in mind. I don't think that anyone disagrees that using a wild caught prey item for scenting purposes is preferrable to a dead snake, if that's what it takes.

-Alice

"I did not say that ALL chicken has salmonella, I said chicken carries salmonella too."

A whole live chicken carries salmonella in it's intestinal tract..only contaminated chicken meat (usually with feces) carries salmonella..

"I also did not say that YOUR mice carry parasites, I said that MANY mouse colonies carry parasites. I stand by that."
I am sure there are!!

"Then I went on to say that risks are everywhere, and not just associated with scenting. I stand by that as well, but it was NOT meant to contradict your post, but rather supplement it."

Risk are everywhere but not all risk are equal!

"But then you went on to compare feeding WC Toads to store bought (RAW) chicken. Both risky IMO, but that was a tangent not present in the original discussion."

Joe I disagree with your post because it sounded like you genralize the risk..they are not the same. Feeding a WC toad to a cb snake is FAR more risky than scenting with store bought "supposedly" uncontaminated chicken meat.Your post to me clouded the issue and took the subject off topic by discussing the exceptions to the rule. There's exceptions to everything and there's statistical risks to everything...BUT comperativly and statistically it is not the same and my post was meant to point that out.

"So, Justin, no offense, but I'm not sure why you took my post so personally. Maybe it sounded like a lecture?"

Again Because it's misleading...
Statistically speaking raw chicken carries a risk..but that risk is very small comperativly and really not worth discussing, same with parasite laden mice collections. The topic I presented was that of scenting and the techniques used..not the general risk associated with feeding.

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"However, there is somewhat flawed logic in avoiding scenting with WC toads or frogs. Wild hognose would routinely come in contact with wild food items in nature, and by your caveat, may harbor pathogens. However, WC hognose still exist and have not been wiped off the face of the earth."

The vast majority of hatchlings die of disease , predation , starvation etc..Only a fraction of the luckiest and strongest survive those conditions into adulthood. Cb hognose have not been expose to these pathogens and parasites and may not have the built up immune systems to handle them.Go to Mexico and drink the tap water and see what happens to you...but the locals have no problem?? WHY?
There is no flawed logic here..Time and Time again this reasoning has been proved wrong..ask the numerous breeders who have imported wc..collected wc and fed wc to cb and see what they have to say about the subject..I guarantee you it isn't positive in general.

"I understand that a person shouldn't want to introduce illness into their captive populations and then deal with treatment and vet bills, but completely avoiding "tainted" prey is not something that would likely happen in nature.""

This is why most perish in nature!!! If you were to mimick wild conditions 100% accuratly down to the parasites and predators I think you'd find that even adult hognose have a relativly short and brief lifespan in general under those condistions especially compared with captive.

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"In the wild a snake is unlikely to crawl through its own feces or drink out of a contaminated water dish."

Well that depends on the keepers husbandry practices doesn't it? ..personally I'd rather drink out of one of my hogs water bowls than out of a stagnant pond or puddle..anyday..LOL

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Sorry for sounding argumentative here, I hope no-one takes what I wrote personally only trying to help.
ExtremeHogs.com

>>Joe I disagree with your post because it sounded like you genralize the risk.

Justin,
I am in no way generalizing the risk. I think it's important for everyone to understand and evaluate ALL the risks. It's OK if you disagree with those statements I made, but I STILL stand by them

Forks
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

>>Again Because it's misleading...
>> Statistically speaking raw chicken carries a risk..but that risk >>is very small comperativly and really not worth discussing, same >>with parasite laden mice collections.

Here you are generalizing a risk, what you accuse me of doing with a simple statement above.

Forks
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks
Captive Bred Locality Matched Desert Kingsnakes

some of these generalizations are incorrect although the idea of using alternate scenting methods first is a good idea.

1) Raw chicken does carry a salmonella risk. Having worked inside a poultry processing plant (thank god that is in the past)I can assure you that salmonella does exist on the outside of the meat. You are correct that the infection comes from salmonella that originally existed inside the lower GI tract but the meat does come into contact regardless. There are stringent tests taken by USDA, as well as the in house Q&A depts, to insure that levels are not too high and the public is not in danger from sal. Is eating chicken a bad idea? I will ponder this over the barbecues thighs I'm planning on grilling today (complete cooking is the key).
2) Breeders who use w/c FROZEN prey items should not think that they have a disproportionally higher likelihood of exposing their collection to pathogens. Even lab raised mice can develop some nasty zoonotic illness (ask most rodent breeders when was the last time they changed out their water lines on their gravity fed units. Cut open a line that has been used for a few years and look at the funk that has been built up). Captive rodents can be a source of contamination. Without having fecals run on your colony (or from the mice you purchase) you cannot state that you feed "safe" food items. I'm not trying to state that captive rodents are unsafe but I am saying that there are risks in ALL the feed sources we use.
3) Lastly, Cryptosporidium serpentes is primarily transmitted via a fecal to oral route (making captive conditions a perfect place to transmit this disease) and I cannot find any professional literature that states that amphibians pose a risk to snakes for C. serpentes infection.

I agree that the best methods to get finicky snakes to feed is to first address the husbandry of the animal then use the best methods of feeding that we have at our disposal. It's great that there are some quality discussions going on in this forum. I hope everyone has great luck this breeding season!

"Breeders who use w/c FROZEN prey items should not think that they have a disproportionally higher likelihood of exposing their collection to pathogens."
My Vet who has some incredible credentials(Vet for the Internation Exotic Animal Sanctuary, noted longtime herp vet. and reptile keeper, Falconer etc..) believes that using frozen WC prey is extremely dangerous and urged me to stay with buying captive mice. I rather be on the safe side.

It took me only a couple minutes looking through google to find a couple cases of cb Frogs testing positive for C.serp,..as well as some unidentified spp. from wc's.
Crypto is just one of many pathogens I would like to avoid if at all possible.
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Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

Could you send me a link to the papers detailing cb frogs and C. serpentes? I always like to add to my files on subjects like this.

Crypto is certainly something you want to keep out of your collection. The years I have spent professionally and privately working with reptiles has given me a decent base knowldege on this disease. As with most things the more you learn the more questions you have and this disease needs much more field and lab study. Unfortunately private people are very reluctant to talk about this and tend to sweep any symptomatic animals under the proverbial rug.

You state the risks of scenting, yet you then say "blend a small piece of chicken with some salmon juice..mix in frogs or lizards..get creative"

Does this combination of frogs and lizards counter act each other to salmonella and crypto you mentioned? I would think it would increase the odds?
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"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

Thank you justin, for the last 2 years following your advice my hogs never miss a meal and I don't have probs any more.My opinion is that There wasn't anything you described that wouldn't help.

Thanks Agin
David Dedrick

That was very nice of you to post that!!
ExtremeHogs.com

Well, personal experience that I have run across in the past and recently.

Several years ago I was a "natural diet" person feeding my easterns frozen WC toads. I ended up loosing 1:3 breeding adults to an unknown pathogen introduced by the toads. Multiple vet visits and bills still could not save those animals. They literally starved to death eating every 3 days. It was horrible.

Recently, I have had a whole new situtation come up with WC easterns that I have been converting over to mice. They were all rescues given to me by various people. I have been using treefrogs for scenting, which I will no longer do. The animals were all treated with panacur when coming in, and go through strict quarentine. However 3 animals that I have been using treefrog scented mice, or the ole bait and switch method, developed eye infections. Long story short, the eye "infection" is actually some tapeworm type larva. It took loosing the first animal and the 2nd coming down with the same symptoms, for the vet and I to finally figure out what was going on. Panacur has no effect, and we have had to give injections of Praziquantal to get this bug under control. Unfortunately, by the time symptoms show it is pretty advanced. This all from scenting....hard lesson to learn, but it is a leasson learned.
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Jenea
Guardian Reptiles

"When your memories are bigger than your dreams, you're headed for the grave" Author unknown

Thanks for giving us your insight.

Good Lord. Would you please contact me when you produce more of these so I can buy a pair. Please---Please----Please. Very cool.

Thanks
J. Clayton
www.cahabariverreptiles.com