Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A couple days ago I caught one of my top producing moms eating a fuzzy from another moms litter.

She was pregnant and heavy with babies, So I isolated her from the rest.

Even though I wanted to kill her right then, If I could have caught her giving birth, I could have moved the pinky babies over to the good moms cage, but no luck.

Last night as we slept she had her litter, by the time I woke up, she had killed all of them off.

Needless to say I was very upset with her, so she got to meet my Pueblan for lunch.

Any reason a perfectly good female breeder would go insane like this? Anguish from having all her babies pulled constantly?

Is there any way to keep my other moms from losing it?

Peace,
Wayne A. Harvey
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1.2.9 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garter Snakes
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - common Garter - Princess
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua"
0.1.10 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly Racers
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
0.1.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
1.2.0. Feline"Felix" "Kaja" & "Silver"
0.1.0. calico RAT
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

I don't know why some mice do this, and some don't, but I've seen this with my breeders from time to time. When I see which one's doing it, it gets immediately "whacked" and fed-off to a snake. That's what I would call a good example of being counter-productive, and I don't tollerate it AT ALL!

Several friends of mine also breed rodents, and witness the same exact thing now and then. It's just something that happens.

Maybe some get a craving for something that lab chow doesn't offer, who knows, but it's fairly common.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

When I first caught her, it was a 12 day old fuzzy she was killing. Had she not been prego at that time I'd have nailed her right there.

Thankfully I had the common sense to pull her then, She probably would have killed them all off if I had not.

Ages ago when we were farming, I remember dad killing chickens for the same reason, the one that was destroying eggs was either a chicken dinner for us, or tossed (live) into the pig stalls.

The other moms have 2 litters right now, pinky and fuzzy stage, and one little "hold back" hopper that helps out with the chores.

we went to a party yesterday, and I stuffed my pockets at the veggie tray, last night the "good" mice were rewarded with fresh veggie slices that would make an Iguana jealous.

Since I have a moral issue with siblings breeding, I guess a new female will be added to the harem.

Peace,
Wayne

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1.2.9 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garter Snakes
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - common Garter - Princess
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua"
0.1.10 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly Racers
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
0.1.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
1.2.0. Feline"Felix" "Kaja" & "Silver"
0.1.0. calico RAT
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

What are you feeding for fat and protein content? She may have been just worn to a point. Often I have talked to lab block feeders and sellers and they suggest supplementing with cat kibble when the production is heavy.
I just feed high protein dog kibble and generally don't have issues.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

These critters are fed fresh veggies, hamster pellets, trail mix, sunflower seeds, dog biscuits for chewing and protein.

Toys, wheels, you name it... she produced a couple good litters, but went wacko. She was starting to kill off other babies besides her own. So I put her down, fed her off.

I have kids, so every single treat sold, winds up in the cart sooner or later. The kids even put peanut butter on crackers for them.

She did not consume them, she tore out the spines, and left them to die. I cannot accept that, so we are shopping for a new female.

It's still a rewarding practice, for the most part these little rodents are a very functional unit.

Peace,
Wayne A. Harvey

snakes

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1.2.9 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garter Snakes
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - common Garter - Princess
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua"
0.1.10 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly Racers
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
0.1.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
1.2.0. Feline"Felix" "Kaja" & "Silver"
0.1.0. calico RAT
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

I'd have fed her off, too.

Causes could include stress, nutrition or something else. If nutrition, a bottle cap full of powdered milk every couple of days might help.

Paul Hollander

Eating the spines? Or the heads? I've seen breeders eat the heads completely and leave the rest. From what I understood its a recylcing of the nutrients.

By the way, I notced you keep a pile of Red Bellies...any chance you could tell me your secret/how you do it? I never had any luck...and those have always been my all time favorite snake...

No big secret, but it takes dedication. They mostly prefer garden slugs so nightly hunts with a flashlight finding them food is common.

They will take small earthworms, but some specimens have been very fussy and will only eat slugs.

Since slug goo is very sticky, feed only in a substrate free environment, I have lost one once due to coconut hair binding up in the slug goo.

All small snakes have quicker metabolism and will eat / shed and move at a much faster pace than many bigger snakes.

They do not require any basking or heat source, and prefer the same temperatures people do, so room temperature is fine.

Humidity should be low, but not arid.

They spend a lot of time hiding, so don't expect a lot of activity.

Other than that, stick to the basics.. Clean water, clean enclosure and fresh bedding. I prefer eco earth coconut.

Peace,
Wayne A. Harvey

Look at this picture, these snakes have been social for over a year, and interact well.


Some of our snakes

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1.2.9 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garter Snakes
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - common Garter - Princess
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua"
0.1.10 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly Racers
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
0.1.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
1.2.0. Feline"Felix" "Kaja" & "Silver"
0.1.0. calico RAT
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

I was told when I needed this fellow identified that he was a "Red Belly". Is that the same as your red belly racers, or different species?

I found him in South Carolina at a national park, only photographed him and watched him wander off. There were lots of slugs, snails, and tiny salamanders in the area.

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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake (Eddie Gein)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Black Cat (Shadowfax)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)
1.0 Tennessee Walking Horse (Durango)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

I believe the currently accepted common name is the "Red-bellied Snake" but most people call it a redbelly and in some places it's called a redbelly racer. Local names can be just about anything which is why it's good to know the latin names

Yep, I grew up calling milk snakes "spotted adders"

Actually RACERS are rather large compared to red bellies.

The Latin names are in my signature...

Peace,
Wayne A. Harvey

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1.2.9 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garter Snakes
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - common Garter - Princess
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua"
0.1.10 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly Racers
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
0.1.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
1.2.0. Feline"Felix" "Kaja" & "Silver"
0.1.0. calico RAT
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

Of course the Spotted Adder is HIGHLY venomous and must be killed at all cost...

:/

In the northeast it seems like the spotted adder is a more common name than the milksnake and lots of people also believe it to be an extremely dangerous species. I was going to mention that as another local name in my last post but forgot entirely. Thanks for brining it up

Over the years I have made deals with local neighbors, before you get the shovel out of the garage, call me.

The (insert colorful name here) across the street chopped up a gorgeous neonate last summer.

THEN asked me over to identify the REMAINS...

It was tough being nice to him after that, but he knows to call next time.

Peace,
Wayne A. Harvey

Some of our snakes

-----
1.2.9 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garter Snakes
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - common Garter - Princess
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua"
0.1.10 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly Racers
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
0.1.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
1.2.0. Feline"Felix" "Kaja" & "Silver"
0.1.0. calico RAT
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

Whack!, whack!, whack!,GRRR!,.....darn it!,...whack!.....ring!, ring!........."Hi Wayne, it's your neighbor from across the street, could you come over a sec, and indentify this snake for me?,........it's harmless, right?"

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

This was a real honey of a milk too

Pearly white with darkish maroon spots...

Trust me, if it was not in pieces, we would be looking at photos of it right now. (spoiled rotten in an oversize enclosure, eating gourmet mice and watching animal planet all day)

It wasn't really his fault completely. He just bought the house, moved here from the city.

What he described was the classic bluff. reared up, shaking its tail. His city slicker friend told him it was a rattlesnake!

If only I had followed my first impulse to walk over and help unload the Lowes delivery.....(the reason they opened the barn)

Peace,
Wayne

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1.2.9 Storeria dekayi Casper, Xena, Athena, & Kids
0.0.2 Thamnophis marcianus - Checkered Garter Snakes
0.0.1 Thamnophis sirtalis - common Garter - Princess
0.0.1 Nerodia sipedon - Water Snake - "Aqua"
0.1.10 Storeria occipitomaculata - Red Belly Racers
0.0.1 Amelanistic Corn Snake "CY" Juvinile CB
0.1.0. Pueblan Milk snake "Oreo" adult CB
0.1.0. Green Anole "Crystal" WC
1.0.0. K9 "ACE" Black Cockapoo
1.2.0. Feline"Felix" "Kaja" & "Silver"
0.1.0. calico RAT
2.4.?? Mice - Feeder farm
More herps than I could ever list out back on the land.

Doesn't EVERY snake that rattles it's tail, mean it's deadly poisonous, and will "sting" you with it's tail??..............some people!..LOL!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

The sad thing is that the behavior is supposed to be a SURVIVAL trait. It says "go for my tail and leave my head alone so I can escape while you grab the wrong end" not "hit me over the face with a shovel"

LOL!,....Good sarcastic way of putting it,.....JUST as I would!

The downfall of snakes is the fact that they don't have big brown eyes, and soft fluffy fur,...otherwise, there would have been police lined up all the way around the block!..LOL!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

They could also benefit from having cute names, like "Caring-bear Snake" or "Cuddlesnake"... Fur is probably their best fur. I'll suggest it at the next evolution conference.

Anyway, has anybody else noticed that this topic is supposed to be in response to another thread in an entirely different forum? I noticed a couple days ago and totally forgot...

That this one came from a different forum, but then again, I see this same "TYPE" of threads all the time,.....you know,.....John Q. Public, snake assassin?,.......quite common, and they probably make up about 95 percent of our population.
Very sad, AND ignorant.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"