Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Wow, I'm becoming more & more aware of this phenomenon, but my notes from two recent acquisitions tell the tale. I exchanged the female splendida and decided to obtain a male Nigrita based on my most desired traits:

1. active & curious
2. explores often
3. strong feeding instinct

During first handling, he musked slightly and rattled his tail. Once picked up he calmed, but he remained spirited and had to be held firmly at times.

16:25
Arrival in new home, Sonoran Desert biome. It was such an overwhelming change for the hatchling that he hid for awhile.

18:17
Burrowing in front, left corner. Tail is the only part visible.

18:39
Climbing in rear, left corner on highest object, the sprig of sagebrush. He sees my shadow moving, I'm 2-3 feet from him typing at computer, yet he's not flinching nor hiding.

19:57
Exploring in rear, right corner.

20:08
Peering out from crack in between rocks in rock pile.

20:16
Crawling on rock ledge or rock pile.

21:42
Climbing on shrubs in right, rear corner.

21:48
Climbing on branches in left, front corner. For quite awhile, he has been exploring the perimeter and many inner areas of his new home.

22:45
Climbing glass in rear, right corner. I took him out for some handling & exercise. He crawled cautiously on my arm and did not usually require a firm grasp. Generally did not jerk and was calm.

He was active & exploring until after 23:00!

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I think that I've made a exceptional choice, and I'm very pleased that I swapped for him. He is so much more active & curious than the shy Desert Kingsnake female, Apache, who stayed hidden for most of her 3-day visit.
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I am not i agree that your seeing a male vs. female trait?? i think it may just be a snake vs. snake trait... or even more so a that day of the week with that snake trait.

Over time i would be willing to bet that males and females "explore" about the snake amount of time.

~ Mike Russo

"I am not i agree" ... I meant to say "I do not agree"

I guess that's what you get when you type at 5:30 in the morning with a baby on your lap!

~ Mike Russo

>>>"Over time i would be willing to bet that males and females "explore" about the snake amount of time."

There's also another funny "typo" you missed in your original post, and I got a little chuckle out of it as well. Don't feel bad, it happens to EVERYONE!

best regards, Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

WOW.. Now that is some funny stuff!

I guess it's time to come clean with you guys... As a father of 3 children under 5 years old it is fair to say that my wife and i don't really get out of the house on a social level all that much.. Well, last night with a babysitter on hand, we went out with some friends and for the first time in a long time I had a few too many drinks.. Of course this was in no way my fault, as I was clearly over-served!

Then at about 5:30am while still a bit tipsy, I was up feeding my 9 month old son and surfing the kingsnake forums with my free hand.. Which I now know does not work well for me at all!

The moral of this story is DON'T POST WHILE INTOXICATED (PWI)

~ Mike Russo

dang..is that a new rule?..What next?..no posting while naked?!! I'm so S.O.L.
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Richard Evans

no not THAT one

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I'm hearing the same results from many people, across species. I even hear the same confirmation from pet store employees.

Generally, males are more active and curious. Females often tend to hide more, and enjoy being handled less.

(I understand that with any trait, it depends greatly on the individual more than the species, and usually more than the gender.)

Of course, folks also have to understand that the time of year will also play a HUGE roll in their activity, with males roaming around MUCH more often than a female would in the mating months.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Both of my new arrivals are hatchlings; the one is not even a year old. Sexual reproduction is the furthest thing from their minds & instincts right now.

Thus, a true test of gender-based behavior in a similar environment, since mating behavior is not an issue.

As awkward as this truth is to admit, the evidence supports my theory more & more...

Sorry to be blunt, but No.

You are basing this on a laughably small sample (2 snakes) and almost no time frame whatsoever. And you are doing it with a snake in a brand new cage. Of course it will explore its new environment for a few hours.

After many years of keeping hundreds of colubrids I can assure you that males and females are equally active and curious and each snake has a personality in response to handling.

As doug said, time of year plays a big role. Females will usually come out of brumation and be looking for foo ALL THE TIME. A few weeks later males will begin crauising their cages looking for females. Then after females lay they will be hungry again and cruise more often.

1. These are captive-bred hatchlings. They were not brumated, and mating behavior is not an issue at all.

2. My theory is not based on 2 specimens and a short time frame. As stated in prior text, I've been hearing these same comments from MANY persons, from MANY locations, on MANY occasions.

(It's also quite true of Humans, in general. How often do you see females who took off and went hiking, hot tubbing or exploring by themself? Now, how often have you seen males do that behavior?? Thanks for confirming my point.)

When you have evidence that disputes my theory, I'll be happy to reconsider.

Ameron
Portland, OR

I have no idea who your "MANY" people include... I know you mentioned "pet store employees" who IMHO are usually not the sharpest herpers on the planet... But, in the 20 plus years that i have been keeping countless numbers of snakes including the hundred or so that i have in my collection right now, i see absolutely no difference in behavior between males & females???

I tell you what, to prove your thoery go purchase 20 or 30 snakes and do not sex them. Then on thier behavior alone separate them into males & females.. Then probe or pop them and if you even come close to being right I would be very surprised.
When you complete your study let us know what the results are..

Also, compairing female snakes to human females is insane!

~ Mike Russo

"Also, compairing female snakes to human females is insane!"

Absolutely, we have *way* more issues than snakes.
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Holly

0.1 Lavender California Kingsnake (Lizzie Borden) (missing )
1.0 Florida Kingsnake (Eddie Gein)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Black Cat (Shadowfax)
1.0 Egyptian Arabian (Bagan)
1.0 Tennessee Walking Horse (Durango)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

Your answer was way simpler!..LOL!!!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I agree whole heartedly, it might "seem" this way for many reasons, but as we all know, this would take MANY, MANY, MANY snakes, under an identically "controlled" environment to conclude anything that is even remotely one way, or the other.

I'd just LOVE to see someone sex 100 snakes by behavior alone!..LOL!,....of course they have a 50/50 shot at it too. To be authentic, you'd have to do this many times as well. If you continually came up with the same answer with 100 snakes, over a prolonged period,...then, and ONLY then would it get my attention.

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>>1. These are captive-bred hatchlings. They were not brumated, and mating behavior is not an issue at all.

What does that have to do with anything? They are still just two snakes. Go learn some statistics.

>>>>2. My theory is not based on 2 specimens and a short time frame. As stated in prior text, I've been hearing these same comments from MANY persons, from MANY locations, on MANY occasions.

I don't care who told you stupid information. Do you know how many people read bad books, or talk with other novices and spread entirely incorrect rumors in this hobby.

>>>(It's also quite true of Humans, in general. How often do you see females who took off and went hiking, hot tubbing or exploring by themself? Now, how often have you seen males do that behavior?? Thanks for confirming my point.)

I know lots of rad hiking chicks who would beat you sensless for a coment like that. And more importantly, snakes aren't humans.

>>>When you have evidence that disputes my theory, I'll be happy to reconsider.

And my evidence...how about experience, something you obviously don't have otherwise this wouldn't be an issue. Go learn about your snakes before spouting off useless theories and rumors.

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

The problems with the way you're presenting your information are what makes your theory sound laughable.

You have no credible sources - pet store employees are rarely trained and often make things up, and "many people" is hardly a source at all.
Since you have no truly credible sources, we then look to what you have actually observed - in two animals in 1 day and 3 day time period. Like someone pointed out, that is too small of a sample size for you to be able to apply it to the general population.

And, there was some information you seemed confused about - even young animals will sometimes engage in mating behavior, and captive bred animals still have all the wiring their wild cousins do, and will respond to seasons in the same way. Snakes are not domesticated; they are kept in captivity.

That being said, I have one female california kingsnake that is the most active snake I own out of all 11 of mine. She has definate habits (basking in the morning, drinking at night, hunting once the lights go off as well as in the morning when she's hungry), and is a very calm, tractable snake when I have her out of her cage.
I have met kingsnakes of either gender that both fit the model you described as well as debunked it.

And, last but not least, how did you know for sure the genders of your snakes? Were they probed or popped? And did someone knowledgeable do it, and what made you think they were knowledgeable?
Note that with probing, if you use too small a probe, you can actually puncture the inside of the female, and get a false male. You can incorrectly pop a male and believe you have a female. Neither method is foolproof with young snakes, but popping is easier with true hatchlings (less than 2 months) and probing is easier with larger (over 2 feet) snakes.
You may not even really have had a male and female.

~jenny
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)