Reptile & Amphibian Forums

am sure have already asked this somewhere already but could not find the post. I have some het hypos coming from lockwood, and have just come across a european line of hypos, i can afford to buy some poss hets, even the whole clutch perhaps. Im wondering if anyone has done some work with 2 separate lines of hypos yet? Seeing that i know my lockwood is A HET, i will be able to use him with some of the 66% girls from this line. But im wondering if this is worth it, or i have to just have a much much longer game of lottery by working out what is 100% and what is just a normal? They do have very unique -patterning anyway so i guess is no harm trying to put that pattern into the hypo.

Hope that makes sense, and love to hear some opinions, as i need to purchase very soon, or someone else will snap up. And if doesnt make sense, will im currently renovating thenew house and havent slept for a few days!!!

Dave,

No work has been done with hypos from different lines. It's a gamble to cross a known het to a suspected one from a different line. If it were me, I's keep the lines separate until I had at least 100% hets to work with. Better would be hypo to 100% het. Best would be hypo to hypo.
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Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

fair point, but slight problem, i only get hets if you accidently put in a hypo in my order from you by accident, promise i wont hold it against you!!

I might try and get a few of them, and have a play around, guess you gotta gamble sometimes mother nature does strange things!!

Cheers
Dave

What Mike was alluding too was to keep the two lines seperate until you had known hets at a minimum, hypo x known het better or best would be two hypos. AKA second gen for crossing. If you were to breed a known Lockwood het with a possible European het and got nothing what does that mean? Either the possible het was not a het or the two lines are not compatable. Also, could have come out short on odds and simply not produced any homozygous hypos.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

yeah mike and dave, i understand the point now. What is the best way to work out the hets though, is it just to breed a brother to a few sisters, hoping the male is a het, an at least one of the female is? Then the following year, to try the same with another brother? Ie continue like this till you get a hit? Then once know which are hets, or if actually get hypos, to outcroess them with normals, to get a better bloodline?
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Dave

1.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Exactly the problem with pos hets, finding the actual ones. IMO breed in trios looking for hypos, when hypos are produced it proves out both parents. Once you have known hets, then breeding will produce hypos and more pos hets. As quickly as possible, IMO only breed hypos to hets or normals to ensure the het status. Known hets are MUCH better for breeding. Once you have that hypo, you can cross it to a normal to improve color and add genetic diversity. My personal plan with outcrossing is to breed one pair of hets together one time to produce the hypo breeders from that outcrossing.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

There are several lines of hypos in the U.S., but nobody here is aware of anyone crossing the lines. Tus, it is a bit of a gamble, but could produce something special. I would make certain that you have enough hets in both lines in case they atre not comnpatible.
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Mike

7.13 BRB
1.2 Spotted Python
1.0 Cal. King

What are the different lines?

The two oldest lines I know of are:

1. Mike Lockwood /EBV line
2. Darrin Bell Line

Dave Colling has a couple of unproven lines - his genesis line and his pearl lines. I am sure there are others out there too.
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Mike

7.13 BRB
1.2 Spotted Python
1.0 Cal. King

when someone says proven, do they mean, that it has been bred to a normal, produced hets, and then the hets produced homo offspring? Ie, is there such a thing as a non proven hypo?? In the fact that, it has been bred and no homo offspring produced after a few generations? Does this mean it can still be a hypo, or is more just a very light normal? Hope that made sense

Also what has happened in other species of snakes, say balls or bci when hypo lines have been crossed? Does anyone know?
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Dave

1.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

I would say that a snake thought to be a hypo that has not produced any hypo offspring after a few generations would not genetically be a hypo. The hypo gene should come out within a few generations.

There are a lot of light brb's out there, and some even look like a hypo. Thus, one needs to be carefull if buying. The flip side is that if it is a true hypo - a decent deal may be out there.
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Mike

7.13 BRB
1.2 Spotted Python
1.0 Cal. King

yeah ok, thats why was a bit dubious about my anery, wanted to make sure it wasnt a darker normal. But given the look of the other offspring, and when i actually had the snake in my hands, there is definetely something very different to a normal. Guess thats the hard thing buying snakes over the internet, colours in pictures dont always do justice. And i guess buying from a reputable breeder is the best sure way.
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Dave

1.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

yeah unless you can see the animal in person then you are completely relying on the sellers reputation to garuntee getting what is advertised.

That being said you do not have to buy only from the big name established breeders to be safe. Ask arround, but quietly not in public, and you can likely find someone you trust who can vouch for the unknown breeder. If you cannot then find someone you trust that can vouch for them then look to buy from a different breeder. Or just accept it as a gamble of a purchase.

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

was also meaning to ask, does it ever happen that you get a normal out of 2 homozygous snakes? Im pretty sure it cant happen, but dont really understand genetics enough. Ie is it possible to breed to homo hypos, and have say 15 hypo babies and one normal looking which i guess would have to be a het?
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Dave

1.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Anything is possible, so yes. I don't believe snake genetics is that well understood... even human genetics has hardly reached that kind of point for most traits! If we could be positive that there is one codon that was responsible for the hypo trait, then yes we could say breeding two hypos would only result in hypos, but it just isn't that well understood. I would say that a wild from two hypos would be very rare, but not impossible. There is no logical explanation for it using the simple genetics we understand, but I have seen stranger things happen with breedings!

I don't believe snake genetics is that well understood.

i think i disagree with you here, it seems to me that genral genitics are understood quite well. i think what makes it seem hard is the statistics of it.

i will use the hypo gene as an exe because that the one gene i am most familiar with..

im pretty sure the hypo gene has been proven to be a simple recessive trait... that means when you cross a norm x het 75% of the litter will be norm and 25% will be het. a het x het cross should give you 50% het 25% norm and 25% hypo....

the problem is that not every little works out to those exact numbers. but thats looking at one litter at a time. if you add up say 300 litters i would bet that those numbers add up to almost exactly that...

the other issue is the simple recessive isnt the only type of gene. and when you have a trait your trying to "prove" the only real way to do that (if i understand this correctly) is through breeding trials, which take a long time to do.

another exe is Daves "pearl" line. now to find out what kind of gene it is, if it even is a gene, they have to breed and the results of the litter can be matched up to whatever type gene it is. but this could take mayy breedings to figure out, and that means it could take years and years.... and i think that is what makes it tricky understanding whats whats...

so thats how i understand it to be, i might be way off here because im not 100% possitive but i dont think so. either way maybe Dave, or Jeff, or Mike will jump in and correct me where im wrong
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-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

What I meant there was a more in depth understanding of DNA and codons. We still don't know what human codons code for blue vs. brown eyes etc. If we don't know it for humans there's no way the world of science knows what genes codes for color with snakes. "Simple Recessive" is a relative term. Nothing in genetics is truly 'simple'. True it usually adheres to the punnette square statistics, but there's now way to know where on the chromosome there's a codon for hypo and if there's only one or more than that. How do those genes interact... etc. I know this is going to sound a bit presumptuous and for that I'm sorry, but I'm in grad school for Organic Chemistry with a specialty in molecular biology and natural products... so for this one I do know what I'm talking about (I said that just so you would know I'm not just blowing smoke), now whether or not I stated it clearly above... I can never be sure... LOL!!! Us sciencey types are always on our own planet verbally and we think we're saying stuff that makes sense, but it never does... LOL. For that I apologize.

lol no thats fine im sorry i missed your point, lol but thank you for not being arrogant lol.

yeah as i said i may be way off here and i guess i was but more so in i just missed what you where getting at, and thats fine thanks for clearing up.

as for me lol im no dumby myself i went to high school for 7 years lol jk

no i think i have a basic understanding as far as that goes, but you where talking a whole other level
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-Stephen-

0.1 soon to be wifey (hopefully)
1.0 rotwiler/chow (Boomer-wifey's pooch)
1.0 norm corn (Jake aka grumpy old terdhead)
0.1 col redtail boa (Dixie-my baby girl)
0.1 ball python (Bella- wifey's baby girl)

hopeful for not to distant future:
--brazillian rainbow boas 1 female for sure
2 or 3? maybe a breeding pair?
-- bearded dragon for the wifey my list got to big...

more distant future hopefuls
1 or 2 of each maybe a breeding pair?
--anery boa (ooooh)
--jungle carpet python (love to have 1 or 2)
--dumeril boa (ahhhh)

slightly more wishful thinking
--hypo br rainbow boa (love em)
--anery br rainbow boa (oooh even better!!)
--motely boa (gorgeous!!)

In the strict sense you are correct, whether it is a unknown gene interfering or masking(ie amel masking hypo) or mutation, etc.. there is always the possiblity of getting a statistical outlier that is the exception to the rule. However I suspect that, as you hinted with the very rare qualifier, the point of interest is on the expected reliable outcome of offspring.

There is one way to do a hypo x hypo and get a mix of hypo and normal offspring in the litter. Basically if the parents were each homozygous for different hypomelanistic genes and one(or both) of the parents was(were) also heterozygous for the other parents hypo gene. This of course is assuming that both hypo genes were simple recessive genes(inaccurate as the term may be lol). The result would be offspring that were hypo A hypo B, hypo A het hypo B, hypo B het hypo A, and normal offspring het hypo A het hypo B.

In general to prove out a simple recesive gene you need to first breed it to some unrelated normal specimens. This produces specimens that, at least theoretically, will be heterozygous for the gene. Once these first generation offspring are of breeding age you have to cross some of the "het" offspring together to test the het X het outcomes as well as cross the original specimen with one or more of the "het" offspring. Assuming that you get roughly the expected outcomes from those for a simple recesive gene you still have one more test to do. Once one of the "homozygous" offspring from either "het" x "het" or "het" x "hom" is of breeding age you still need to do a "hom" x "hom" breeding trial. If you got all normals from "hom" x normal, and got a mix of normals with "hom"'s from "het" x "het" or "het" x "hom", and you got all "hom" from "hom" x "hom" then the gene is basically proven simple recesive. The catch/exception of course is you would want to probably see several litters/clutches of each type of crossing before you actually claimed it proven just so you can rule out the possibility of abnormal results in a specific litter or other genes having a strong influence.

Hope I didn't just make it more confusing for you. Someone else may be able to break it down more simply than I was able to.

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

a monkey wrench in the works.......

Not common but also common enough to have been noticed and identified. Female snakes "can" retain sperm from prior breeding seasons and that sperm can produce viable babies the following breeding season. How exactly it is done I don't know and suspect has not been proven or maybe even not studied. Is the sperm kept or are fertilized ova kept in stasis for the following year???

A friend of mine breeds ball python morphs, many of which are dominant. Forget which morphs but one year he bred a normal female to a morph "A" male producing a mixed litter of morph "A" and normal babies as expected. The following year the same female was bred to morph "B" and the litter contained one morph "A" baby along with the morph "B" and normal babies!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
26.49 BRB
20.21 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

nah i find it really interesting and am slowly getting a better grasp of how it works. With what you said about the 2 different hypo lines, i wonder what that 1/16 snake would look like out of a DH pairing. If the 2 lines of hypo, were acutally not compatible, guess you just get another looking hypo, or mother nature providing you with something absolutely nuts!!

Do patterns work the same way? Ie recessive etc? And do they need to be proven out the same way?

Cheers
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Dave

1.2 Normal BRBs
0.1 Anery BRB
2.1 66% poss het anery BRB
1.1 het hypo BRB

Well not a BRB example but if you want an example of two incompatible lines of a single trait being exhibitted then take a look at albino SanDiego Gopher snakes. There are two different lines of albino that look different and further the double homozygous albinos look different from either line of albino's. Not that it will have any bearing on how other traits would exhibit but it is a good example of how the double homozygous form can be different.

Jason Nelson(Envy Reptiles) has many good pictures of double homozygous albino SanDiego Gophersnakes on his page here

http://www.kingsnake.com/nvreptiles/colubrids.htm

He is listed on the business page of KS so hopefully this will not be deleted.

Sean.
-----
1.1 BRB
1.1 Triple Het TPRS's
0.1 Silver TPRS
1.1 Amel Bloodred Corns
0.1 Abbott Okeetee Corn
0.1 Blizzard Bloodred Corn
1.1 Thayeri Kingsnakes
0.1 Reeve's Turtle
0.2 Amstaff's
1.0 Pudytat

Also keep in mind how complicated pigmentation can be. Different combinations of melanins can produce a wide range of colors, and that doesn't even include the erythin, xanthin, etc. So I agree, we humans like to oversimplify things.

Thanks,
Ed

>>What I meant there was a more in depth understanding of DNA and codons. We still don't know what human codons code for blue vs. brown eyes etc. If we don't know it for humans there's no way the world of science knows what genes codes for color with snakes. "Simple Recessive" is a relative term. Nothing in genetics is truly 'simple'. True it usually adheres to the punnette square statistics, but there's now way to know where on the chromosome there's a codon for hypo and if there's only one or more than that. How do those genes interact... etc. I know this is going to sound a bit presumptuous and for that I'm sorry, but I'm in grad school for Organic Chemistry with a specialty in molecular biology and natural products... so for this one I do know what I'm talking about (I said that just so you would know I'm not just blowing smoke), now whether or not I stated it clearly above... I can never be sure... LOL!!! Us sciencey types are always on our own planet verbally and we think we're saying stuff that makes sense, but it never does... LOL. For that I apologize.